Lord, Lord, Didn't We. . .

jimmyjimmy

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Ain't that the truth. As Luther said;

"The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”


This sin has been repeated throughout the pages of scripture with Abraham being a major example. Not trusting God to do as promised, he attempted to bring it about himself. This is the default mode of the human heart.

Jason thinks that faith is easy but works are difficult - it's quite the other way round, however.
 
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Self-salvation is the greatest sin of all.

Well, there is a difference between having a relationship with Christ whereby the fruits of Christ will be evident in their life versus someone trying to save themselves by a set of rules alone (Which are usually man made).

But if you were to follow God's Laws in the New Testament, they would lead you into a right relationship with Christ. God is not Lawless.

In fact, do you realize that you are justified by a Law in the Bible?

It is 1 John 3:23.

But please know that is not the only Commandment God has given us, though.
This also means that you are not under no Law whatsoever, too.
So when Paul says we are not under the Law, He is talking about the Law of Moses and not the Commands given to us in the New Testament (Unless of course you want to deny what 1 John 3:23 plainly says or something).

....
 
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Ain't that the truth. As Luther said;

"The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”


What happened as a result of that sin?
Separation from God was the result.
Scripture says God is not a respecter of persons.
So God would not treat sin differently for Adam as he woud for us.


....
 
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This sin has been repeated throughout the pages of scripture with Abraham being a major example. Not trusting God to do as promised, he attempted to bring it about himself. This is the default mode of the human heart.

Jason thinks that faith is easy but works are difficult - it's quite the other way round, however.
Faith and works are not separate. They are two sides of the same coin. Works are the by product of a genuine faith.
No works means one does not have a living faith but a dead faith.

Titus 1:16
James 2:17,
Matthew 7:26-27.


....
 
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This sin has been repeated throughout the pages of scripture with Abraham being a major example. Not trusting God to do as promised, he attempted to bring it about himself. This is the default mode of the human heart.

Jason thinks that faith is easy but works are difficult - it's quite the other way round, however.
Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Jesus said one of the reasons these false believers were to depart from him was because of iniquity or sin. This means these false believes are disobeying God's Commands in some way. When I tell the Eternal Security Proponent about Matthew 5:27-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:26-27, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8 they really do not acknowledge these verses in what they plainly say. Why should they? For they believe all their sin is paid for at the cross (past, present, and future).

In other words, who is more likely to be cavalier about their sins whereby they will commit them?

(a) The person who believes in Eternal Security who thinks they can sin and still be saved? or

(b) The Conditional Security Proponent who believes that even one really wrong unconfessed sin will separate them from God?​

Think about it.

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jimmyjimmy

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Faith and works are not separate. They are two sides of the same coin. Works are the by product of a genuine faith.
No works means one does not have a living faith but a dead faith.

Titus 1:16
James 2:17,
Matthew 7:26-27.


....

You are misreading James because you ignore context and the reason for his writing in the first place.

The Pharisees had more works to their account than anyone. . .
 
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jimmyjimmy

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do you realize that you are justified by a Law in the Bible?

I am justified by Christ's life of perfect obedience and His death on my my behalf.

Obedience to NT (or OT) commands does not justify us any more than a son who does well in school because his father told him to, has earned his sonship.

The bulk of the NT is spent demonstrating how and why we cannot be justified by the law, how in the world do you miss that???!!!
 
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You are misreading James because you ignore context and the reason for his writing in the first place.

The Pharisees had more works to their account than anyone. . .

Why don't you prove your case by showing me the context then.

Besides, can a dead faith access the saving grace of God?


....
 
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I am justified by Christ's life of perfect obedience and His death on my my behalf.

Obedience to NT (or OT) commands does not justify us any more than a son who does well in school because his father told him to, has earned his sonship.

The bulk of the NT is spent demonstrating how and why we cannot be justified by the law, how in the world do you miss that???!!!

First of all, you did not address the actual verses I am talking about here in Matthew 7. Jesus said these false believers worked iniquity in Matthew 7:23. Iniquity is sin. How do you write off this saying by Jesus? Do you just ignore it or do you actually have some kind of odd interpretation that goes beyond the plain written meaning? Second, when Paul talks about not being justifed by the Law, He is talking about the Law of Moses. Unless of course you want to argue that you are not justifed by not keeping the Commandment to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).


...
 
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jimmyjimmy

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First of all, you did not address the actual verses I am talking about here in Matthew 7. Jesus said these false believers worked iniquity in Matthew 7:23. Iniquity is sin. How do you write off this saying by Jesus? Do you just ignore it or do you actually have some kind of odd interpretation that goes beyond the plain written meaning? Second, when Paul talks about not being justifed by the Law, He is talking about the Law of Moses. Unless of course you want to argue that you are not justifed by not keeping the Commandment to believe on Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).


...

Their iniquity (Matt 7) is the very same as to yours, Jason. They brought their works before a holy God thinking that they would be justified by them.

I answered John 3:23 in my last post.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Why don't you prove your case by showing me the context then.

Besides, can a dead faith access the saving grace of God?


....

What is dead faith?

We do not have to strain to "access" saving grace. It is freely given.
 
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Steeno7

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Their iniquity (Matt 7) is the very same as to yours, Jason. They brought their works before a holy God thinking that they would be justified by them.

Exactly. The irony of it would be laughable if not so tragic for himself and destructive to others.
 
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Their iniquity (Matt 7) is the very same as to yours, Jason. They brought their works before a holy God thinking that they would be justified by them.

I answered John 3:23 in my last post.
No. Their works were not considered good because they were also sinning. An evil person can do good things but that does not make them a good guy. Jesus says it is because of iniquity as to why they were false. That means they were sinning in addition to the cloak of good works that they did. It would sort of be like Hitler claiming he was good to his Mom and others as an excuse that his sin of mass murder did not exist. In that scenario: Jesus could very well say to him, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As for the verse you quoted back: Well, it is not John 3:23. It is 1 John 3:23. It is a Commandment that tells you to believe on Jesus. Are you justified by believing on Jesus? I would venture to say that would be a... "yes." So this particular Commandment in Scripture is one that you are justified by keeping. But you said you are not justified by obeying any commands. If that is the case, then you do not need to obey the Commandment that essentially says we are to believe in Jesus that is mentioned 1 John 3:23 then; Or do you just pick and choose which Commands you are justified in keeping?


...
 
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What is dead faith?

We do not have to strain to "access" saving grace. It is freely given.
What? Do you believe you do not have to have faith and you can still be saved? Ephesians 2:8 says you are saved by grace THRU faith. Also, the Bible says without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

....
 
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Steeno7

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No. Their works were not considered good because they were also sinning. An evil person can do good things but that does not make them a good guy. Jesus says it is because of iniquity as to why they were false. That means they were sinning in addition to the cloak of good works that they did. It would sort of be like Hitler claiming he was good to his Mom and others as an excuse that his sin of mass murder did not exist. In that scenario: Jesus could very well say to him, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As for the verse you quoted back: Well, it is not John 3:23. It is 1 John 3:23. It is a Commandment that tells you to believe on Jesus. Are you justified by believing on Jesus? I would venture to say that would be a... "yes." So this particular Commandment in Scripture is one that you are justified by keeping. But you said you are not justified by obeying any commands. If that is the case, then you do not need to obey the Commandment that essentially says we are to believe in Jesus that is mentioned 1 John 3:23 then; Or do you just pick and choose which Commands you are justified in keeping?

Then your works will never be considered good because you are still sinning.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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What? Do you believe you do not have to have faith and you can still be saved? Ephesians 2:8 says you are saved by grace THRU faith. Also, the Bible says without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

....

I didn't say that. I don't know what dead faith is.
 
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sdowney717

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This sin has been repeated throughout the pages of scripture with Abraham being a major example. Not trusting God to do as promised, he attempted to bring it about himself. This is the default mode of the human heart.

Jason thinks that faith is easy but works are difficult - it's quite the other way round, however.

Even though Abraham did that, notice God did not rebuke him.
God had chosen Abram. God says HE is Abram's reward, great place to be, being a OSAS saved Christian believer chosen by God.

Genesis 15
1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

2 But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”


Then in Gen 16 we read Sarai, gave to Abram Hagar as wife. So it starts then with Sarai. Abram of course does not reject for some reason.


Genesis 16 New King James Version (NKJV)
Hagar and Ishmael
16 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar. 2 So Sarai said to Abram, “See now, the Lord has restrained me from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her.” And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai. 3 Then Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. 4 So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress became despised in her eyes.

Still there is no correction, rebuke or condemnation from the Lord to Abram. God's plans for them have not changed regarding what they did.

Genesis 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Sign of the Covenant
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Facts are there is never nor will there ever be condemnation from God to those who are His children, sons and daughters. There will be chastisement and trials. None of that disinherits us from being saved but is designed by Good for our good.

For this is our situation, those part of His flock, those who are His sheep.

32 “Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

So those who preach otherwise, shame on them, they are speaking falsely about God's intentions and what will actually happen to those who belong to Him. They will never be lost, they will never go to hell. Anyone who preaches otherwise does not know God, they have taken the side of the accuser, the adversary known as Satan.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Even though Abraham did that, notice God did not rebuke him.
God had chosen Abram. God says HE is Abram's reward, great place to be, being a OSAS saved Christian believer chosen by God.

Genesis 15
1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

2 But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”


Then in Gen 16 we read Sarai, gave to Abram Hagar as wife. So it starts then with Sarai. Abram of course does not reject for some reason.


Genesis 16 New King James Version (NKJV)
Hagar and Ishmael
16 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar. 2 So Sarai said to Abram, “See now, the Lord has restrained me from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her.” And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai. 3 Then Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. 4 So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress became despised in her eyes.

Still there is no correction, rebuke or condemnation from the Lord to Abram. God's plans for them have not changed regarding what they did.

Genesis 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Sign of the Covenant
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Facts are there is never nor will there ever be condemnation from God to those who are His children, sons and daughters. There will be chastisement and trials. None of that disinherits us from being saved but is designed by Good for our good.

For this is our situation, those part of His flock, those who are His sheep.

32 “Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

So those who preach otherwise, shame on them, they are speaking falsely about God's intentions and what will actually happen to those who belong to Him. They will never be lost, they will never go to hell. Anyone who preaches otherwise does not know God, they have taken the side of the accuser, the adversary known as Satan.

EXCELLENT point! In spite of Abram's lack of faith in God's promise (sin), God did not abandon him and go to plan B.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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So those who preach otherwise, shame on them, they are speaking falsely about God's intentions and what will actually happen to those who belong to Him. They will never be lost, they will never go to hell. Anyone who preaches otherwise does not know God.

Strong words, but entirely true.

The glory of the gospel is that God makes a wretch like me, a scoffer like me, a failure like me. . . a son. A son that He will never disown. A son that He will give an inheritance to. A son that He will love forever.

He came for sinners. . .
 
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