Losing my faith

[sb81]

I'm in basically the exact position as Adam and have been for about 4 months now. I am scientifically-minded and value logic and reason.

Hello leftrightleftrightleft, I would also consider myself scientifically minded who values logic and reason. When my faith was faltering and I aimed to strengthen it, logic and reasoning had to fit before I could comfortably rest. During my initial search, I was also praying regularly and earnestly to God who I believe is the main one responsible for putting the pieces together for me and giving me that rest. I will come back to this after addressing your next statement.

Similarily I am struggling with the idea of what "faith" is and why Christians hold faith as such a virtue. Faith as virtue seems like one of the basic tenets that you need to value in order to be a Christian. I find that in order to have faith, you have to have faith.

I can see why you are struggling with this term. For one, there seems to be much confusion on what faith actually is, and I believe there could be many discussions, sermons, etc on what exactly faith is.

I hope you will agree with me, or at least understand my point of view that faith is far more than just a mere leap in the dark. I feel too many people treat faith like a guessing game, like playing a set of lottery numbers and having "faith" that that set of numbers will win them the jackpot.

For brevity's sake, since this is a Christian forum, on a Christian question, let us turn to the Bible to get the answer of what faith is.

Hebrews 11 opens with the statement - "1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible."

A leap in the dark is not assurance. Now this probably didn't tell you what faith is, but hopefully, if you do not agree already, you will now agree that faith is more than taking a leap into the dark. I will now stop going off on a tangent unless you wish to discuss "what is faith" more which again, could be a totally different discussion.

To tie the previous two points together and apply them to myself, I also was unable to see "faith" as some leap in the dark that I had to take in order to be a believer. I also needed more compelling evidence than the Bible alone in order for me to rest in my beliefs.

The point where we may possibly differentiate is that I could never accept the atheistic view point. By default, I cannot believe that we are some cosmic accident and that by some unfathomable odds the Universe turned out this way for absolutely no reason. Just mere chance, "just because." This may mean that I am naturally more open to the idea of intelligent design than you are.

From that starting point, the additional evidence I was looking for that convinced me the Bible was worth taking seriously is the modern day Christian Apologists and Philosophers such as William Lane Craig, Frank Turek, Norm Geisler, etc. There are also Christian Scientists such as Michael Behe, or a bit more modern, Stephen Myer who argue cell and DNA complexity points to a designer for life and it's progression rather than random unintelligent natural forces.

If you are not familiar with these folks than Dr. Craig's website - reasonable faith dot org would be an excellent place to start, imo. If you are interested in the Biology standpoint, Stephen Meyer has a recent book "Signature in the Cell" which I have not actually read yet but will be purchasing shortly.

A quick summary of all these sources is as follows...

1 - The scientific theory known as the Big Bang is a model illustrating the rapid expansion of the early Universe from an early highly condense state. This gives strong implications that the Universe had a definitive beginning and is not the eternal source of our existence.

2 - The constant expansion of our Universe is highly tuned in such a way that if any of over a hundred parameters were to be changed, some by even the slightest most minuscule amount, the Universe, Earth and it's inhabitants would not be the way they are today. A change in some of those parameters means the Universe, rather than constantly expanding would have collapsed in on itself.

3 - Complexity of Cells, Life and DNA. DNA is a coded sequence of information
made of up a 4 character "alphabet." It has been said that for DNA (in which life is formed) to have been randomly formed by unintelligent natural forces is similar to randomly placing large amounts of 0s and 1s together and producing functional computer programs. The biggest flaw to this comparison is that in native Computer language there are only 0s and 1s, and in DNA there are 4 characters in it's alphabet. Even more so, there are no computer programs even close to the complexity and length that can compare to the DNA of a life form.

4 - The evidence surrounding Jesus Christ. New Testament is the most historically reliable writings in regards to ancient manuscript backing by a long shot. The Early church flourished under heavy persecution for hundreds of years. There are numerous writings in history that you can trace right to the Apostles from the Early Church, etc.

Some of these helped me to reconcile my thoughts on science and Christianity. I also had to come to the realization that for years people have been pushing off their interpretations of Scripture as Scripture itself. For instance, young earth creationists.

Also, aiki finishes off the paragraph saying that we shouldn't ignore doubts...but the rest of her post seems to imply that we should ignore doubts because they lead you down a bad road. If doubt (aka free thought) leads you down a bad road, then maybe you're just being ignorant of the fallaciousness of Christianity?

Even though Christianity is one person, namely Jesus Christ, it is still surrounded by a wide range of subjects and topics. It is easy to miss the point and take your eyes off of Jesus and start digging up and feeding your doubts. For many people, this has been enough to strip them away from their faith. I wouldn't necessarily call it "wrong" to explore your doubts and seek to resolve them, however, extreme caution should be taken to assure you are not once again taken captive by the lies of this world. In my opinion, Christianity is the most logical, reasonable world view.

I have personally found guidance in the following verse from Paul where he describes wearing the armor of God.

"Ephesians 6:16
...above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one."

Warm Regards

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

Hi,
Thanks for replying

One thing you should keep in mind is the Old Testament is mainly aimed towards the nation Israel. Please do not misunderstand me in thinking I'm saying the OT does not apply to gentiles or Christians; however, much of the OT is God's law and commands for governing a nation, namely the nation of Israel. Harsh laws are required to keep a little leaven from spoiling the whole batch. It also includes much warfare between nations which there is none in the NT. Much of the instruction in the NT is for the follower of Jesus Christ. Christians are not called to regulate and govern a nation like the Children of Israel were in the OT.

Furthermore, many people like to quote the friendly love verses in the NT and make it seem like that is all there is in the NT. The Lord Jesus had some of the strongest words in the entire Bible and will be the Judge at the end of the age throwing unbelievers into the Lake of Fire.

For a while, I was able to understand that, but there's something about the cultural explanation that still seems to bother me. For example, it seems in some cases if God had to command war, he could have ordered the Israelites to spare the innocent children. I guess you could say that those allowing those children to survive would be 'leaven' to the Israelites, but couldn't God just say, "They're innocent - get over it and let them live?" Also, I still have a hard time seeing how stoning disobedient children is necessary to keep a nation in order - it just seems a bit extreme, you know?

I understand some places where the NT has strong words and there are some instances where I go "Wow!", where'd that come from? For example, Ananias and Saphire being struck dead in Acts. But even with those instances, many of the morals set down in the NT seem to conflict with instances in the OT.

Also, try to keep in mind, God's omniscience. We have a hard time with our limited mental capacity understanding an infinite God. Even though I may not understand it, I try not to question his actions and commands when he orders the extermination of a nation, including their children. However, I believe if you delve deeper into this you will see how evil some of these people were that God chose to destroy. IE - Sodom and Gomorrah.

That sounds like a really humble approach to take, and one I really wish I could take. Where I have a hard time with this though is that it could be applied to a god of any other religion. Those religions could have horrible things in them, but we'd just ignore them because that god is 'beyond our comprehension' and 'infinite'. It seems to me that there's got to be a way to know the God of Christianity by His goodness to separate Him from any other claims at infinite godhood by other religions and supernatural beings, otherwise we run the risk of placing our faith in any such claim.

Futher, further more... I would suggest getting a strong foundation in Jesus before investigating these other "issues" that may be cleared up in the future when your faith is stronger. An objective look at the evidence of Jesus Christ should point you towards Jesus unless one is overly skeptical.

I think that's where I was at about a year ago. I definitely had stronger faith, and a lot of questions and issues; when I went to go explore those questions, and expected answers, my doubts grew. Maybe I didn't have enough of a strong foundation as I thought I did then.


Thanks for your response

 

[sb81]

For a while, I was able to understand that, but there's something about the cultural explanation that still seems to bother me. For example, it seems in some cases if God had to command war, he could have ordered the Israelites to spare the innocent children. I guess you could say that those allowing those children to survive would be 'leaven' to the Israelites, but couldn't God just say, "They're innocent - get over it and let them live?" Also, I still have a hard time seeing how stoning disobedient children is necessary to keep a nation in order - it just seems a bit extreme, you know?

Well, there is undeniably a cultural difference between the two of us living in the US and the ancient Israelis. Even some countries today would see this as appropriate.

Also the verses mentioning stoning disobedient children, I'm not sure what you are picturing here, but children is actually "son" which is just the closest they could come between Hebrew and English. The next verses mention if the son is a drunkard. From what I gather, this is not talking about some 5 year old kid who doesn't want to feed the animals.

I still agree this is very extreme to us US citizens who seem to have a hard time putting mass murderers down, but I think we are starting to see the negative effects of what happens when parents let their kids do whatever they want, especially in the US.

That sounds like a really humble approach to take, and one I really wish I could take. Where I have a hard time with this though is that it could be applied to a god of any other religion. Those religions could have horrible things in them, but we'd just ignore them because that god is 'beyond our comprehension' and 'infinite'. It seems to me that there's got to be a way to know the God of Christianity by His goodness to separate Him from any other claims at infinite godhood by other religions and supernatural beings, otherwise we run the risk of placing our faith in any such claim.

My main motivation to get closer to God was the evidence surrounding me rather than looking at the religions and seeing which one "fit my style" so to speak. This is God's universe and what he says goes. We are to fall in line and obey and worship rather than setup a unitarian liberal state of acceptance. Yes, Jesus wants all sinners to come to him by faith alone and receive his grace and eternal life, but that saving faith is not alone. A child of God should be growing and becoming more Christ like.

Thanks for your response

No problem, you seem very sincere, and I pray that you will ultimately find peace and rest.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Hello leftrightleftrightleft, I would also consider myself scientifically minded who values logic and reason. When my faith was faltering and I aimed to strengthen it, logic and reasoning had to fit before I could comfortably rest. During my initial search, I was also praying regularly and earnestly to God who I believe is the main one responsible for putting the pieces together for me and giving me that rest. I will come back to this after addressing your next statement.

Glad to hear there are others that think like me

Hebrews 11 opens with the statement - "1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible."

I don't want to derail the thread but if faith is the assurance of things hoped for then what if my hopes are different than the hopes of mainstream Christian theology? What if I hope to reincarnate? If faith is conviction of things not seen, again, what if my convictions for things not seen are beliefs contrary to Christianity? What if I have strong conviction that Jesus ISN'T God, despite never seeing that he was or wasn't?

The last part: "By faith we understand that the Universe was created by the Word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." THAT strikes a chord with me. But, if I recall, the translation of "Word" is Logos and if you look into the Jewish cultural history of the word "Logos" you'll find that that word can mean a thousand things and furthermore, it can be stretched towards Eastern mysticism pretty easily. (Have you ever read anything about Philo of Alexandria? He was a Jew who talked at length about the Logos and, at times, his quotes could be aligned with the Buddha's fairly easily.) What is the "Word of God" to you?

The point where we may possibly differentiate is that I could never accept the atheistic view point. By default, I cannot believe that we are some cosmic accident and that by some unfathomable odds the Universe turned out this way for absolutely no reason. Just mere chance, "just because." This may mean that I am naturally more open to the idea of intelligent design than you are.

I have always believed in some God-figure. Some deity or divinity that is at work in the world. The reason I have faith in THAT is because I feel I have experienced it and have a relationship with that "God" idea. However, I'm finding very little reason to attach that experience with Jesus. I don't know if I could ever be an atheist because there is so much improbable things that would have to happen in order for atheism to be true. But I also don't know if I could ever truly be a Christian because there are so many improbable things that would have to happen in order for it to be true.

From that starting point, the additional evidence I was looking for that convinced me the Bible was worth taking seriously is the modern day Christian Apologists and Philosophers such as William Lane Craig, Frank Turek, Norm Geisler, etc. There are also Christian Scientists such as Michael Behe, or a bit more modern, Stephen Myer who argue cell and DNA complexity points to a designer for life and it's progression rather than random unintelligent natural forces.

I have read much of CS Lewis' work, as well as books by Lee Strobel, Rob Bell, Norm Geisler (and even a few by Marcus Borg, although I don't really know if he's a Christian or not). I'm also currently reading a few books by non-Christian Bible Scholars (Robert Wright for example). I've watched a few Youtube Videos on Stephen Myer. I've read nearly the whole Bible as well as a large chunk of the Quran and the entire Bhagavad Gita. So its not like I'm not knowledgeable. And, interestingly enough, it often seems that the less knowledgeable a person is about their religion AND other faith systems, the more devout they are (although maybe that's too brash a claim).

A quick summary of all these sources is as follows...

I'm aware of all these arguments and I agree with all of them. But these don't support Christianity, these arguments support theism. I believe in one God who placed the universe in motion. I just don't see why Jesus is necessarily God. And if that fact is so unbelievable (after all I don't even know what "God incarnate" really tangibly means), why not forget that part of it and continue to hold onto the parts that make sense to me?

Some of these helped me to reconcile my thoughts on science and Christianity. I also had to come to the realization that for years people have been pushing off their interpretations of Scripture as Scripture itself. For instance, young earth creationists.

This brings up Biblical interpretation which is inherently subjective and it logically follows that the Bible cannot be true because of its capacity to be subjectively interpreted.

Even though Christianity is one person, namely Jesus Christ, it is still surrounded by a wide range of subjects and topics. It is easy to miss the point and take your eyes off of Jesus and start digging up and feeding your doubts. For many people, this has been enough to strip them away from their faith. I wouldn't necessarily call it "wrong" to explore your doubts and seek to resolve them, however, extreme caution should be taken to assure you are not once again taken captive by the lies of this world. In my opinion, Christianity is the most logical, reasonable world view.

Perhaps you've realized through this post that it isn't the other subjects and topics that I disagree with, its the divinity of Jesus that doesn't make any sense. Because (and I feel like almost everyone would disagree with me on this), most of Christian philosophy, theology and practice does not require Jesus to be God. He can still be Messiah and not be God (because Jews don't think the Messiah will be God), he can still be a moral compass by which to live our lives.

I have personally found guidance in the following verse from Paul where he describes wearing the armor of God.

"Ephesians 6:16
...above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one."

Warm Regards

Thanks! I've always liked that quote too.

Here's another quote that resonates with my scientific mind:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." (Buddha...)

 

[sb81]

I don't want to derail the thread but if faith is the assurance of things hoped for then what if my hopes are different than the hopes of mainstream Christian theology? What if I hope to reincarnate? If faith is conviction of things not seen, again, what if my convictions for things not seen are beliefs contrary to Christianity? What if I have strong conviction that Jesus ISN'T God, despite never seeing that he was or wasn't?

People have faith in a lot of things, and that does not necessarily mean they are all true. I believe you are bringing this up due to the word assurance in the above verse you took that as anything you have faith in, is guaranteed to be correct. I do not necessarily believe that is what this verse is trying to say, and obviously everything people have faith in does not mean that everyone is "right." My point was just to illustrate that the Bible does not say faith is a leap in the dark.

The last part: "By faith we understand that the Universe was created by the Word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." THAT strikes a chord with me. But, if I recall, the translation of "Word" is Logos and if you look into the Jewish cultural history of the word "Logos" you'll find that that word can mean a thousand things and furthermore, it can be stretched towards Eastern mysticism pretty easily. (Have you ever read anything about Philo of Alexandria? He was a Jew who talked at length about the Logos and, at times, his quotes could be aligned with the Buddha's fairly easily.) What is the "Word of God" to you?

I refer to the Bible as the Word of God. Of course, Jesus is referred to as the Word as well.

I have always believed in some God-figure. Some deity or divinity that is at work in the world. The reason I have faith in THAT is because I feel I have experienced it and have a relationship with that "God" idea. However, I'm finding very little reason to attach that experience with Jesus. I don't know if I could ever be an atheist because there is so much improbable things that would have to happen in order for atheism to be true. But I also don't know if I could ever truly be a Christian because there are so many improbable things that would have to happen in order for it to be true.

Thank you for clarifying your position. The way I look at it is if there is an intelligence Creator who wishes to reveal himself to us, Christianity makes the most sense from an evidence and logical standpoint.

I have read much of CS Lewis' work, as well as books by Lee Strobel, Rob Bell, Norm Geisler (and even a few by Marcus Borg, although I don't really know if he's a Christian or not). I'm also currently reading a few books by non-Christian Bible Scholars (Robert Wright for example). I've watched a few Youtube Videos on Stephen Myer. I've read nearly the whole Bible as well as a large chunk of the Quran and the entire Bhagavad Gita. So its not like I'm not knowledgeable. And, interestingly enough, it often seems that the less knowledgeable a person is about their religion AND other faith systems, the more devout they are (although maybe that's too brash a claim).

Thank you again for the clarification. It seems you have certainly done your homework.

I'm aware of all these arguments and I agree with all of them. But these don't support Christianity, these arguments support theism. I believe in one God who placed the universe in motion. I just don't see why Jesus is necessarily God. And if that fact is so unbelievable (after all I don't even know what "God incarnate" really tangibly means), why not forget that part of it and continue to hold onto the parts that make sense to me?

I believe point 4 supports Christianity. As a layman, I also do not know why Jesus necessarily has to be God in order to be the Messiah. However, the Bible clearly states he is God. One of my "principals" so to speak, is that I have two choices... take the Bible as the Word of God, or buy into some of the skepticism of man against the Bible. I have chosen to take the Bible as the Word of God because the other option seems like a lose lose situation to me.

This brings up Biblical interpretation which is inherently subjective and it logically follows that the Bible cannot be true because of its capacity to be subjectively interpreted.

I don't necessarily agree with this. When I interpret and process other people's interpretations, I try to keep an open mind and remember that no human by his/herself has perfect interpretation of the Bible. I believe there are many plain truths in the Bible that can not be reasonably interpreted incorrectly... These just so happen to be some of the most important messages in scripture.

Perhaps you've realized through this post that it isn't the other subjects and topics that I disagree with, its the divinity of Jesus that doesn't make any sense. Because (and I feel like almost everyone would disagree with me on this), most of Christian philosophy, theology and practice does not require Jesus to be God. He can still be Messiah and not be God (because Jews don't think the Messiah will be God), he can still be a moral compass by which to live our lives.

As I said above, I also do not quite follow the explanations where Jesus HAD to be God or his death couldn't have saved us. However, as I also said above, I do take the Bible as the Word of God, which plainly says he was God, so therefore believe it.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." (Buddha...)

One of the compelling reasons why I believe in Christianity is due to the willingness to subject themselves to persecution, torture and death of the Apostles and Early Church. One of the main attributes of the average man is the desire for power, money, material possessions etc and many would have no problem acquiring these things through dishonest means. I would say one of the few attributes that matches and even outweighs this attribute in man is fear of one's own pain, suffering and death. The Apostles and Early Church were willing to go against the two most prominent attributes of human nature for their beliefs.

This should leave one to believe that the Apostles and Early Church undoubtedly believed the Jesus was the Christ, and that they witnessed something that completely rewrote human nature for the earliest Christians.

I appreciate your time and it seems like you have most certainly given the evidence an objective look.

Warm Regards and may God bless you.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

Well, there is undeniably a cultural difference between the two of us living in the US and the ancient Israelis. Even some countries today would see this as appropriate.

Also the verses mentioning stoning disobedient children, I'm not sure what you are picturing here, but children is actually "son" which is just the closest they could come between Hebrew and English. The next verses mention if the son is a drunkard. From what I gather, this is not talking about some 5 year old kid who doesn't want to feed the animals.

I still agree this is very extreme to us US citizens who seem to have a hard time putting mass murderers down, but I think we are starting to see the negative effects of what happens when parents let their kids do whatever they want, especially in the US.

I guess my issue is if it was justifiable to stone children for being disobedient then, why isn't it justifiable to stone children now? You could claim that it would be okay nowadays, but I think that's pretty ludicrous, and also hard to fit with the moral standards Jesus taught in the New Testament. For example, in the New Testament, it says that those who don't work shouldn't eat. That seems a lot less harsh than stoning a disobedient child for not wanting to work. Sorry if I'm coming off as overly inflexible on this point, but I can't get over what seems to be a big discrepancy here. I feel like if I admit both stoning children was acceptable then and that it isn't now, then I can't claim Christianity is morally objective and that scares me. Plus, I'd be admitting it's okay to stone children, which I can't bring myself to do.

My main motivation to get closer to God was the evidence surrounding me rather than looking at the religions and seeing which one "fit my style" so to speak. This is God's universe and what he says goes. We are to fall in line and obey and worship rather than setup a unitarian liberal state of acceptance. Yes, Jesus wants all sinners to come to him by faith alone and receive his grace and eternal life, but that saving faith is not alone. A child of God should be growing and becoming more Christ like.

I think I may have written what I was trying to say confusingly, since I meant something entirely different than what I think you understood. I definitely agree with you that you shouldn't just look around for a religion you like and pick it. If I were a non-believer and looking for the correct religion, I'd do it on the basis of evidence and not because one fit my style. I realize Christianity makes mutually exclusive claims, as do most religions, and for me, it's a matter of making sure I've picked the religion that has correct claims (or the other possibility which I dread: that none have valid claims). Many of my peers hold to a morally relativistic stance on these matters and tend towards a unitarian outlook. I'm not one of them. I'm a very strong believer in objective morality, and that there's one truth out there, not multiple versions. Postmodernism, moral relativism, "this is my truth, that's your truth" - they all leave me feeling very uneasy.

What I meant to say was that from the perspective of a non-believer, it'd be difficult to decide to determine which religion had an ultimately good God if all the gods in those religions claimed to be beyond the understanding of humans. How are we to determine the goodness of any God if we can't understand God? If God is beyond our understanding (and so are the other gods that other religions claim is true), then how are we to tell which one is true and ultimately moral? Before we make the assumption that just because God tells us to do something, it's moral, it seems we first have to know whether God is moral or not. If it's impossible to determine that and if God is behind our understanding, then doesn't it require a leap of faith that God is moral and whatever he says is moral? I can't see a rational way to understand that.

No problem, you seem very sincere, and I pray that you will ultimately find peace and rest.

Thanks - I hope I get some peace and rest too. Having a faith crisis is definitely stressful and exhausting, and I wish it would end. This one has been going for several months and to have huge unresolved questions like this is really taxing.

 

[sb81]

Hello, I hope you do not get the feeling I'm trying to be argumentative, and I understand there are some issues just cannot budge on or get past. I'm honestly just trying to help.

I guess my issue is if it was justifiable to stone children for being disobedient then, why isn't it justifiable to stone children now?

My feeling on this goes back to the different commandments to the Nation of Israel vs the Church, the leaven and the whole batch. I realize you already said you have a hard time agreeing with that explanation, so perhaps this is why you have been unable to move past this.

You could claim that it would be okay nowadays, but I think that's pretty ludicrous, and also hard to fit with the moral standards Jesus taught in the New Testament.

In the US, yes, but I'm not sure if you heard the semi-recent news story that a Middle Eastern country (Iran I believe?) was going to be stoned because she committed adultery.

I think I may have written what I was trying to say confusingly, since I meant something entirely different than what I think you understood. I definitely agree with you that you shouldn't just look around for a religion you like and pick it. If I were a non-believer and looking for the correct religion, I'd do it on the basis of evidence and not because one fit my style. I realize Christianity makes mutually exclusive claims, as do most religions, and for me, it's a matter of making sure I've picked the religion that has correct claims (or the other possibility which I dread: that none have valid claims). Many of my peers hold to a morally relativistic stance on these matters and tend towards a unitarian outlook. I'm not one of them. I'm a very strong believer in objective morality, and that there's one truth out there, not multiple versions. Postmodernism, moral relativism, "this is my truth, that's your truth" - they all leave me feeling very uneasy.

Thank you for the clarification and I agree.

What I meant to say was that from the perspective of a non-believer, it'd be difficult to decide to determine which religion had an ultimately good God if all the gods in those religions claimed to be beyond the understanding of humans. How are we to determine the goodness of any God if we can't understand God? If God is beyond our understanding (and so are the other gods that other religions claim is true), then how are we to tell which one is true and ultimately moral? Before we make the assumption that just because God tells us to do something, it's moral, it seems we first have to know whether God is moral or not. If it's impossible to determine that and if God is behind our understanding, then doesn't it require a leap of faith that God is moral and whatever he says is moral? I can't see a rational way to understand that.

God would set the moral standards, whatever they are, it's not a question of is God moral. I believe human beings have an innate sense of moral standards, however, as you allude to, some of the OT laws do seem harsh.

Thanks - I hope I get some peace and rest too. Having a faith crisis is definitely stressful and exhausting, and I wish it would end. This one has been going for several months and to have huge unresolved questions like this is really taxing.

I had mine about a year ago Indeed they are very stressful and exhausting.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

Hello, I hope you do not get the feeling I'm trying to be argumentative, and I understand there are some issues just cannot budge on or get past. I'm honestly just trying to help.

I don't think you're being argumentative at all I've actually been worried that I've been coming across as argumentative. I really appreciate the responses your giving and thanks for responding to my posts

God would set the moral standards, whatever they are, it's not a question of is God moral. I believe human beings have an innate sense of moral standards, however, as you allude to, some of the OT laws do seem harsh.

Yeah, I think where I'm having trouble is I need to find some sort of way of verifying the premise of being God being moral. Once I can accept that, I can totally understand how any command God would make would be moral.

I had mine about a year ago Indeed they are very stressful and exhausting.

Yeah, I feel 'stuck' in this in between place, and if I get it wrong either way, the consequences are pretty dire.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi,

First of all, I wanted to say thanks for all of the responses. I'll try to respond a bit to some of the posts without making my reply too lengthy.

@ philovoid

Thanks for what you said - it really resonated with me. If I may ask, how did you manage to regain your faith? I'm looking for ways, but am struggling. Thanks

Well, I haven't regained my 'faith' in the fullest sense of the word. At least, not in a way that modern day American evangelicals would recognize, or likely wish to accept. The kind of belief I have now might be described as something more akin to hope, yet in some ways substantially more than simply wishful thinking. To put it simply, since I am a philosopher, I approach Christianity philosophically. I might say that I am a Christian more by default than by a fully realized 'defense of the faith.' This is so because, after having run through just about every imaginable argument, as well as having studied every major religion, or lack thereof, I feel that Christ still outshines the alternatives, as well as all those seemingly tasty illusions that the world offers each of us every single day of our lives. And if, in the final analysis, all I have is faith the size of a "mustard seed," then that should still be more than enough...

This, in brief, is where I am at. Maybe it will all get cognitively clearer, but my reflections on epistemology tell me it probably won't. It couldn't get much worse. At least I'm pretty sure that when I lay my head down to die, it won't be as an atheist, but as a person whose focus has remained solely on Jesus as my Christ.

If you wish to dialogue further, I'll be happy to oblige.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,

We all have battles to fight to keep our faith. But eventually if you do not give up God will reveal himself to you. I spent many years with only a few miracles, probably one that I could count, maybe two. However now it is not uncommon for God to reveal something to me. I am far from an expert however, I still do not often know when God is doing something, until latter when I can look back and say wow God was in that. Here are some true stories from my life when God has done something. I give it to you to help your faith grow. Also to encourage you to not give up and you will be rewarded, as God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

Some time after the second Gulf War an Australian man Douglas Wood was captured by terrorists in Iraq, who made demands for a ransom or he would be executed. I set about fasting and praying for his release, I said to God "You know where he is....tell me". Three words entered my mind ABC, Bizaar and "A-meal". I thought "I am going crazy what has all that got to do with him. Bizaar I though "this is Bizarre". I thought maybe "A-meal" is a town so I searched a map of Iraq for a town of that name, but found nothing that really matched. Some time latter Douglas Wood was freed by US troops who came across his captors. It was not until latter that I actually discovered what the three words meant. I was on a forum libertyunites.us and came across a post by a user called ABC in the post she appealed to the captors to release Douglas Wood because he had gone to a/or the Bazaar and bought food for homeless people and had provided them with "A-meal". I believe God saw this action too and blessed Douglas Wood with an escape from his captors.

One time I thought about suing some one but felt bad about it because I did not want to give a bad impression about what a Christian is like. So I prayed and asked God to show me clearly what to do. Latter that day I opened my bible at random, selecting a random verse and it opened to 1Co 6:7 "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?" So I knew what God was thinking, no lawsuit. From this I do not believe God was saying the legal system is wrong just this particular action.

At one point in my life I was praying for scientific cures for illnesses like cancer. Because I was on a science kick I thought would it not be fun to create a real life dinosaur. I wanted Jesus just for fun to show me how to create a Real Live Dinosaur, he can show us anything you know if he wants, but when I asked him how to start recreating a Dinosaur. Jesus spoke into my head the sentence "bood", a term I had never heard before. I decided to look it up on the Internet and I found out the following: You see, the children of Semai are taught from an early age, the concept of "bood." If a parent asks a child to do something and the child replies " bood," it means in other words, "I don't feel like doing that," and the matter is closed. Bood means gently No.

One day I was witnessing to a Muslim and he asked me why we ate pork. I used the verse out of the bible which says "It is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth". After some general discussion I finished for the night. I asked God to give me a verse from the bible to encourage me. I opened the bible at random and selected a random verse. It opened to the exact same verse that I had used with the Muslim. The one about food not defiling. So I knew that God was approving of what I had been talking about.

Wisdom, like an inheritance, is a good thing and benefits those who see the sun. - Ecc 7:11 I have always considered it wise to seek God for every thing in life. By this I do not mean "God, what should I eat" or "what should I wear". Not small insignificant things but things that matter. God cares about the things that we see as significant, things that are important to us. There was a point in my life where I was single, unmarried and constantly bombarded by the worlds system of doing things, a system to which I was diametrically opposed. I wanted to find a partner, but was not really sure how to go about it. By trade I am a computer programmer so the Internet was very familiar to me. So I tried internet dating. I remember getting to a point of meeting quite a few people but not really fully clicking with any of them. So I prayed and said out of all the thousands of people that are online in the world there must be some one who could make a good partner for me. So I deliberately listened for God’s voice, and prayed once. The word “Grace” entered my mind. So I typed “Grace” into the search box (that was used to search for profiles). The first profile to come up was of Ru Chen. I had been contacted by Ru Chen once, but we were unable to send messages to one another over the site for some unknown reason. So I tried to contact her again, but again with no success. Some time latter Ru was able to contact me using an email I had sent to her when she had first contacted me, after chatting online for some weeks we decided to meet. We went out together to the movies and just eating out, and seeing each other for some time. Eventually we decided to marry. We went out and bought a ring. Some months latter we got married.

This is a story of God working between me an my wife to get his point accross. One night I was laying on my bed and the verse of scripture came into my mind "With patience possess your souls". Latter that week my wife called me into the bedroom where she was reading the bible not knowing anyting about what I had heard said to me "this is a verse you will like", a thing she never has done before. It was Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.Jas 5:7-8 It was not that I was not being patient, for I was, when talking to my mother about it we both felt it ment, the coming of the LORD is near means his intervention in our lives is near. When we are patient we reap a harvest of his blessing given time. So by faith I believe some time, sooner or latter God will do something if we just wait patiently and obediently for him to act, even if it is his final salvation on his return.

I was praying for all Muslum countries on the 27 of Febuary 2011, and specifically for the president of Iran, which I do whenever I pray for them. That God might bring them to salvation that can only be found in the Love and mercy of Jesus Christ. Like the bible says there is no other name given under heaven or earth by which man can be saved. I went into the kitchen, and asked the LORD for a verse of scripture for him, I opened the bible up to a verse, It was quite condemning, so I said LORD you must be able to have more mercy than that. So I opend up the bible again and it opened to "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14. I was not sure if either of the verses were for him, so I did not send anything. The next day I was having a break from work and thought of him again. So I prayed LORD do you have anything that I can send to bless him with. This time I was on the computer so I used my electronic bible, a different one to the night before. I randomly selected a verse, not looking at where I was choosing and it rested on the exact same verse I had received the night before. "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14 So I knew God had chosen that verse for him. So I sent him the verse of scripture and an encouragement to seek Jesus. Then on the 6th of March a Sunday I set about praying and fasting, and prayed for the president and all the members of his parliment, again I said LORD give me a verse for them, bless them and bring them to you, don't dispose of them, even if they have resisted you, just bless them with salvation. I opened the bible and again, and my finger rested on "Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is." - Amo 5:14 I have to admit I am not sure what God's plans are for them, but I feel these verses sum up the attitude it is wise to have, "The highway of the upright avoids evil; he who guards his way guards his life. Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD". Pro 16:17-20.

This is a verse for you:

Mic 4:5 All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

 

[If Not For Grace]

have so many questions, and so many doubts. At first, I ignored them; my faith was enough, and I had faith there would be answers. But there’s only so many unanswered questions you can have about something before you begin to question the entire thing itself.

Just know that you are in Good Company & that God is not afraid of your questions nor will He rebuke you for asking.

John the Baptist ("no greater born of women") had his moments...sending word to Jesus (When he was in jail & about to be he-headed) "are you the one or should we look for another?" (That's doubt & a question right?)

There are answers, & Faith is a process-talk to God, & let God talk to you. Study and pray for knowledge. I see growth in you already.

 

[meep18]

Hello wsgqapu_ap ,
You seem earnest and totally not argumentative at all.
As far as divine nudgings go, I can totally relate. I don't think God talks directly to people these days.

Hebrews 11:1-2
God, who at different times and in diverse matters, spake, in times past, unto the fathers and prophets, has, in these last days spoken to us by his son.

From what I can tell your biggest objection is the change between morality in the OT and NT. Am I right?
Firstly, I'd appeal to God's omniscience.
After that, here's my guess. Tell me if you see any holes in it. I really want to know if the argument's faulty so I can stop telling people it if it is:
Let's say I leant [sic] you my book for 2 weeks and told you not to damage the pages or spill juice on it or rip the pages. Then you did all of those a ton. Wouldn't I be right in taking my book back?
Our lives are not ours. They belong to God. He gave us our lives and everything in them. So if we use them incorrectly, He's fully just in taking the life back He gave us in the first place.
So why isn't it OK today to stone children? Jesus.
I saw a good metaphor that explained it:
Let's say you owed a man $100. Then I paid that money. How much money do you now owe the man?
$0.
You owe him nothing.
Thusly, Christ paid for the sins of the disobedient children, homosexuals, bastard children, women who have premarital sex, etc. And thus, stoning people would make no sense at this day and age.
Anyways, feel free to PM me if you have any questions or just wanna talk.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

Hi meep18,
Thanks for your reply. Haven't been on here a while, and so when I did, was a bit surprised to see some recent responses.

As far as divine nudgings go, I can totally relate. I don't think God talks directly to people these days.

This relates to one major question I have, and that is why does God not speak directly to people these days? In the Old Testament, God seemed much more interventionist. God destroyed towns, handed down tablets, spoke to people directly - it makes me wonder why he only nudges people now.

From what I can tell your biggest objection is the change between morality in the OT and NT. Am I right?

Yes, that's definitely one of the big objections I have. It just seems that if there's an objective moral law that God has established, why is it changing so dramatically?

I've heard that answer before - that God has ownership over us and so can do with us what God wants since he made us and we've sinned. He can take away our lives and command seemingly brutal laws in the Old Testament.

There are a couple things about that that bother me though:

- First, it seems to relativize morality. Since God can make whatever laws he wants, then where is the objective, never changing moral law we're supposed to have written on our hearts, even if we haven't heard of Jesus? C.S. Lewis's argument from moral law was a big one for me, but it seems that our sense of morality would have to change significantly given on what God is then commanding.

- This one only works if you don't believe in original sin, which I personally don't. But what about infants that were ordered murdered by God in the Old Testament (Joshua 6)? Wouldn't they be innocent, and why would they deserve death?

- If I were to make a sentient being, and it were to do something against what I commanded, my sense of morality wouldn't compel me to command the other sentient beings around it to stone it to death. Of course, you could say my understanding of morality is so puny compared to God's, and that I can't understand that mind of an infinite God. However, if God's sense of morality is then beyond our understanding, how can we make our way to God through appeals to morality? (In a lot of the questions I ask, many have said we just can't understand the mind of God - but how can we rationally defend properties of God if when he seemingly violates these properties, we can then appeal to his being beyond our understanding? There are many different religions out there: if all their deities are beyond our understanding, then how can we tell which one is the right one (assuming there is one))?

Many arguments for God or for how God logically coheres already have God as a given, which seems like very circular reasoning. For instance, "All of God's actions are perfectly good - they may seem wrong to us sometimes, but because God exists and is always right, those actions that seem wrong to us must be right. (basically, God is right because God is always right)" or "The Bible is proof that God is real, and the Bible is real because God says it's real." Others just appeal to faith (but if we have to make a leap of faith, how do we know which is the right direction to leap in?), but that could end us up with a wide variety of religions and belief systems.

I think the past half year or so, I've been trying to find ways into that circle. I was firmly in that cycle of circular reasoning, but when I started looking for outside supports for that circle of reasoning, I couldn't find anything. I began looking at my beliefs from the perspective of someone who didn't have them, seeing if I had to talk to someone who didn't believe in God, if I could convince them. I couldn't find anything.

Sorry for this being so long. I'll be hanging around for a little while, and am very interested in hearing your responses.

Right, I honestly feel like I'm drifting strongly towards agnosticism, even though I still consider myself a Christian (albeit a very weak one at this point). I'm going through a bit of a personal tumult/emotional rollercoaster. While I'm mourning the potential loss of the certainty of God existing, I'm also giving up much of the cognitive dissonance I've been struggling with. At times, it makes me want to bang my head against the wall. There's no easy way out - either going fully back to Christianity, or letting go of my belief.

Thanks again for your response. I hope you're having a nice day

 

[meep18]

As for why God doesn't talk to us today, "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Hebrews 1:1-4)
There's an idea in The Bible that people who don't want to believe, won't no matter what. This seems to ring true in experience. In my numerous times witnessing to non-Christians and even correcting Christians when they sin, they never come up with a good explanation for how the world could've began without God or why Christianity is untrue. Often times, they even admit to not wanting to believe.[bless and do not curse]
(1) God's morality hasn't changed from what I can tell. In the OT, the Father's wrath hadn't been appeased. In the NT, it had.[bless and do not curse]
To illustrate:
I owe you $100. My friend Bob pays the $100.[bless and do not curse]
Nothing changed really. Just now my debt is paid.
In the OT, The Father's wrath hadn't been quenched. In the NT, Jesus died quenching the father's wrath. Justice existed the whole time and God perfectly ruled by this. The only difference is the manifestation.
(2) Why would you not have to believe in original sin?
John Piper put forth the idea that God might do this to save the babies from damnation. He mentions a verse which says God kills all the elect early to save them from falling away from the faith, and thus, damnation. This is one possible explanation.
(3) I don't think God's morality is beyond our understanding, but people have different perspectives.
I'll give you my take on it:
First, I notice that you said these arguments take God's existence as a given, so I'm going to start with an argument for God's existence:
A. There are only 3 ways the universe could exist without God: (1) The universe has always existed and thusly, will always exist. (2) The universe came from nothing. (3) Multiverse
B. The general scientific consensus is the universe will not always exist.
C. If the universe came from nothing, why doesn't that happen today?
D. The general scientific consensus is the multiverse doesn't exist. In addition, the multiverse is both lacking in evidence and unprovable. So belief in the multiverse is equivalent to belief in the flying spaghetti monster, unicorns, etc.
So if God created the universe, He would naturally have to be omnipotent. If He created everything, He knows it intimately. In the same way you would intimately know a book you wrote.
Thusly, God is omnipotent and omniscient.
This means God is constantly rejoicing. He has everything he could want, as you and I would if we were omnipotent omniscient beings.
So basically, God is joy and our enjoying Him is the ultimate good.
Sin separates us from this.
Thusly, sin is very very bad.
People tend to divide God's holiness and love and separate the two. They set the 2 against each other, by saying a loving God wouldn't damn people or God's holiness is mentioned more often in The Bible than His love. Both positions are incorrect. God's love and holiness are one and the same. I'd have to make up a new word to show how interconnected they are. In other words, God hates sin because He loves us.
We also believe love means to want the best for another, i.e. a sinless state.
So you have to hate sin to love people. If you don't hate sin, you don't love people. [bless and do not curse]
So by commanding those people to be stoned, God (a) showed how much he hated sin, and, (b) protected everyone else from the effects of that sin. (We believe we're one in Christ so sin is an issue that affects everyone. Also, in general, we become like the people we spend most time with. )
There's a proverb that explains the concept, "The parent who doesn't discipline his child hates his child."[bless and do not curse]
Also, as God is a separate person from us meaning we can know some things about him and his motives but not everything. In the same way, I can't know the entire motives of my mom, brother, or friends but I can know some of their wants and motives by watching and listening to them.
As for God's rightness, God is omniscient. By definition, He has to constantly be right.
As for The Bible's infallibility, I think every spiritual principle in The Bible is available by general revelation.
I don't believe fideism (the idea that faith and reason are opposed).
Don't be sorry. Make your posts as long as you need to. I enjoy reading them.
Your terminology is curious "going fully back to Christianity", or "letting go of my belief". You can't do either of those. You never were a Christian. To say you could have been born again then turned away is akin to saying you could be run over by a car and come away unscathed. This is shown by your misunderstanding of the heart of the gospel, i.e. substitutionary atonement.
Thank you. you too.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

Hi meep18,
Thanks for your response. I think I understand some points, but some others I'm still confused about, so I'm going to address those below.

As for why God doesn't talk to us today, "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Hebrews 1:1-4)

So I think you're trying to say that God doesn't talk to us now because God sent Jesus, and that Jesus, being the 'exact representation of' God's being, really said all that was needed to be said? Please correct me if I'm off a bit there. My question to that would be that God spoke to people after Jesus came to clarify things (to Paul, and also Peter about unclean foods), so it makes me wonder why God shouldn't still talk to people to clarify big questions within Christianity and set the record straight.

I admit, I'm still having trouble seeing morality in the Old Testament and the New Testament being consistent. But in your explanation, I'd have to admit the Old Testament laws were fully justified and correct. But when I see commandments, such as the one to kill everyone and everything in a town if just a couple people were not worshipping God there, I get a really bad feeling in my stomach. If that happened today, we'd call that barbaric, and it goes against my conscience, which according to my understanding of what Paul wrote, is supposed to something every person has and that comes from God. It seems too much like moral relativism to someone trying to approach this from the outside. There's no way to approach this without appealing to God. This is how I've began to lose the 'argument from morality' for my faith. Another verse that really bothers me is when Jesus talks about binding and loosing things on earth, and then it being bound or loosed in heaven - it seems to suggest that morality can shift.

(2) Why would you not have to believe in original sin?
John Piper put forth the idea that God might do this to save the babies from damnation. He mentions a verse which says God kills all the elect early to save them from falling away from the faith, and thus, damnation. This is one possible explanation.

Something really doesn't sit right with me with this explanation. If saving babies from damnation is a legitimate reason to kill them, then why isn't it legitimate now? Would abortion doctors be holy workers since they're saving souls? I guess someone could argue that the context of the situation made it okay, but that seems to sink into moral relativism. To take an objective approach, it would appear that killing babies is either all wrong or all right.

First, I notice that you said these arguments take God's existence as a given, so I'm going to start with an argument for God's existence:

Thanks for noticing that - that's exactly what I'm looking for is a way to God that doesn't take God's existence as a given. I began to notice my faith was self-reinforcing, and that I lacked arguments that didn't already give God's existence as a given.

A. There are only 3 ways the universe could exist without God: (1) The universe has always existed and thusly, will always exist. (2) The universe came from nothing. (3) Multiverse
B. The general scientific consensus is the universe will not always exist.
C. If the universe came from nothing, why doesn't that happen today?
D. The general scientific consensus is the multiverse doesn't exist. In addition, the multiverse is both lacking in evidence and unprovable. So belief in the multiverse is equivalent to belief in the flying spaghetti monster, unicorns, etc.
So if God created the universe, He would naturally have to be omnipotent. If He created everything, He knows it intimately. In the same way you would intimately know a book you wrote.
Thusly, God is omnipotent and omniscient.
This means God is constantly rejoicing. He has everything he could want, as you and I would if we were omnipotent omniscient beings.
So basically, God is joy and our enjoying Him is the ultimate good.
Sin separates us from this.
Thusly, sin is very very bad.

The first cause argument was one argument I really held dear, but there are a couple problems that I found with it that have caused me to give it up as a valid theory. If you notice any flaws in my issues with it, please let me know. First off, if everything must have a cause, and the Universe had to have a cause, then how does God as a non-caused being get exempt from our requirements as everything needing to have a first cause? It would seem to violate our first premise to allow God a way out of our premise. If God can be non-caused, then things can exist that can be non-caused, so why not also the universe?

But even if I were to accept that, then comes the issue of which God caused the world? The big killer of this argument for me was that it really only gets you as far as Deism, the belief in a non-personal God. I think it's a bit of a logical leap personalizing God there as rejoicing; a personal God is not needed for this argument. But even if I were to accept that a personal God was necessary for the argument, then there are many different deities from different religions that this argument could lead to.

At the current moment, I still kind of think God created the world, but am slipping away from that explanation to admitting I have no idea whatsoever.

So you have to hate sin to love people. If you don't hate sin, you don't love people. [bless and do not curse]
So by commanding those people to be stoned, God (a) showed how much he hated sin, and, (b) protected everyone else from the effects of that sin. (We believe we're one in Christ so sin is an issue that affects everyone. Also, in general, we become like the people we spend most time with. )
There's a proverb that explains the concept, "The parent who doesn't discipline his child hates his child."[bless and do not curse]

I understand the concept of hating wrong to love people, and I think a lot of non-Christians have a hard time getting that. Obviously, you wouldn't 'kindly' give your drug addict friend money when he asked if he was just going to spend it on drugs. Clearly, love seeks what's best for people and those practicing love realize it can't ignore evil in peoples in lives if they want to remain loving.

However, I have a hard time seeing how when God commands an entire village to be destroyed (Deuteronomy 13:13-19) when people in the village were worshipping another god, that that's protecting people from sin. It's just flat out killing them, even the children and infants. It's hard to see any love there. One could appeal to God's holiness, that he couldn't stand the presence of those worshipping other gods and that tolerating that could harm his people from sin. But why not just kill the people worshipping other gods? Why also the young child living on the other side of town whose never met these people?

Some of the commandments I'm struggling to understand don't have to do with punishing people who might actually deserve it in some way (though as I said, I'm having a hard time understanding how they could deserve it). There's a verse in Exodus (Exodus 21:20-21), that says, "Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

I really find that troubling. It allows owners to beat their slaves, given that they can get up in a few days, and affirms the practice of slavery by confirming slaves are property. I've heard people say that slavery wasn't as bad back then, though I have a hard time seeing how being beat so hard you can't get up for a day isn't so bad. I've heard people say that this verse is establishing rights for slaves that other cultures didn't have - but that doesn't solve the problem - it just makes it less horrible. If God is all-loving, and all-holy and cannot tolerate any wrong, then why does he allow slavery, something which virtually all people would condemn as wrong? I've heard people say God is meeting people where they're at, but that seems to compromise God's holiness and allow for moral relativism, since God compromises for cultural reasons.

Your terminology is curious "going fully back to Christianity", or "letting go of my belief". You can't do either of those. You never were a Christian. To say you could have been born again then turned away is akin to saying you could be run over by a car and come away unscathed. This is shown by your misunderstanding of the heart of the gospel, i.e. substitutionary atonement.

I think you'd be correct if you're looking at it from your perspective - I might be mistaken, but from your quoting John Piper and mentioning the elect, I gather that you're a Calvinist (though I'm not sure how once-saved always-saved works with the explanation for killing elect infants to save them so they won't turn away in later years, so maybe you're not one and I'm wrong there, or I'm misunderstanding perseverance of the saints.) I was/am an Arminian myself, so I don't hold to perseverance of the saints.

Thanks again for your response. Sorry for this being so long, and sorry if I came across as getting worked up at times. I think I've said on previous posts in this thread, this is something I think about a lot and experience a lot of distress over. I feel like the foundation of how I see the world is being torn out from beneath me and a system of thought that I integrated into almost every aspect of my being is being painfully torn away. I feel really lost.

 

[HISservant21]

Hi,
I've been losing my faith over these past several months. Last night, I wrote this because I feel the need to tell someone, and not hold it all in, and so I'm posting it on here this morning:


In my attempt to be honest to myself and my own experiences with God, I’ve come to doubt my faith more than I ever have before.

When people around me so certainly heard God tell them things or move in their lives, and those things seemed all too often aligned with their own views and opinions - I committed myself to only saying things that I was sure was from God. I didn’t want to confuse my own thoughts with those of God. While I’d never felt something before that felt undeniably like a divine message, I kept faith that I might hear something. But I never did.

When I read in the Bible where it said to have a reason for believing, I took that as finding a rational proof. I kept looking, and thought I found something, only to find the flaws in it. I’ve since kept looking, but whenever I find an answer, it only opens up more questions. In the process of looking for rational reasons to convince others, I’ve come to the point where I’ve failed to convince myself.

When I was told that during prayer we should not just say things to God, but spend time listening as well, I listened. I cleared my mind and listened for a message. But apart from the non-sensible mental static in my mind, I heard nothing that I could honestly say I thought was from God.

I’ve seen those who said they were led by God ignore the suffering of the least in society and drive some of them over the edge. Yes, I know we’re all fallen people, and Christians don’t have it right, but why do so many Christians get things so spectacularly wrong?

I have so many questions, and so many doubts. At first, I ignored them; my faith was enough, and I had faith there would be answers. But there’s only so many unanswered questions you can have about something before you begin to question the entire thing itself.

I know what many Christians will tell me, and what many of you may feel compelled to tell me: unbelief offers no hope. That a world without believing in a God who cares about the world and works to do good in it is not something they’d want to believe in. I feel the same way. I’m terrified of the idea that after you die nothing happens. But I’m at the uncomfortable point of adhering to a belief system that offers more questions than answers for me and that I’m hanging on to for fear of missing heaven or going to hell. I don’t feel like I’m being honest with myself and what actually seems to be the case in the world.

It’s not like I haven’t tried. I’ve been through a lot with my faith. Years of torment from religious OCD over false concepts of Christianity and then getting over that, just to deal with another faith-related crisis. It’s been exhausting. These past couples years though I’ve finally had the clarity and sanity of mind to really understand Christianity and be able to try out being a Christian. And I’ve tried so hard, and I keep asking myself, how did I end up where I’m at? I’d like nothing more than to be a devout believer, but I can’t force myself to fully devote myself to something I have serious doubts about.

I haven’t personally had any bad experiences with Christians. I’m not trying to ‘abandon Christianity’ to justify some sin or to switch to moral relativism. I’m a strong believer in objective morality. I don’t think I’m losing my faith for many of the reasons other people my age do. I haven’t slowly drifted away due to disinterest, or the lack of any churches with free coffee and candles everywhere - I’d go to any church if they could give satisfying answers to my questions. I feel like I’ve fought for every square inch of my faith, but have still managed to somehow lose.

I’m not sure exactly what I’m trying to accomplish with this post. Every other time I’ve had a faith crisis, I’ve written out a list of solid points or questions and looked for answers from other Christians, but haven't always gotten satisfying answers. I think this time, I’m just tired of looking and in a way, I’ve stopped looking for answers, but I’m also tired of holding this all in. I don’t expect to get any answers that will make me feel any less confused or conflicted. I think I just needed to tell someone how I’ve been feeling and thinking.

Thanks for reading this,
Adam

--------
friend,

stay in the word of GOD and in prayer.

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Matthew 26:41

"Pray without ceasing." - 1 Thessalonians 5:17

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." - Philippians 4:6-7

May The LORD bless you and be with you.

 

[losingmybattle]

Hi,
I've been losing my faith over these past several months. Last night, I wrote this because I feel the need to tell someone, and not hold it all in, and so I'm posting it on here this morning:


In my attempt to be honest to myself and my own experiences with God, I’ve come to doubt my faith more than I ever have before.

When people around me so certainly heard God tell them things or move in their lives, and those things seemed all too often aligned with their own views and opinions - I committed myself to only saying things that I was sure was from God. I didn’t want to confuse my own thoughts with those of God. While I’d never felt something before that felt undeniably like a divine message, I kept faith that I might hear something. But I never did.

When I read in the Bible where it said to have a reason for believing, I took that as finding a rational proof. I kept looking, and thought I found something, only to find the flaws in it. I’ve since kept looking, but whenever I find an answer, it only opens up more questions. In the process of looking for rational reasons to convince others, I’ve come to the point where I’ve failed to convince myself.

When I was told that during prayer we should not just say things to God, but spend time listening as well, I listened. I cleared my mind and listened for a message. But apart from the non-sensible mental static in my mind, I heard nothing that I could honestly say I thought was from God.

I’ve seen those who said they were led by God ignore the suffering of the least in society and drive some of them over the edge. Yes, I know we’re all fallen people, and Christians don’t have it right, but why do so many Christians get things so spectacularly wrong?

I have so many questions, and so many doubts. At first, I ignored them; my faith was enough, and I had faith there would be answers. But there’s only so many unanswered questions you can have about something before you begin to question the entire thing itself.

I know what many Christians will tell me, and what many of you may feel compelled to tell me: unbelief offers no hope. That a world without believing in a God who cares about the world and works to do good in it is not something they’d want to believe in. I feel the same way. I’m terrified of the idea that after you die nothing happens. But I’m at the uncomfortable point of adhering to a belief system that offers more questions than answers for me and that I’m hanging on to for fear of missing heaven or going to hell. I don’t feel like I’m being honest with myself and what actually seems to be the case in the world.

It’s not like I haven’t tried. I’ve been through a lot with my faith. Years of torment from religious OCD over false concepts of Christianity and then getting over that, just to deal with another faith-related crisis. It’s been exhausting. These past couples years though I’ve finally had the clarity and sanity of mind to really understand Christianity and be able to try out being a Christian. And I’ve tried so hard, and I keep asking myself, how did I end up where I’m at? I’d like nothing more than to be a devout believer, but I can’t force myself to fully devote myself to something I have serious doubts about.

I haven’t personally had any bad experiences with Christians. I’m not trying to ‘abandon Christianity’ to justify some sin or to switch to moral relativism. I’m a strong believer in objective morality. I don’t think I’m losing my faith for many of the reasons other people my age do. I haven’t slowly drifted away due to disinterest, or the lack of any churches with free coffee and candles everywhere - I’d go to any church if they could give satisfying answers to my questions. I feel like I’ve fought for every square inch of my faith, but have still managed to somehow lose.

I’m not sure exactly what I’m trying to accomplish with this post. Every other time I’ve had a faith crisis, I’ve written out a list of solid points or questions and looked for answers from other Christians, but haven't always gotten satisfying answers. I think this time, I’m just tired of looking and in a way, I’ve stopped looking for answers, but I’m also tired of holding this all in. I don’t expect to get any answers that will make me feel any less confused or conflicted. I think I just needed to tell someone how I’ve been feeling and thinking.

Thanks for reading this,
Adam

Hey Adam,

I am reading your post because I am in the same situation as you were when you posted this. I was born to a both-catholic parents. Went to a catholic school. Married in a catholic church. Kids went to catholic school as well.

But right now things are not really what I would say a very good way to be treated as a catholic being. I am starting to question more, than understand what is being said to me.

I lost my first wife to cancer, kids are in disarray, lost my job a year ago, not getting any help from anyone, my mentally disabled sister dont have insurance, mom lost her house, teenage son ran way. Yes we are living in the toughest of times economically speaking right now. I do understand that. But in my prayers, I never asked for the heavens or the whatnot. All I ask for is some kind of relief to this never ending suffering. Others will say this and that. That I am not alone. That there are far more worse things happening to other people. I mean, I know that and I do pray for those individuals as well. But is it really too much to ask for help for somebody who does not have any control or capacity to care for his loved ones.

I am now on the edge of losing my faith and I have no one to talk to but myself and all these religious statues we have here at home.

It's just sad to see my faith go down the drain. I would really love to stick around, but my situation calls differently. If you tell me to keep the faith stronger, then explain that to my hungry kids. Or to all that are suffering, for that matter.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,
I've been losing my faith over these past several months. Last night, I wrote this because I feel the need to tell someone, and not hold it all in, and so I'm posting it on here this morning:


In my attempt to be honest to myself and my own experiences with God, I’ve come to doubt my faith more than I ever have before.

When people around me so certainly heard God tell them things or move in their lives, and those things seemed all too often aligned with their own views and opinions - I committed myself to only saying things that I was sure was from God. I didn’t want to confuse my own thoughts with those of God. While I’d never felt something before that felt undeniably like a divine message, I kept faith that I might hear something. But I never did.

When I read in the Bible where it said to have a reason for believing, I took that as finding a rational proof. I kept looking, and thought I found something, only to find the flaws in it. I’ve since kept looking, but whenever I find an answer, it only opens up more questions. In the process of looking for rational reasons to convince others, I’ve come to the point where I’ve failed to convince myself.

When I was told that during prayer we should not just say things to God, but spend time listening as well, I listened. I cleared my mind and listened for a message. But apart from the non-sensible mental static in my mind, I heard nothing that I could honestly say I thought was from God.

I’ve seen those who said they were led by God ignore the suffering of the least in society and drive some of them over the edge. Yes, I know we’re all fallen people, and Christians don’t have it right, but why do so many Christians get things so spectacularly wrong?

I have so many questions, and so many doubts. At first, I ignored them; my faith was enough, and I had faith there would be answers. But there’s only so many unanswered questions you can have about something before you begin to question the entire thing itself.

I know what many Christians will tell me, and what many of you may feel compelled to tell me: unbelief offers no hope. That a world without believing in a God who cares about the world and works to do good in it is not something they’d want to believe in. I feel the same way. I’m terrified of the idea that after you die nothing happens. But I’m at the uncomfortable point of adhering to a belief system that offers more questions than answers for me and that I’m hanging on to for fear of missing heaven or going to hell. I don’t feel like I’m being honest with myself and what actually seems to be the case in the world.

It’s not like I haven’t tried. I’ve been through a lot with my faith. Years of torment from religious OCD over false concepts of Christianity and then getting over that, just to deal with another faith-related crisis. It’s been exhausting. These past couples years though I’ve finally had the clarity and sanity of mind to really understand Christianity and be able to try out being a Christian. And I’ve tried so hard, and I keep asking myself, how did I end up where I’m at? I’d like nothing more than to be a devout believer, but I can’t force myself to fully devote myself to something I have serious doubts about.

I haven’t personally had any bad experiences with Christians. I’m not trying to ‘abandon Christianity’ to justify some sin or to switch to moral relativism. I’m a strong believer in objective morality. I don’t think I’m losing my faith for many of the reasons other people my age do. I haven’t slowly drifted away due to disinterest, or the lack of any churches with free coffee and candles everywhere - I’d go to any church if they could give satisfying answers to my questions. I feel like I’ve fought for every square inch of my faith, but have still managed to somehow lose.

I’m not sure exactly what I’m trying to accomplish with this post. Every other time I’ve had a faith crisis, I’ve written out a list of solid points or questions and looked for answers from other Christians, but haven't always gotten satisfying answers. I think this time, I’m just tired of looking and in a way, I’ve stopped looking for answers, but I’m also tired of holding this all in. I don’t expect to get any answers that will make me feel any less confused or conflicted. I think I just needed to tell someone how I’ve been feeling and thinking.

Thanks for reading this,
Adam

Hi Adam,

Don't base your faith upon your ability to hear from God. I now hear from God regularly, but it took 15 years of trying to get to know God, and do his will before I ever heard his voice. If you want to read about what God has done for me you can read it at http://www.futureandahope.net

Robert

 

[aiki]

Rather, what is causing me to doubt are more fundamental issues about the Christian faith. For example, I found the big difference in morality in the Old Testament and the New Testament to be troubling. If there's one thing about Christianity I really felt drawn to, it was the objective moral standard (I am not a fan of moral relativism by any means), but when you look at the Old Testament and the New Testament, the differences seem rather striking. In one, killing women and children in war is condoned and parents are commanded to stone their disobedient children, while in the other, love of enemies is preached and mercy is placed before punishment. I've heard many Christians give explanations about this: God had a special covenant with the Israelites, Jesus fulfilled the law but didn't change it, God related to people in their cultural context, but none of them are satisfying to me. In the end, God commanded children be stoned to death; in the other, a radically different approach is taken. I can't get over that difference.

The God of the NT is also the God of the OT. He hasn't changed. His mercy, and love, and holiness are in the NT what they were in the OT. When I consider the things you've mentioned, the first thought that comes to mind is that God, the Creator and Sustainer of Everything in the Universe, has the unique right as the Giver of Life, to be also the Taker of it. Really, if God has sovereign control over all things as the Bible says, he is ultimately responsible for the death of every person. God kills us all - men, women and children. But this is His unique prerogative as the Giver of Life. He is the only One who does no wrong in taking any life He chooses to take; for that life only exists because He willed it to do so.

It's really important also to be clear on the circumstances under which God commands Israel to wage genocidal war. Remember, God has a unique right to command the taking of any life. But there are also justifying circumstances for the commands of this sort that God issues. In no instance does God command Israel to destroy her friends. It is always those nations which have set themselves against Israel, that have attacked and killed her people - often over prolonged periods of time - that God commands Israel to destroy. Is there a particular instance from the OT that stands out as an example of what you're talking about above?

We think God goes too far in commanding Israel to kill the children of her enemies. It has been observed, though, that the accounts of war that are in the OT have the exaggerated quality typical of such accounts of the time. Paul Copan explains,

"Like his ancient Near Eastern comtemporaries, Joshua used the language of conventional warfare rhetoric. This language sounds like bragging and exaggeration to our ears. Notice first the sweeping language in Joshua 10:40: 'Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded.' Joshua used the rhetorical bravado language of his day, asserting that all the land was captured, all the kings defeated, and all the Canaanites destroyed...Yet, as we will see, Joshua himself acknowledged that this wasn't literally so....Joshua was just saying he had fairly well trounced the enemy. On the one hand, Joshua says, "There were no Anakim left in the land, (Josh. 11:22); indeed, they were "utterly destroyed (haram)' in the hill country (11:21). Literally? Not accroding to the very same Joshua! In fact, Caleb later asked permission to drive out the Anakites from the hill country (14:12-15; 15:13-19)...Again, though the land "had rest from war" (Josh. 11:23), chapters 13 and beyond tell us that much territory remained unpossessed (13:1). Tribe upon tribe failed to drive out the Canaanites (13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:12, 13, 18), and Joshua tells seven of the tribes, "How long will you put off entering to take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you?" (Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God. Paul Copan. pg. 170-171)

You mention also the stoning of disobedient children. Are you aware of the circumstances that were required before such a judgment would be levied upon a person? Atheists like to play up this law as though the Israelites were killing their children at the slightest hint of rebellious disobedience. But this is not what happened. In fact, there isn't a single record in the OT of a child being stoned to death for disobedience. Paul Copan comments:

"We're not talking about a little practical joker or even about a teenager who won't clean up his room. No, he's an utter delinquent whose hardened, insubordinate behaviour simply can't be correctd, despite everyone's best efforts. He's a repeat offender: 'when they [his father and mother] chastise him, he will not even listen to them (Deut. 21:18). He's a picture of insubordination - 'a glutton and drunkard" (vs. 20; Prov. 23:20-21) This serious problem would have had a profoundly destructive effect on the family and the wider community...Notice though, that the parents don't take matters into their own hands. They confer with the civil authorities, who are responsible for keeping an orderly, functioning society. The parents aren't in the picture any longer; they're not taking charge of the punishment. Rather, the community carries out this exercise of social responsibility. And when it takes this drastic action, it's a tragic last resort to deal with this trouble." (Is God a Moral Monster: Making Sense of the Old Testament God. Paul Copan, pgs. 90-91)

I hope that didn't come off as combative by any means - this is just the kind of stream of consciousness thinking I've been doing about this stuff and I've been wondering about for a long while. I'm very eager to hear any explanations that could help explain my questions and help me strengthen my faith.

No, it didn't come off as combative at all. I'm glad to help answer the sorts of questions you have.

Selah.

 

[dhh712]

Hi,
I've been losing my faith over these past several months. Last night, I wrote this because I feel the need to tell someone, and not hold it all in, and so I'm posting it on here this morning:


In my attempt to be honest to myself and my own experiences with God, I’ve come to doubt my faith more than I ever have before.

When people around me so certainly heard God tell them things or move in their lives, and those things seemed all too often aligned with their own views and opinions - I committed myself to only saying things that I was sure was from God. I didn’t want to confuse my own thoughts with those of God. While I’d never felt something before that felt undeniably like a divine message, I kept faith that I might hear something. But I never did.

When I read in the Bible where it said to have a reason for believing, I took that as finding a rational proof. I kept looking, and thought I found something, only to find the flaws in it. I’ve since kept looking, but whenever I find an answer, it only opens up more questions. In the process of looking for rational reasons to convince others, I’ve come to the point where I’ve failed to convince myself.

When I was told that during prayer we should not just say things to God, but spend time listening as well, I listened. I cleared my mind and listened for a message. But apart from the non-sensible mental static in my mind, I heard nothing that I could honestly say I thought was from God.

I’ve seen those who said they were led by God ignore the suffering of the least in society and drive some of them over the edge. Yes, I know we’re all fallen people, and Christians don’t have it right, but why do so many Christians get things so spectacularly wrong?

I have so many questions, and so many doubts. At first, I ignored them; my faith was enough, and I had faith there would be answers. But there’s only so many unanswered questions you can have about something before you begin to question the entire thing itself.

I know what many Christians will tell me, and what many of you may feel compelled to tell me: unbelief offers no hope. That a world without believing in a God who cares about the world and works to do good in it is not something they’d want to believe in. I feel the same way. I’m terrified of the idea that after you die nothing happens. But I’m at the uncomfortable point of adhering to a belief system that offers more questions than answers for me and that I’m hanging on to for fear of missing heaven or going to hell. I don’t feel like I’m being honest with myself and what actually seems to be the case in the world.

It’s not like I haven’t tried. I’ve been through a lot with my faith. Years of torment from religious OCD over false concepts of Christianity and then getting over that, just to deal with another faith-related crisis. It’s been exhausting. These past couples years though I’ve finally had the clarity and sanity of mind to really understand Christianity and be able to try out being a Christian. And I’ve tried so hard, and I keep asking myself, how did I end up where I’m at? I’d like nothing more than to be a devout believer, but I can’t force myself to fully devote myself to something I have serious doubts about.

I haven’t personally had any bad experiences with Christians. I’m not trying to ‘abandon Christianity’ to justify some sin or to switch to moral relativism. I’m a strong believer in objective morality. I don’t think I’m losing my faith for many of the reasons other people my age do. I haven’t slowly drifted away due to disinterest, or the lack of any churches with free coffee and candles everywhere - I’d go to any church if they could give satisfying answers to my questions. I feel like I’ve fought for every square inch of my faith, but have still managed to somehow lose.

I’m not sure exactly what I’m trying to accomplish with this post. Every other time I’ve had a faith crisis, I’ve written out a list of solid points or questions and looked for answers from other Christians, but haven't always gotten satisfying answers. I think this time, I’m just tired of looking and in a way, I’ve stopped looking for answers, but I’m also tired of holding this all in. I don’t expect to get any answers that will make me feel any less confused or conflicted. I think I just needed to tell someone how I’ve been feeling and thinking.

Thanks for reading this,
Adam

I hope Adam is in a better place spiritually than when he wrote this nearly three years ago.

It seems to me, as I continue to read such letters, that many seem to find their faith wavering because of an inadequacy in the answers which the Christian faith proposes to provide. I wonder then which Christianity they have fallen upon, which one God has put an understanding of in their mind. For I don't know that Christianity proposes to provide answers which are satisfying to those whose perspectives are fixed on the world. The answers are often harsh ones to such, and if one who has been given the gift of faith does not find them satisfying, I wonder what kind of faith has been given to them: is it one which demands a satisfying answer to their mind? Or one that trusts in God and sets their mind on heaven and not this world?

Then I wonder if I can say these things because I have known such little suffering in my own life; in fact, I am quite sure of it and it makes me doubt the faith which I have been given. I think that perhaps I am able to believe because I have known so little suffering and when I do experience it, I will also say, "I need this world explained and do not accept the answers which are really incomprehensible any more."

I often feel like such a hypocrite and wonder why God has called me at this point in my life and then wonder if He really has or if I am just deluding myself. I wish I could change the way I am and be grateful for what He has given me and stop being sad because I have nothing to be sad about. I think He will punish me for not being grateful enough, and I deserve it. I wish I could not have such a deceitful, corrupt heart.