Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

This Scripture has NO BEARING on the subject. This is written to Christians and is a teaching for Christians (the justified ones) since THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. We are talking about the natural man, not the weak Christian.


Another Scripture which has NO BEARING on the subject. The issue is not whether the right actions according to conscience please God or displease God. That is an entirely separate matter related walking in the Spirit, and that is the context. The issue is whether the natural man can do right, and that doing right is never sinful.

Christians are not to pull verses out of context to prove a point. Neither of those verses are relevant to whether the natural man can be held accountable by God strictly on the basis of his God-given conscience. We are not discussing salvation, neither are we discussing people who have been born again.

So what you will have to conclude is that a Christian in the flesh cannot please God, but an unbeliever in the flesh can please God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem with free will arguments is that whether God made man with free will or not, He still made man to grow corrupt.

God created man and called that creation "good". And Adam didn't "grow corrupt". He became corrupt; he didn't grow into it. God created Adam and Eve with freedom to make their own choices. And Eve was deceived and sinned, and Adam knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where have I said that was the question I answered?

OK. Never mind, then.

 

[nobdysfool]

This Scripture has NO BEARING on the subject. This is written to Christians and is a teaching for Christians (the justified ones) since THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. We are talking about the natural man, not the weak Christian.

(Pro 21:4) An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

If even the plowing of the wicked is sin, that indicates that everything the wicked do, is sin.

 

[clemenslee]

Just to add my two cents into the equation, without going into all 5 points of the Calvinist view, but strictly dealing with Total Depravity. While not a calvinist, arminian, or other wise, I can agree with this statement that man is dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), and there is nothing that a person can do on their own will to remove those sins and trespasses. I don't really think that is the issue on either side of the debate. The issues is how being dead in sins is defined: According to the Calvinist view they equate being dead in sins with complete death. To clarify a person dead in sins is the same as a person laying on a table dead and unable to respond to the Gospel much less anything else therefore completely Inable. I which that individual would require Regeneration (Irresistable Grace) first to be able to respond. They will often use Lazereth as an example. But this is not what Ephesian 2:1 is saying.

Ephesians 2:1-Just means that we all have fallen short of the Glory of God (Romans 3), which is sin. Doesn't matter if its fallen short an inch or a mile you have broken Gods law. The penalty for breaking Gods law is death. (Romans 5). Does that mean that the person is dead. No- Means as Good as dead. Its death of the soul when we leave this earth, if we have sin staining our record that our soul wont be raised to eternal salvation. we will die in eternity. Right?

To make a analogy, not all analogies are perfect: We in western society have Death Row. Ever heard the term "Dead man Walking. Its whats being described in Ephesians 2:1. A person breaks the law, and for breaking the law is sentenced to death, (The bible says you break Gods law the penalty is death). Now until this criminal on death row is actually dead, and unless they have a pardon, they are considered as "Good as Dead", (Bible speaking its the same-You break Gods law (sin) we are sentenced to death and considered as good as dead unless we have a pardon to remove that sin off our record, which the pardon is the blood of Christ). No- since this Inmate is As good as dead is he completely disabled to do anything, how about accepting or rejecting a pardon?

Now what I want to provide is 2 words that we all have heard believer or not, and show that they require something from us as sinners apart from God. Remember Calvinist say that a person requires regeneration first to respond to the Gospel. With that in mind, the 2 words are Believe and Repent. Let me make very clear I'm not talking about WORKS when I said it requires something from the sinner! As I've already stated there is not a thing that a person can do to remove sin by their own will from their record to have merit to boldly approach Gods throne (Hebrews).

Believe is Pisteuo in the Greek. Its made up of 2 Greek words Pistis and Peithos. Pistis - Means to trust or have faith with Confidence, some say to entrust with confidence. Peithos - Means to persuade or be persuaded. And if you put the 2 together you have the Literal definition of Believe: To trust or have faith with confidence in something/object/thing because you have been persuaded that the something/object/thing is true. In our case its being persuaded by what we have heard by the Gospel to be true. Concerning our Lord Jesus Christ.

Go to John 3

V15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
v16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believeth in these 2 verses are Pisteuo: We looked at the definition already. So these verses should read in context: That whosoever Believeth (Trusts/Entrusts/ or haves faith (Action) with confidence in me Jesus Christ) because you have been persuaded by what you heard (here is the living word because Christ has not finished his work, now in our time the Gospel) concerning me (John 3:1-16, really the prophets as well) That I Jesus Christ am the only begotten (V16) Son of God that came down from heaven, and That I Jesus Christ will be raised. And through the water and Spirit will raise you as well and you will not perish but have everlasting life. If they believe in what they heard is confirmed in V11 of the same chapter.

You will see that both Believe and Repent go hand in hand, you cannot separate them. Repent, now nine times our of ten if you ask somebody what repent means they will say to turn from sin or repent of sin. I'm not going to go into debate on this topic here. Repent in the Greek in Metanoia. It simply means a Change of mind. Go to Mark 1:14-15

v14: Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
v15: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Since I've covered the meaning of Believe and Repent lets see what Christ is saying here. v15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent (have a change of mind) and believe (Pisteuo: trust with confidence because you've been persuaded by what you've heard to be true concerning Christ) the gospel.

Literally have a change of mind to Trust with confidence in me Jesus Christ because you've been persuaded that the Gospel message you heard concerning me is True. That I Jesus Christ can remove your sins, and that the Kingdom of your redemption is at hand.

As you can see both Believe and Repent are on the part of the sinner. These are not my words but by Christ himself. He is asking for a response from them. Do you see regeneration first? No.

This is all based on what the sinner heard, which is the Gospel. The Calvinist says that we a unable to respond to the Gospel unless regenerated first by God. But how does the Gospel produce and change of mind to persuade and product Trust with confidence? Simple Its has the power of God.

Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word cuts straight to the SOUL and SPIRIT. Its a DISCERNER of the INTENTS of the HEART! Its QUICK and POWERFUL! It will bring conviction to allow a FREE WILL CHOICE to accept or reject! Not a work, but a conviction to lay down and submit your self willingly to God to say I cant save my self. I can't remove my sin, I give it all to you. I Entrust with Confidence my life and the sin etc. into your hands. And the Glory is all to God.

To say that a person dead in sin is unable to respond to the Gospel is to contradict the power of the Gospel. To make my last point. Ephesians 1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:13 - I believe sums it all up. Paul talking to Christians, about how they had salvation before they became believers. It lays out the order of the process.

1: AFTER they HEARD the WORD of TRUTH- The GOSPEL-The Power of God to Salvation.
2: Then they Trusted/Believed (Pisteuo) with Confidence in Christ because the Gospel they heard brought persuasion. which caused repentance or a change of mind, even though not directly referenced.
3: AFTER 1 & 2 - Then they were sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise!

I think I clearly shown that we're not completely inable to make a response to the Gospel which is the Call/Ivintation of God unto salvation just because we all have fallen short of his Law, and have sin. Thanks.

 

[Job8]

(Pro 21:4) An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

If even the plowing of the wicked is sin, that indicates that everything the wicked do, is sin.

But, as already shown from Scripture, not all men are WICKED. There is a huge difference between being born a sinner by birth (as are all) and being a wicked person. Not all are wicked, therefore this Scripture has no bearing on the subject. God says that many who have not the Law do the works of the Law. Please go back and study that passage.

 

[Hammster]

But, as already shown from Scripture, not all men are WICKED. There is a huge difference between being born a sinner by birth (as are all) and being a wicked person. Not all are wicked, therefore this Scripture has no bearing on the subject. God says that many who have not the Law do the works of the Law. Please go back and study that passage.

But as has been shown from scripture, apart from faith it's impossible to please God. And it has been shown that man cannot please God in the flesh. Scripture make no differentiation between saved and lost in this regard. In addition, Jesus said only His sheep will hear His voice and follow.

 

[nobdysfool]

But, as already shown from Scripture, not all men are WICKED. There is a huge difference between being born a sinner by birth (as are all) and being a wicked person. Not all are wicked, therefore this Scripture has no bearing on the subject. God says that many who have not the Law do the works of the Law. Please go back and study that passage.

If one is not right with God, i.e. a Born Again Believer, in His eyes they are wicked. All men are born wicked, and some become even more wicked as they live their lives, but a sinner, by definition, is wicked in God's eyes. So your attempt to reclassify some men as not wicked, yet not saved falls flat.

 

[Job8]

If one is not right with God, i.e. a Born Again Believer, in His eyes they are wicked. All men are born wicked, and some become even more wicked as they live their lives, but a sinner, by definition, is wicked in God's eyes. So your attempt to reclassify some men as not wicked, yet not saved falls flat.

I'm not reclassifying anyone. Romans 2:10-16 is as much the Word of God as the rest of Romans. So take some time to digest what God is telling us in this portion. “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:”

The context makes it clear that God is not calling them "wicked".

 

[Job8]

But as has been shown from scripture, apart from faith it's impossible to please God. And it has been shown that man cannot please God in the flesh. Scripture make no differentiation between saved and lost in this regard. In addition, Jesus said only His sheep will hear His voice and follow.

The necessity of faith is in regards to being justified before God. The only way for sinners to please God is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. But God is not telling us that those who act according to their conscience and do right are justified -- they are simply doing right instead of wrong. Neither are they wicked, and God is a very righteous Judge, who knows every act and motive.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not reclassifying anyone. Romans 2:10-16 is as much the Word of God as the rest of Romans. So take some time to digest what God is telling us in this portion. “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:”

The context makes it clear that God is not calling them "wicked".

But they are not acting in faith, even if they happen to do something in accordance with the law. So it is still sinful because they are not doing it for God's glory.

 

[sdowney717]

But they are not acting in faith, even if they happen to do something in accordance with the law. So it is still sinful because they are not doing it for God's glory.

That is a truism for sure.
Romans 14 basically says this too.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

This makes general sense for all people, as those who have not a saving faith in Christ will die in their unforgiven sins.

 

[sdowney717]

Leviticus 5 speaks of the seriousness of sins committed even in ignorance. Such a person is guilty of sin and these sins done without knowing any better, such a person has 'certainly trespassed against the LORD'. That ignorance is no excuse is still alive today, for all those who have never heard of Christ will still die in the sins they commit ignorantly, not knowing any better, they have transgressed the commandment of God to believe in His Son. Acts 17 tells us God commands men everywhere to repent and believe, and they are held accountable whether they heard or have not heard the gospel.

17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity. 18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him. 19 It is a trespass offering; he has certainly trespassed against the Lord.”

The above were for people in covenant with God, but the below is for all types of people everywhere. The former times regarding the gentiles, God overlooked in some way, but now no longer. The way of salvation has been opened up to the entire world.
Christ is the final revelation of the grace of God which is for all peoples.

Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Job8]

But they are not acting in faith, even if they happen to do something in accordance with the law. So it is still sinful because they are not doing it for God's glory.

Unless God calls it "sinful" we do not have the liberty or the right to change what God has said in His Word. So please do a proper exegesis of that passage.

 

[Hammster]

Unless God calls it "sinful" we do not have the liberty or the right to change what God has said in His Word. So please do a proper exegesis of that passage.

It's clear that you

Unless God calls it "sinful" we do not have the liberty or the right to change what God has said in His Word. So please do a proper exegesis of that passage.

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. - Romans 8:6-9

It's clear that if your mind is not set on the Spirit, you are hostile to God. You may try to claim that this only applies to believers. But if it's for believers, how much more should it apply to those who are hostile to God by nature?

But Paul make the point that he is not talking about believers who sin when he says that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. So those in the flesh, unbelievers, cannot please God. They are hostile to him. They are, by nature, children of wrath.

 

[Received]

We're getting a little meaty here, Taylor, so let me respond to the main points as I see them.

And yet, we are taught that man is unable to accept outside of divine enablement (John 6:44), yet held fully responsible if he does not.

This verse only indicates that a draw is necessary for salvation; this doesn't at all mean it's sufficient (i.e., irresistible grace). This says nothing about God making the contradictory action of overriding someone's will a blaming them for it.

Isaiah 10, again, really does paint a clear picture of this. I don't understand how it is missed. Could you please explain why you don't think so? The Assyrians are described as being weapons in God's hand, and are punished both for their sin and for even thinking that they did something themselves!

I don't see that in the scripture you're quoting, perhaps because you're using the King James version rather than a more meticulous translation. I see no evidence of God punishing them for what he used them for.

I don't think so. Rather than one or the other being responsible, I believe this is a wonderful expression of compatibilism. That is, divine predestination and human responsibility are not incompatible. This has expressions in both secular philosophy and Christian theism. In this specific case, men are fully responsible for the acts God fully ordained them to do. So, would you that Pilate's and Herod's deeds were not wicked? I say they were.

He did not kill himself, though, did he? Absolutely, he gave his life up. If a mother gives up her life to save her child from a murderer, does this then absolve the wicked man of murdering the woman? Surely not. In the same way, yes, Jesus willingly gave up his life, but it would be absurd to say that those who murdered him are thus guiltless.

I'm not saying those who murdered him are guiltless; I'm saying that because Jesus voluntarily gave up his life, and elsewhere it seems to indicate that God predestined the action, that we therefore must understand predestination as "working around" human action. You can't say you're doing something voluntarily and also say that it's involuntary (i.e., because it's predestined); therefore, it's logically necessary that Jesus meant that predestination doesn't annul his own choice (and by extension anyone else in general), or else we have a contradiction in scripture.

You seem to affirm that Romans chapter 5 affirms condemnation, but not responsibility. This se

Yes, condemnation to death because of sin. Sin by its very nature brings death, and therefore it's fitting to speak of the condemnation of sin.

 

[St_Worm2]

This verse [John 6:44] only indicates that a draw is necessary for salvation; this doesn't at all mean it's sufficient (i.e., irresistible grace). This says nothing about God making the contradictory action of overriding someone's will a blaming them for it.

Hi Received, for something even more "irresistible" , see v37-40, which says in part,

"All that the Father gives Me will come to me and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." John 6:37-40​

John 6:44 does indicate what Taylor stipulated however, that 1) any who come to Christ must be enabled to do so by the Father, and that 2) the Son will save those who are "drawn" to Him.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44​

Yours and His,
David

 

[Received]

Hi Received, for something even more "irresistible" , see v37-40, which says in part,

"All that the Father gives Me will come to me and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." John 6:37-40​

John 6:44 does indicate what Taylor stipulated however, that 1) any who come to Christ must be enabled to do so by the Father, and that 2) the Son will save those who are "drawn" to Him.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44​

Yours and His,
David

Hi David, maybe "simply irresistible" should be the official song for Calvinism.

I don't see those verses as tightly indicating Calvinism, largely given that there are no criteria given for how the father gives the "all" to Christ. Same thing with John 6:44: nobody can come to Christ except through the father drawing him, but it doesn't indicate who is drawn or how drawing works.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi David, maybe "simply irresistible" should be the official song for Calvinism.

I don't see those verses as tightly indicating Calvinism, largely given that there are no criteria given for how the father gives the "all" to Christ. Same thing with John 6:44: nobody can come to Christ except through the father drawing him, but it doesn't indicate who is drawn or how drawing works.

I'm not following you as the parameters that have been drawn by these verses seem clear enough. For instance, it is not necessary to know 'who' is drawn or 'how' the drawing works for v44's, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" to be true in and of itself, so please elaborate.

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - Happy Reformation Day

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi David, maybe "simply irresistible" should be the official song for Calvinism.

I don't see those verses as tightly indicating Calvinism, largely given that there are no criteria given for how the father gives the "all" to Christ. Same thing with John 6:44: nobody can come to Christ except through the father drawing him, but it doesn't indicate who is drawn or how drawing works.

I believe the answer to that great question is found in the very next verse: “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

What I hear is that those who have listened (heard) and learned come to Jesus.