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Left Wing Philosophical Evil

Discussion in 'Archived - Ethics & Morality' started by Battered Angel, Oct 5, 2003.

  1. Battered Angel

    Battered Angel New Member

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    It is interesting to see fascists projecting fascism on the belief they hate. It is nothing new. Communists have always deluded their people into believing Christianity to be a seditious ideology. Atheists have labeled themselves free-thinkers while they mass murdered their citizens through communist governments. Over 100, 000, 000 citizens spanning from Cambodia, to China, to the former Soviet Union, were butchered by Left leaning dictators in the twentieth century alone (more deaths than the sum total of all recorded wars in history combined), who hated individual liberty, genuine free thought, and Christianity the womb from which they sprang. Today, left wing snipes caricature Christians and Christianity as oppressive, yawnnnn. Christians are of course bigots, homophobes, anti-female, killers of the enivornment, punishers of criminals, anti-liberty, fascists, ...the same dialectical lie, rehashed throughout every category of life. Marx would be sooo proud. These are typical projections spawned in the soul of those who drink the communist koolaid without criticism. Yes they are communists or liberal socialists, not far off. Just watch their coming hysteria, if you don't believe me. If you have read the former posts, many of them, you would think that there is no absolute truth, except of course for the accusers of Xny. You see, their truth, is absolute, yet strangely they impugn the notion that absolutes exist. Yet if absolutes exist, fascists spawn out of them, like right-wing Christians, except of course their own absolutism, fanaticism, their own fascism. The hypocrisy, projectionism, and deceit are plainly visible.
    They are playing games here, because their lives are essentially without meaning, their worlds miserable, and their natures evil. They need therefore to make the rest of us miserable. That is their legacy, their mission, the legacy they will stand before Christ with. "We accused your people of tyranny in order to injure them, we came to their sites in order to destroy their doctrine, your doctrine, we lived our lives in antagonism toward you and your people. What sin have we committed?" They need to hear that God's future world will be a monarchy, and they will be cast into hell, lest they repent of their sad and evil lives, and turn to the living Christ, like the rest of us who are saved. Of course the mention of hell is a grevious violation of free thought, you see, to them. For it reveals that our current actions, deeds, and thoughts, have consequences in the afterlife, and that must be expunged, villified, and beat down at all costs before somebody gets convicted. It is against my freedom to do evil.
    Oh, and by the way, Christianity in the West is cheifly responsible for the promotion of self-government and individual liberty. Yes, that is why the liberals, socialists, communists, and Islam hate us. Because they want to control the economies of the world, the vocational aspirations of its citizens, and their thoughts; but, gosh darnit those bloody Americans keep getting in the way. Those Americans, who cherish individual liberty, grounded in the doctrines of the dignity of man, found in the Old and New Testaments. Those Protestants who have promoted the work ethic that has revolutionized the west, and indited the socialists, commies, and Islamo fascists. Those Protestants who resisted tyrannical forms of Christianity in Rome, and promoted an individualism which birthed a myriad of protestant views which led to a diversity of Chrurches. Alas we discover, it is the communism and socialism of Europe that makes men sheep, easily led to the trofts of government, to redistributiuon schemes bent on destroying self-government, who prop up criminal governments to loot the citizenry, and trust in them.
    They will continue to spew their own tyranny on us and parade it before us all daily, until God brings history to its final day, and thus will end their foolsparade, and commence the revelation of their hate before the whole moral universe. Sadly.
     
  2. Teh Wiccan

    Teh Wiccan The Balance Of Passion

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    There is a difference between communism and a dictatorship. In true communism, there is no central government, and no one leader. There also wouldn't be a need to kill citizens.

    Those countries were dictatorships, not communist.
     
  3. Havoc

    Havoc Celtic Witch

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    Battered Angel:



    I am neither, communist, nor fascist, nor Islamic. I am not an atheist, or a socialist, and I am most certainly not a relativist.

    Yet I can see that your post is the product of the mind of a hateful, prejudiced, small minded person who really doesn't know the meaning of the phrase "absolute truth".

    So maybe it's not the fault of all those other people that you're a Bigot.
     
    ej likes this.
  4. Arikay

    Arikay HI

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    There are a couple glaring problems.

    "Atheists have labeled themselves free-thinkers while they mass murdered their citizens through communist governments."

    First problem.
    While many communist governments tried to be atheists.
    Few Free Atheists try to be like the communist governments.

    Atheism is also a very large category. All atheism means is the lack of or no belief in god or gods. Nothing more, Nothing less. It may interest you that Buddhists can be atheists, and there have been many buddhists killed by the oppressive communist governments.

    Thus you have incorrectly labelled most, if not all, atheists oppressive communists, when any bit of study would prove this untrue, especially in the US.

    "Today, left wing snipes caricature Christians and Christianity as oppressive... ...Marx would be sooo proud."

    Second Problem.

    You incorrectly connect Communism with the Left. I would only assume this was an attempt to connect them to the bahaviors of oppressive communism.


    "Over 100, 000, 000 citizens spanning from Cambodia, to China, to the former Soviet Union, were butchered by Left leaning dictators in the twentieth century alone (more deaths than the sum total of all recorded wars in history combined), who hated individual liberty, genuine free thought, and Christianity the womb from which they sprang."

    Ahah, here you have correctly labeled the problem, unfortunatly you quickly stray from it.

    Did this dictators (something that is not part of true communism) do this because of their atheism beliefs? Did they do it because of their communist beliefs, did they do it because of their alignment with the left side? Nope, they did it because they were powerhungry, they hated individual liberty and anything that seperated them from their dirrect power. Since they did not choose christianity as their leash on their people, as others have done in the past, they forbid it, as it could be dangerous, just like any other religion that did not put them in control.


    As far as the rest. I feel sorry that you have this hate inside you, I would recomend examining yourself before you spew it out against others. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In otherwords, examine yourself before you blame others.


     
  5. Karl - Liberal Backslider

    Karl - Liberal Backslider Senior Veteran

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    Projection indeed.

    How do you think liberals themselves feel about the villification we receive from the right wing?
     
  6. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    Thank you , Battered Angel, for giving the devil his due. Athiests and free-thinkers are never short on words to describe the horrors that Christianity has unleashed upon the world, and yet ithe speck in the Chistian's eye can't compare to the log in their own. The wars of the twentieth century have not been so much one of principalities, but have been fought over the ideologies.
    Athiests such as Marx who, following the ideas of Hegel that the individual is of little consequence when compared to the needs of the all-encompassing state, have created states where the butchery of the 100 million souls is of no concern. On the other side of the spectrum lies fascism. Animated by the pitiless athiesm of Nietchze's anti-Christian rantings, the compassionless "blond lion" sprang to life, leaving a swath of destruction that all but destroyed Europe's position of global moral leadership.
    The meaningless, joylessly pessimistic worldviews of athiests such as Schopenhauer, Camus, Satre and their followers have left the Western World in such a state that which many of hardly find it worthwhile to procreate.
    If Battered Angel speaks against such an abomination of our world with contempt and hatred, this in no way blashphemes Christ's gospel of love. To stand up for the Truth, we must also make a stand against the Lie. Does anybody dispute that communist countries have buthcered 100 million? Compare the plight of North Korea to South Korea, or the the former East Germany to the prosperity of West Germany. Apparently, the butchery doesn't even account for the needless suffering that athiest Communism has inflicted on the rest of its population.
    Thank you, Battered Angel, for challenging us with a very worthwhile read. Now excuse me while I leave and read you other post.:wave:


     
  7. revolutio

    revolutio Apatheist Extraordinaire

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    Isn't claiming to know the future heresy?
     
  8. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

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    The log in whose eye? It was people attempting to implement communist ideology that were to blame for those horrors, not atheism as such.

    This is like blaming Christianity on the horrors caused by Islam because both religions are monotheistic.
     
  9. foolsparade

    foolsparade New Member

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    solomon, your version of history is incorrect. maybe you can take a night class or something. Actually your ideology is more consistent with fascism than that of those names you mentioned. I would suggest that you read more about Camus, Satre, Marx, Nietzsche, etc.. you seem to know little of all. Your statement makes it hard for me to take you seriously, are you just another ranting fanatic?

    a letter nietzsche wrote to anti-semitic write Theodor Fritsch. March 29, 1887.
    Dear Sir,

    Herewith I am returning to you the three issues of your correspondence sheet, thanking you for your confidence which you permitted me to cast a glance at the muddle of principles that lie at the heart of this strange movement. Yet I ask in the future not to provide me with these [anti-Semitic] mailings: I fear, in the end, for my patience. Believe me: this abominable "wanting to have a say" of noisy dilettantes about the value of people and races, this subjection to "authorities" who are utterly rejected with cold contempt by every sensible mind (e.g., E. Dühring, R. Wagner, Ebrard, Wahrmund, P. de Lagarde—who among these in questions of morality and history is the most unqualified, the most unjust?), these constant, absurd falsifications and rationalizations of vague concepts "germanic," "semitic," "aryan," "christian," "German"—all of that could in the long run cause me to lose my temper and bring me out of the ironic benevolence with which I have hitherto observed the virtuous velleities and pharisaisms of modern Germans.

    — And finally, how do you think I feel when the name Zarathustra is mouthed by anti-Semites? ...

    Yours humbly


    Dr. Fr. Nietzsche
     
  10. the_malevolent_milk_man

    the_malevolent_milk_man New Member

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    What's your point? Atheism simply means a lack of belief in a god.

    There have been atheist, christian, buddhist, muslim, hindu, roman, norse, etc... psychotic leaders thruout history. Atheists, christians, buddhists, etc have all been persecuted.

    You're also using the atheist equivilent of the IRA and using that to describe all atheists and liberals, which is simply untrue. I assure you, when I take over the world you will be able to practice whatever religion you wish in your prison cell.
     
  11. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    As Christians, we must take responsibility for the failures engendered by our Christian systems. Undoubtedly, the pogroms against Judaism culminating in the near extermination of European Jewry under the Nazis is the one primary failure that comes to mind.
    Similarily, should not athiests be responsible for the failures of their systems? Marx was explicitly an athiest and communism was the logical result of his train of thought. Now I do realize that not all, nor even most, athiests are communists. But the fact remains that communism has so far been the most significant example of a practical athiestic system on the world stage. If we as Christians, athiest, free-thinkers, or what have you, regard human life, freedom, happiness and the well-being of the individual and his society as our supreme values, then we can only conclude that communism has been a spectacular failure. As Battered Angel implies, from the killing fields of Cambodia to the Stalin purges, Communism has become the primary example of left-wing philosophical evil.
    My contention is that Marxism's failure is not so much a result of imperfect implementation but a poor philosophical foundation. As I pointed out Marx relied on Hegel for much of his interpretation of history. I don't believe that I am incorrect in stating that in Hegel's dialectic, the absolute rights of the state take precedence over the needs of the individual. I would also contend that the tragic history of communistim is the logical result of such a philosophy.
    ************************

    I believe in my first post in this thread I expressed my disgust and contempt for authoritarian systems of both the right-wing and left-wing variety. Like most of the Christians I know, I very much believe in the values of democracy, human rights, and the dignity of the individual. I also strongly believe that such rights include the right of any individual to choose their own system of beliefs. I am certain such values are not exclusive to Christians but many people from many different backgrounds believe in them as well. Like Dark Angel, I would only point out that such values greww out of Christendom. Now if somebody comes to the conclusion that I am a fascist because of the fact that I hold Christian values, I conclude that their hearts have been hardened against the truth. I offer them my pity.
     
  12. Arikay

    Arikay HI

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    "As Christians, we must take responsibility for the failures engendered by our Christian systems."

    Unfortunatly many dont. Often when you bring up things like the crusades or witch burnings, they say that those people weren't "true christians" and thus christianity was not responsible for those actions.


    "Similarily, should not athiests be responsible for the failures of their systems?"

    The problem is, atheism is a much broader group than christianity, its equal to Theism.

    If I walked up to someone and said, "Hey theist, you need to take responsibility for flying planes into the twin towers"
    What do you think they will say. The most common answer would probably be, "Why? I do not belong to any extremist islamic group, Im not even islam."

    However, thats what many seem to do to atheists.
    I do not belong to an extremist communist group, im not even communist (or whatever you would call their group) and thus, I, as an atheist, need to take as much responsibility for that comunist groups actions, as you, as a theist, need to for the sept 11 attack.




     
  13. armed2010

    armed2010 New Member

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    Attached Files:

  14. the_malevolent_milk_man

    the_malevolent_milk_man New Member

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    Solomon brings up some good points. IE people have screwed up in all of our names.

    Equating atheism with communism is like equating christianity with monarchy.

    Also another good point arikay brings up, atheism is the opposite of theism. Lumping all atheists together is like lumping all theists together, it just isn't practical due to the diversity and disagreements within the larger community.


    People love to bring up Marx but modern atheists disagree with nearly everything he said except that there is no god(s). If you're talking to an atheist communist (I don't personally know any) then you would be justified in bringing it up and have a valid point.

    Witch burnings are still relevant today, although not quite so extreme. Just look at the Harry Potter problem. People are still scared of witchcraft and are using a religious platform to combat it. These people can be linked back to the witch burnings. Your average christian however thinks these people are nuts, thus the witch burnings don't apply to them.
     
  15. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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  16. Arikay

    Arikay HI

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    I would say that most atheists seem to want a secular world (which is different from an atheistic one).
     
  17. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    This was the first post put forward in the thread in which Battered Angel originally put forth her ideas that started out this thread. Several athiests have quite correctly responded that it would be incorrect to label ALL athiests as left-wing demons. If athiests find it offensive to be labelled as such, perhaps it is now more understandable to everyone how a Christian might likewise be offended by being labelled as fascist merely because the adhere to a Christian ideology. Far from being a monolith, Christian ideology covers a wide variety of postions all across the political spectrum.
    "The log in whose eye", indeed!! As Carl Jung points out to us, Nietzche should have been able to see the effects that his hyperbole would have on the German people.
     
  18. foolsparade

    foolsparade New Member

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    Please...:rolleyes: yes I claim that Christians have more in common with fascism than me.! Still waiting for evidence that this is not true. Let us not forget that Jung was infatuated with Nietzsche and was fighting Nietzsche's psychological formulations till the day he died. Jung said Nietzsche was insane from the time he wrote "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" if I remember correctly. I have read many books of Nietzsche's and I cannot find any evidence of insanity. Actually I find a clear but troubled mind. Carl Jung was a great admirer of Nietzsche's and perhaps there was no greater influence on Jung Than Freddy.

    below is from the Standford Encyclepdia of Philosphy, its a good resource you might want to check it out. http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html




    Specific 20th century figures who were influenced, either quite substantially, or in a significant part, by Nietzsche include painters, dancers, musicians, playwrights, poets, novelists, psychologists, sociologists, literary theorists, historians, and philosophers: Alfred Adler, Georges Bataille, Martin Buber, Albert Camus, E.M. Cioran, Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze, Isadora Duncan, Michel Foucault, Sigmund Freud, Stefan George, André Gide, Hermann Hesse, Carl Jung, Martin Heidegger, Gustav Mahler, André Malraux, Thomas Mann, Rainer Maria Rilke, Jean-Paul Sartre, Max Scheler, Giovanni Segantini, George Bernard Shaw, Lev Shestov, Georg Simmel, Oswald Spengler, Richard Strauss, Paul Tillich, Ferdinand Tönnies, Mary Wigman, William Butler Yeats and Stefan Zweig.

    That Nietzsche was able to write so prolifically and profoundly for years, while remaining in a condition of ill-health and often intense physical pain, is a testament to his spectacular mental capacities and willpower. Lesser people under the same physical pressures might not have had the inclination to pick up a pen, let alone think and record thoughts which -- created in the midst of striving for healthy self-overcoming -- would have the power to influence an entire century.
     
  19. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    In many ways Nietzche's philosophy may be seen as a response to the morose extreme pessimism of the worldview set forth by Schopenhauer. Due to the inherently meaningless, impersonal universe proposed by Schopenhauer, (which is the world view shared by many of the most educated of us today), along with the advent of Darwinism and the hypercritical school of Biblical criticism proposed by the likes of Bauer, nihilism threatened to envelope the European mind as never before. Because Nietszche's response to such nihilism was his life affirming "will to power" with its strong rejection of nihilism, many of the great minds that have preceded him have admired his brilliance and have been inspired by such a courageous vision. His decision to embrace the eternal moment of the eternally recurring world in spite of the nausea endemic in living in an inherently meaningless universe defines this courage.
    In spite of this, Jung was of course correct in his criticism of Nietzsche. By single-mindedly embracing the frenzied creativity of Dionysius, or in his admiration of the fierce warlike attributes of the Jewish God Yaweh, while at the same time downplaying the more sober second thought of the god Apollo, or the equally fierce demands of Yaweh on his to behave ethically towards the weaker memebersof society, Nietzschean philosopy has continued to have an appeal to the most sociopathic among us in their rejection of the mores of society. Such was the case in the rise of Fascism under its pyscopathic leaders.
    While Nietszche gives of the overman rising above the common man of the herd, Christianity gives us the Good Shephard tending his sheep. Without pity or compassion, what is to keep the overman from a disdainful:( repression of the herd?
     
  20. foolsparade

    foolsparade New Member

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    Yes, all those who choose to be creative and make their own values are sociopathic. Such a shame, because you do the same, but you just don't or wont realize it. :D My suggestion would be to actually read what Nietzsche wrote. Then you will see unless you choose to deny that the concept of Fascism was one of the political ideologies that Nietzsche warned against. To rally around a central figure, to support nationalism, to use mass movements as a rally cry as to urge everyone else into submission or persecution. all of this based on false absolutes. Sounds like Christianity doesn't it? Still waiting for evidence that being an individual is related to Fascism, at least more-so than Christianity.

    and now a few words from the "evil" Friedrick Nietzsche;

    "And perhaps the great day will come when people, distinguished by wars and victories and by the highest development of a military order and intelligence, and accustomed to make the heaviest sacrifices for these things, will exclaim of its own free will, "We break the sword," and will smash its entire military establishment down to its lowest foundations. Rendering oneself unarmed when one had been the best-armed, out of a height of feeling—that is the means to real peace, which must always rest on a peace of mind; whereas the so-called armed peace, as it now exists in all countries, is the absence of peace of mind. One trusts neither oneself nor one's neighbor and, half from hatred, half from fear, does not lay down arms. Rather perish than hate and fear, and twice rather perish than make oneself hated and feared—this must someday become the highest maxim for every single commonwealth." from The Wonderer and His Shadow..:wave:

    *decided to post the whole passage*

    "The means to real peace.— No government admits any more that it keeps an army to satisfy occasionally the desire for conquest. Rather the army is supposed to serve for defense, and one invokes the morality that approves of self-defense. But this implies one's own morality and the neighbor's immorality; for the neighbor must be thought of as eager to attack and conquer if our state must think of means of self-defense. Moreover, the reasons we give for requiring an army imply that our neighbor, who denies the desire for conquest just as much as does our own state, and who, for his part, also keeps an army only for reasons of self-defense, is a hypocrite and a cunning criminal who would like nothing better than to overpower a harmless and awkward victim without any fight. Thus all states are now ranged against each other: they presuppose their neighbor's bad disposition and their own good disposition. This presupposition, however, is inhumane, as bad as war and worse. At bottom, indeed, it is itself the challenge and the cause of wars, because, as I have said, it attributes immorality to the neighbor and thus provokes a hostile disposition and act. We must abjure the doctrine of the army as a means of self-defense just as completely as the desire for conquests."

    "Our liberal representatives, as is well known, lack the time for reflecting on the nature of man: else they would know that they work in vain when they work for a "gradual decrease of the military burden." Rather, only when this kind of need has become greatest will the kind of god be nearest who alone can help here. The tree of war-glory can only be destroyed all at once, by a stroke of lightning: but lightning, as indeed you know, comes from a cloud—and from up high."
     
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