Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

While I suspect you and I are on the same side of this issue, I think the point is that to the extent man has free will, this necessarily reduces the sovereignty of God. Thus, I think your opponent in debate would say, God cannot remain fully sovereign if man has any degree of free will whatsoever.

Having said that, I believe that man indeed does have free will.

Why can't a fully sovereign God grant freedom to His creatures? How does sovereignty prevent Him from doing that?

I believe it is a fallacious idea to claim that man's freedom limits or reduces God's sovereignty. There is no basis for such a claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, you are probably not going to like this, but I do indeed believe that God is neither fully omnipotent nor fully omniscient. So I can then claim that man can have free will without creating a contradiction. No doubt, you believe that the omniscience and omnipotence of God is Biblical; I disagree and politely suggest it is an idea that leaks in from the "caricature" of the Christian God that floats around in the air of our culture and which many take onboard as if by osmosis.

We agree on one thing, at least: If man has any freewill, this takes away from the "sovereignty" of God.

Nonsense. It is not a zero sum game.

 

[expos4ever]

Then, with all respect, I do not consider you within the realm of the orthodoxy. Thus, any conversation we have will be fruitless because we are not on the same page with the most fundamental, basic aspects of God.

Are you open to a discussion about the Biblical case against "full" omniscience?

 

[expos4ever]

Hi expos4ever, have you ever seen the movie, Mouse Hunt? If you want to see what could happen to the universe if even a single "maverick molecule" existed in it outside of God's purview, watch that movie

I appreciate the suggestion, but I prefer to get my theology from a careful, open-minded examinations of the Scriptures.

 

[expos4ever]

Nonsense. It is not a zero sum game.

Please actually defend your position. How, and please be precise and make an actual argument, is anything I have posted "nonsense" from a specifically Biblical perspective?

 

[St_Worm2]

I appreciate the suggestion, but I prefer to get my theology from a careful, open-minded examinations of the Scriptures.

Why?

 

[St_Worm2]

Are you open to a discussion about the Biblical case against "full" omniscience?

I thought Rice's and Pinnock's "Open Theism" had been given a fair hearing by many/most denominations and seminaries over 10 years ago and was declared to be a heresy by all of them IOW, according to the churches and seminaries (like TEDS), there is no Biblical case for anything short of "full" omniscience ..

 

[Jesus First]

God doesn't play dice. That would make the dice God, you see.

Dear Calvinist, brother,

We have different views of God. I believe free will choices don't limit His sovereignty. How is this possible? By believing that God’s greatness is greater than our human minds can fully understand.

One’s view of God is not inconsequential. Did God create Adam and Eve to sin, or did God make them with the capacity to resist (free will)?

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

Ummm, what? If you could please explain how a man can have free will in light of an omnipotent, omniscient God, without negating either one of those attributes (which we all agree God has, I hope, or else I just need to leave) in the slightest fashion, that would be an awesome feat of philosophy.

Dear Calvinist Brother,

Are you not limiting God’s greatness down to a human level of understandability for validation? God’s sovereignty is greater than the limits imposed by a model using human philosophy.

In Christ!

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Did God create Adam and Eve to sin, or did God make them with the capacity to resist (free will)?

In Christ!

Adam and eve were created 'good'. They didn't have a sinful nature like we all do.

 

[Jesus First]

God works all things according to the council of HIS own will, of that we have a sure word.
Meaning God does not ask for or solicit advice from anyone, God makes His own freewill decision.
Where is it taught man has a free will?
On the contrary , Christ taught man's will is not free, he is a slave to sin.

The Truth Shall Make You Free
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

And Christ says He frees us from sin, not that He gives us a free will.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Dear Calvinist Brother,

I respectfully object to your statement that “Christ taught man's will is not free” (your partial quote) from John 8:31-36 & Romans 6:22-23. Your claim is not substantiated by the context. You are absolutely correct, however, that all men are slaves to sin. But you are confusing apples with oranges. The point of Christ’s teaching was not that man doesn't posses a free will but that man is a slave to sin and can be made free from sin. Once saved, sin’s right to rule in one’s life has been broken.

Mankind’s slavery to sin doesn’t nullify free will choices. It means that choices are limited by man’s fallen state.

Before the fall in the Garden, man’s ability to chose wasn't limited by sin. The choices available to Adam in his pre-fallen state were within the limits imposed by God during creation. Man's ability to make limited choices before and after the fall didn't/don't threaten God sovereignty unless one’s view of God greatness is reduced to a human level of comprehension where God must preordain every detail to remain sovereign.

You surely don't understand fully the doctrine of the Trinity. Yet, (I assume), your belief in the Trinity is not limited to your minds ability to fully grasp the magnitude of a Triune God. Since you surely apply faith to understand aspects of the Trinity that are outside our mind’s capacity, should not this practice be applied to God?

In Christ!

 

[Isaiah55:6]

2 Thesa2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Can you tell me what this verse means please? If it doesn't mean ' God chose you from the beginning for salvation'.

 

[Jesus First]

The God who preordains every detail in advance doesn't do so to remain sovereign, He does so because HE IS sovereign.

Your view of free will is apparently a great deal more than what it actually is.

Why is it that most Believers are perfectly fine with God having pre-eminence in all things, EXCEPT for Salvation? Why does man feel that he must stick his nose into it and try to claim a piece of it as his own doing?

Dear Calvinist Brother,

In my opinion, your view of God is limited by the mental framework you attach to His greatness. Since He must preordain everything in advance to remain sovereign, any challenge to your view of God and man’s ability to make choices becomes a limitation on God’s sovereignty (if true) or a misunderstanding of free will.

We can agree to disagree

Why is it that most Believers are perfectly fine with God having pre-eminence in all things, EXCEPT for Salvation? Why does man feel that he must stick his nose into it and try to claim a piece of it as his own doing?

You have created a straw man (I say this respecfully) and knocked it down.


In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

2 Thesa2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Can you tell me what this verse means please? If it doesn't mean ' God chose you from the beginning for salvation'.

Dear brother,

This means what it says. "God has chosen" us "from the beginning". Are you in agreement with Romans 8:29 where foreknowledge comes before predestination?

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

Adam and eve were created 'good'. They didn't have a sinful nature like we all do.

Yes, we agree fully on this point.

 

[St_Worm2]

Dear brother,

This means what it says. "God has chosen" us "from the beginning". Are you in agreement with Romans 8:29 where foreknowledge comes before predestination?

In Christ!

Hi JF, if προγινώσκω [proginosko], "foreknew" could be clearly shown to support the "prescient" view of Arminianism (IOW, God making His choice of us based upon our choice of Him), this would go a LONG way to support your view. How does the Bible put it, "God loved us because we first loved Him", right? Wait, that's not it, is it

Unfortunately, the scholars are divided, and sometimes not even along (or completely along) "party" lines. Vincent's Word Study, for instance, says it is definitely Arminian "prescience" that is in view, while Robertson, on the other hand, clearly shows why it is not

Perhaps we should take some time to study 'both' sides and honestly report what we find concerning προγινώσκω in Romans 8:29? Chances are we will end up, as you put it above, simply agreeing to disagree, but the effort may still be worthwhile

Yours and His,
David

 

[Job8]

2 Thesa2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Can you tell me what this verse means please? If it doesn't mean ' God chose you from the beginning for salvation'.

That verse means exactly what it says PROVIDED YOU READ IT THROUGH TO THE END without any preconceived ideas. Salvation means the ultimate perfection of the saints -- body, soul, and spirit. And it is through sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit that the believer is changed into the likeness of Christ. God has predestinated each one who believes to be perfected in Christ -- CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON (Rom 8:29). So that is exactly what God has chosen us to be from the beginning -- elect according to the foreknowledge of God "through sanctification of the Spirit" (1 Pet 1:2). As you can see both verses correspond. "Chosen", "predestinated", and "elected" are all the same. And the purpose is always the perfection of the saints (1 Jn 3:1-3).

 

[sdowney717]

Dear Calvinist Brother,

I respectfully object to your statement that “Christ taught man's will is not free” (your partial quote) from John 8:31-36 & Romans 6:22-23. Your claim is not substantiated by the context. You are absolutely correct, however, that all men are slaves to sin. But you are confusing apples with oranges. The point of Christ’s teaching was not that man doesn't posses a free will but that man is a slave to sin and can be made free from sin. Once saved, sin’s right to rule in one’s life has been broken.

Mankind’s slavery to sin doesn’t nullify free will choices. It means that choices are limited by man’s fallen state.

Before the fall in the Garden, man’s ability to chose wasn't limited by sin. The choices available to Adam in his pre-fallen state were within the limits imposed by God during creation. Man's ability to make limited choices before and after the fall didn't/don't threaten God sovereignty unless one’s view of God greatness is reduced to a human level of comprehension where God must preordain every detail to remain sovereign.

You surely don't understand fully the doctrine of the Trinity. Yet, (I assume), your belief in the Trinity is not limited to your minds ability to fully grasp the magnitude of a Triune God. Since you surely apply faith to understand aspects of the Trinity that are outside our mind’s capacity, should not this practice be applied to God?

In Christ!

Man can not make himself free, he is a slave of sin. Only Christ can set you free.
Man has a free will within a boundary of his own natural condition, and that means to chose to continue to sin, heaping sins upon sins, which men do, but he can not chose to do good of his own free will. Good would be to chose Christ and seek after God.
Man can not choose to seek God, unless God regenerates man, man wont be seeking God and can not know spiritual things that are of the truth, but can know spiritual things of darkness being evil. Natural man is evil.

God here would be Jesus Christ and no one seeks after Christ, all seek their own.
20 For I have no one like-minded, who will sincerely care for your state. 21 For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus.

Good here is only what God considers good, not what fallen man considers good.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said this:
"Well, you are probably not going to like this, but I do indeed believe that God is neither fully omnipotent nor fully omniscient. So I can then claim that man can have free will without creating a contradiction. No doubt, you believe that the omniscience and omnipotence of God is Biblical; I disagree and politely suggest it is an idea that leaks in from the "caricature" of the Christian God that floats around in the air of our culture and which many take onboard as if by osmosis.

We agree on one thing, at least: If man has any freewill, this takes away from the "sovereignty" of God."

I responded with:
nonsense. It's not a zero sum game.

And your reply:

Please actually defend your position.

Actually, it's you who said this first:
"While I suspect you and I are on the same side of this issue, I think the point is that to the extent man has free will, this necessarily reduces the sovereignty of God. Thus, I think your opponent in debate would say, God cannot remain fully sovereign if man has any degree of free will whatsoever."

The burden of proof is on you to defend your claim about God's sovereignty. I have challenged that view. So, ball's in your court.

How, and please be precise and make an actual argument, is anything I have posted "nonsense" from a specifically Biblical perspective?

Go ahead and serve the ball. Then we'll see if you can handle the return.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Thesa2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Can you tell me what this verse means please? If it doesn't mean ' God chose you from the beginning for salvation'.

The question really is this: On what basis did He choose you for salvation? And the answer is found in that verse: through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Salvation is ALWAYS based on believing what God says about His Son and His promise of eternal life for believers.