Liberals are Tolerant and Progressive?

[PastorJim]

I cant say I've ever met or even seen a conservative who advocates and who was for bigger government

People for bigger government who say they're conservatives are kind of like the people in General Apologetics who say that they used to be Christians, but don't have a clue what Christianity teaches.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I cant say I've ever met or even seen a conservative who advocates and who was for bigger government

Well, a whole new agency was created under the current conservative administration.

Department of Homeland Security.

I'd say that's even beyond advocating.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Well, a whole new agency was created under the current conservative administration.

Department of Homeland Security.

I'd say that's even beyond advocating.

Didnt Powell who is for obama head that up?

 

[PastorJim]

Well, a whole new agency was created under the current conservative administration.

I'm not convinced George Bush is really a conservative. He has some conservative ideas, but I don't think he's really committed to conservative principles.

He's a moderate, at best.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Didnt Powell who is for obama head that up?

That was Tom Ridge. And the agency itself was created by the President.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Powell didnt have anything to do with it? Are you certain about that?

 

[PastorJim]

Powell didnt have anything to do with it? Are you certain about that?

Yes, that was Tom Ridge.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Actually it was Rumsfeild and Powell who was critical in its creation and Tom Ridge was its first apointment : http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=43669

 

[Alpine]

I'm not convinced George Bush is really a conservative. He has some conservative ideas, but I don't think he's really committed to conservative principles.

He's a moderate, at best.

That shouldn't come as a surprise. He campaigned as a moderate who leaned right.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Then, by definition, they are not conservatives.

Not true conservatives for sure, since traditional American conservatism has at its core a dislike and suspicion of big government. But so many of these non-conservative conservatives call themselves conservatives, and they currently seem to be running the Republican party. It makes me reluctant to call myself one, for fear of being mistaken for one of their ilk.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

People for bigger government who say they're conservatives are kind of like the people in General Apologetics who say that they used to be Christians, but don't have a clue what Christianity teaches.

Agreed there too, but where are the real conservatives, the small government, constitutionalist conservatives? I know of a few in politics (Bob Barr, Ron Paul, Mike Pence) and a few who used to be in politics but are now are on FNC (Newt Gingrich, John Kasich), but they aren't running the show.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Powell didnt have anything to do with it? Are you certain about that?

You asked who headed it up...that was Ridge. "Heading up" and creating are two seperate animals.


Honestly I'm not sure about how much Powell was or wasn't involved.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Actually it was Rumsfeild and Powell who was critical in its creation and Tom Ridge was its first apointment : http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=43669

There you go.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I'm not convinced George Bush is really a conservative. He has some conservative ideas, but I don't think he's really committed to conservative principles.

He's a moderate, at best.

Yep.

 

[porterross]

I'm not convinced George Bush is really a conservative. He has some conservative ideas, but I don't think he's really committed to conservative principles.

He's a moderate, at best.

Yes and one of his biggest problems is the obvious preference he gives to big business. That and the rush to war in Iraq are a big part of why the left is so venomous, which is somewhat justified. It's just that going to the extreme opposite mindset of economic reform that Obama puts forth will only cause increased chaos and negative reaction of an opposite force.

The rules of the universe are constant. For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction. See, physics is applicable to politics, too.

 

[PastorJim]

That and the rush to war in Iraq...

Huh? It was almost three years. Since when (not counting the Postal Service and DMV) is three years a "rush"?

 

[Angel4Truth]

You asked who headed it up...that was Ridge. "Heading up" and creating are two seperate animals.


Honestly I'm not sure about how much Powell was or wasn't involved.

Nice - but its clear by what you said and what I said that "heading it up " meant creation of the department (expansion of government was the context) NOT who heads the office - is what was being discussed - we can thank Powell who supports Obama .

But then congress also blamed bush for passing policies they enacted into law when they are democrat controlled. They also blame him for things that failed to pass even though its their fault it failed to pass.

Larger picture though a real conservative is not for larger government - they are for less.

 

[porterross]

Huh? It was almost three years. Since when (not counting the Postal Service and DMV) is three years a "rush"?

How much elapsed between the warnings of the need to search for WMD and the shock and awe? Why wasn't more done to ensure that BinLaden was captured prior to that time?

It was handled poorly and it all happened too fast, yes. We had unfinished business elsewhere and as horrific as Hussein was, at least the world knew who was in power there.

My Iranian friends compared it to removing the only teacher an unruly group of 5 year olds had ever known. It's simply not something you can do overnight without mass chaos and a lack of understanding who's now in charge by those who never really grasped the idea of a need to be responsibility because everything had always been provided for them.

Unfortunately, the manner in which the whole situation was handled showed how little the Bush administration understood, or cared to know, the very different culture he was going into with forced western ideals and military operations. Hasn't our own experience shown us that the best way to undermine terrorists is from the inside out?

Hussein was a monster, no doubt, but it bothers me that so many civilians have been killed and injured because of our attacks in Iraq and I can't help think it wasn't necessary. There had to be a number of better ways to handle what looks like nothing short of payback against the wrong villain for an attack he didn't make on our country.

 

[Secundulus]

How much elapsed between the warnings of the need to search for WMD and the shock and awe? Why wasn't more done to ensure that BinLaden was captured prior to that time?

It was handled poorly and it all happened too fast, yes. We had unfinished business elsewhere and as horrific as Hussein was, at least the world knew who was in power there.

My Iranian friends compared it to removing the only teacher an unruly group of 5 year olds had ever known. It's simply not something you can do overnight without mass chaos and a lack of understanding who's now in charge by those who never really grasped the idea of a need to be responsibility because everything had always been provided for them.

Unfortunately, the manner in which the whole situation was handled showed how little the Bush administration understood, or cared to know, the very different culture he was going into with forced western ideals and military operations. Hasn't our own experience shown us that the best way to undermine terrorists is from the inside out?

Hussein was a monster, no doubt, but it bothers me that so many civilians have been killed and injured because of our attacks in Iraq and I can't help think it wasn't necessary. There had to be a number of better ways to handle what looks like nothing short of payback against the wrong villain for an attack he didn't make on our country.

We fought a brillliant war for the first two weeks to conquer the country, However, the President, the Pentagon, the Military Commanders, and the State Department, did not plan to deal with the aftermath. Worse, once they did develop a plan after they were already on the ground, it did nothing but exacerbate the situation. Pres Bush, Sec of Def Rumsfield, Sec of State Powell, The CIA, and GEN Franks are all at fault for failing to collect intelligence, for failing to analyze it properly, and for failing to have a plan.

The amazing thing is that the only plan we had in advance was to conquer the country and then to leave them to their own devices after three months.

I don't say this as an anti-war liberal but as a retired Army Conservative who has done some reading on what happened during that initial period.

 

[porterross]

We fought a brillliant war for the first two weeks to conquer the country, However, the President, the Pentagon, the Military Commanders, and the State Department, did not plan to deal with the aftermath. Worse, once they did develop a plan after they were already on the ground, it did nothing but exacerbate the situation. Pres Bush, Sec of Def Rumsfield, Sec of State Powell, The CIA, and GEN Franks are all at fault for failing to collect intelligence, for failing to analyze it properly, and for failing to have a plan.

The amazing thing is that the only plan we had in advance was to conquer the country and then to leave them to their own devices after three months.

I don't say this as an anti-war liberal but as a retired Army Conservative who has done some reading on what happened during that initial period.

I'm not an anti-war liberal either, but the daughter of a Marine, graduate of a university with a strong military history and fiance of a retired Army officer. When the announced was made that we were threatening with an invasion, everyone I know was gobsmacked. It just all came about with no time for a cohesive and culture-sensitive plan.

You should have some exchanges with my fiance. I swear he needs to be lecturing at Sandhurst or West Point, but the way he goes on about the comparisons with al queda to the IRA really makes sense and the Brits didn't unbalance the IRA by taking them head on in combat long term. It simply didn't work. It's all a bit over my head and I can't repeat his logical, but accurate scenarios, but if I need a sleep aid, I'll ask him to explain the comparison again.