Liturgical "trappings"

[Ignatius21]

I had a very good discussion with a Protestant friend last week, who asked a number of good questions about Orthodoxy (and Catholicism with which he's more familiar). He observed--rightly--that Christianity existed and functioned well before the very high, formalized liturgies were established, and long before great wealth was able to produce gilded cathedrals and gold-plated gospel books. And of course we'd agree, that true worship can (and often has) take place in a prison cell among believers who aren't even allowed to have a cross or a Bible, just as much as it can happen in the most ornate of churches.

He asked whether the "liturgical stuff" in Orthodoxy really is still made of gold I'm sure in many places it is...but in the churches I've visited in America, the gospel books are covered in gold plastic. Our bishop's staff is made of plastic. To which he asked, "Doesn't that strike you as, you know, kinda fake?" His point stuck with me...in making liturgical objects out of cheap plastic, aren't we making a very poor attempt to live in the past in some sense? It's like, we can't actually afford to decorate churches the way they were done when emperors financed them...would we be better and more authentic to simplify our worship rather than make cheap imitations of what used to be?

Thoughts? (And by "simplify" I don't mean *change* the worship, but rather the "trappings" of the worship as my friend referred to them.)

 

[gzt]

Gold plastic? Are you sure?

 

[Anhelyna]

Can't answer for our Gospel Book since I obviously can't actually handle it but I do know that our Bishop's staff is not plastic since I have had a close look at it.

Our Chalice is most definitely gold , not gilded

 

[Cappadocious]

He observed--rightly--that Christianity existed and functioned well before the very high, formalized liturgies were established

I think that Christianity has always existed and functioned with liturgies that your friend might consider high and formalized, though not as high and formalized as today.

 

[Cappadocious]

Our bishop's staff is made of plastic. To which he asked, "Doesn't that strike you as, you know, kinda fake?" His point stuck with me...in making liturgical objects out of cheap plastic, aren't we making a very poor attempt to live in the past in some sense?

Has gold lost its beauty and meaning? If not, then no.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Yeah, I've never encountered plastic in Orthodoxy. In fact I've had conversations with friends about how Orthodoxy is authentic as compared to a lot of what we experience in the rest of the world, which we called "the plastic world." Every Gospel book I've seen, every Epistle book that has had a cover, Icons used in churches, they've all had real metal on them. I believe things which come into contact with the Eucharist have to be gilded in precious metals.

If it came down to having to choose between using a lesser material than gold to cover the Gospel book - say a wood-carved cover - or a plastic which imitated gold, I would vote heavily for the wood. I've seen some beautiful wood Gospel covers. Ultimately it's all about giving the best we can (which is usually gold if we have a large enough parish of donors).

And I agree with Cappadocious - there's no evidence that Christian services have ever been anything but liturgical and formal. All the evidence we have points to the opposite, including, as far as I can remember, that the space for the liturgical celebration was decorated as nicely as possible. Even in prisons they'll try to clean the area or something, to give the liturgy the respect it deserves.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes I don't think our Gospel book is covered in plastic. The one Father brings out, I THINK is enameled. I'll have to check.

I've wondered that. Once I asked as an inquirer if they couldn't have communion in a poor parish in a 3rd world country if all they had was a wooden chalice, etc - and I was told no, they cannot. I'm not positive if that's accurate.

I have great appreciation, as I'm sure we all (at least almost all surely) do, for the reverence implied to all that we hold sacred by the richly embellished liturgical implements. Of course we can worship God without these things, but as I've recently found by having a gilded icon and praying by the light of candles instead of incandescent light, these things can make a difference. Perhaps it's my human weakness, but I was pleased that a priest told me the Fathers mentioned such things 1500 years ago.

Subscribing. More interested in everyone else's answers.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I had a very good discussion with a Protestant friend last week, who asked a number of good questions about Orthodoxy (and Catholicism with which he's more familiar). He observed--rightly--that Christianity existed and functioned well before the very high, formalized liturgies were established, and long before great wealth was able to produce gilded cathedrals and gold-plated gospel books. And of course we'd agree, that true worship can (and often has) take place in a prison cell among believers who aren't even allowed to have a cross or a Bible, just as much as it can happen in the most ornate of churches.

He asked whether the "liturgical stuff" in Orthodoxy really is still made of gold I'm sure in many places it is...but in the churches I've visited in America, the gospel books are covered in gold plastic. Our bishop's staff is made of plastic. To which he asked, "Doesn't that strike you as, you know, kinda fake?" His point stuck with me...in making liturgical objects out of cheap plastic, aren't we making a very poor attempt to live in the past in some sense? It's like, we can't actually afford to decorate churches the way they were done when emperors financed them...would we be better and more authentic to simplify our worship rather than make cheap imitations of what used to be?

Thoughts? (And by "simplify" I don't mean *change* the worship, but rather the "trappings" of the worship as my friend referred to them.)

Some of this reminds me of what was shared before when it came to the issue of how things done in a simpler state in the Church doesn't mean that all things developing afterward were disconnected. As said there:

I didn't know what to title this thread, but I would like to know how you would answer this. The pastor of a local conservative evangelical, non denominational chapel challenged my Orthodox leanings like this-

Man has erected barriers between themselves and God, such as liturgy, priests etc. What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church? So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

I think it seems to be assumed that others speaking to each other with psalms/hymns and spiritual songs or reading the Word did so outside of Liturgy. However, even in synagouges, the songs sung were done so in a liturgical style. That was a basic part of Jewish culture and heritage. For reference:

• First-century Christian synagogue liturgy | s i l o u a n

Fr. James Bernstein is another excellent individual whom I'd highly recommend studying - if investigating resources such as Fr. James Bernstein and Orthodoxy - OoCities. Fr. James Bernstein is Jewish, grew up in Orthodox Judaism and eventually came into Orthodoxy due to seeing the connections between the Jewish heritage he saw given from the Lord and what was present in the Church. Many Jews, actually, have repeatedly noted how they find that a Judaic heritage is much more present within Liturgical circles than it is in many that simply have a Bible study, a 30 minute sermon and then going home.

Also, others having only the Torah or other scrolls from the OT didn't mean that they didn't want more and would not have gone for it if it was made available in the same way we have it now. And of course, there were other songs done that did not automatically have a liturgical style to it. Some songs sung were based on the cultural heritage of musical styles and oral tradition - some done with clapping and others with dancing and some with repetitious phrases in the same way songs are done today. But that was one aspect of their tradition - liturgical based songs were also present and they would not have been against that.

In any case, in places where there are no liturgical songs available or even priests, that doesn't mean the Lord could not be present - it has happened throughout the Scriptures where the Lord has worked through means that seemed to be little. However, that's not to say that it was always meant to be as such - you can work in it. This is something my priest once said to me on the matter:

Orthodoxy is pre-denominational; therefore all other Christian confessions are incomplete and therefore cannot offer the full healing or therapeutic life that comes from being connected to the Church through the sacraments or channels of grace that Jesus provided. This is not being uncharitable. It is simply stating reality.

This is not a criticism or deriding other confessions anymore than stating a primitive field medical tent in the backcountry of Africa is less effective than a state of the art modern hospital here in the USA. Both serve a similar purpose but one is more effective in surgery, has better trained doctors and nurses, better equipment and methods. In short, Orthodoxy is this state of the art healing facility. Orthodoxy has a proven track record of producing healed people called saints.​

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, I have never heard of gold plastic that was used. I went around with a bishop as his driver for a spell and I can tell you that his staff is either gold or something covered in gold leaf or something.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Some of this reminds me of what was shared before when it came to the issue of how things done in a simpler state in the Church doesn't mean that all things developing afterward were disconnected.

and even then, it was only simple because of the persecution. the first Christians still went to the very richly adorned Temple until they were thrown out.

 

[AKBlessings]

My Husband's business is liturgical supply, and I can say for certain we have not supplied anything that was plastic or imitation. We often find items that are gold plated instead of solid gold, but that is it. If gold is too expensive then parish's will do without or will save up. The point is not to look the part but to give our best. If our best is small and simple, that is what it is. I personally find the thought of gold looking plastic to be sad and improper.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes I don't think our Gospel book is covered in plastic. The one Father brings out, I THINK is enameled. I'll have to check.

I've wondered that. Once I asked as an inquirer if they couldn't have communion in a poor parish in a 3rd world country if all they had was a wooden chalice, etc - and I was told no, they cannot. I'm not positive if that's accurate.

I have great appreciation, as I'm sure we all (at least almost all surely) do, for the reverence implied to all that we hold sacred by the richly embellished liturgical implements. Of course we can worship God without these things, but as I've recently found by having a gilded icon and praying by the light of candles instead of incandescent light, these things can make a difference. Perhaps it's my human weakness, but I was pleased that a priest told me the Fathers mentioned such things 1500 years ago.

Subscribing. More interested in everyone else's answers.

Yup, enameled. As are the processional fans, crosses, etc. They are made of a metal base, and very ornate. Definitely not plastic. (Not gold either I'm sure - no one would enamel over gold)

 

[AKBlessings]

Mentioned this post to my husband and he was stunned that such a thing as gold looking plastic was used. Never come across it. We do see and provide items with stones that are not real jewels, which I feel weird about, as it is essentially the same concept. I think it is better to stick with the real deal in smaller portions when decorating the church, but that is just my opinion. And I also prefer that clergy not be decked out extravagantly while serving or otherwise, only investing to decorate the church and then using the remaining funds to support the priest and those in need.

 

[gzt]

The priests vestments are often their own investment and not given by the church. They also tend to slowly accrue them over their career and last quite a long time.

 

[AKBlessings]

gzt...I realize that. I was just thinking out loud about how I would do things if anyone were to ask my opinion. ;-) I am fine with vestments for clergy. I just always tense up when I see appeals for new vestments when the parish priest already has three or four sets, or when I see a bishop in full vestments (just so ornate, and not my taste). I do not fault the traditions, the clergy, or the church for this. Rather, I just like people to dress simply, even when in our Sunday best. Does that make sense?

 

[E.C.]

I think part of this is because as human beings we like to beautify things that we love. That and we have this weakness for paying attention to things that are pleasing to the eye. The gold-plated Gospel books and chalice and other "trappings" are no exception.

 

[prodromos]

I read somewhere that the Gospels are encased in precious metal because it would be inappropriate to wrap the words of life in the skins of dead animals. Or something to that effect.
Makes me think a bit differently about my leather bound bibles.

 

[AKBlessings]

Wow, I have never heard that about the bible, but it does make me think....