ViaCrucis

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Ah! I see where some of the misunderstanding is. You're one that understands the previous covenants to be replaced by the new covenant. Covenants cannot be canceled. Each subsequent covenant builds of the previous. So as believers we're grafted in and therefore part of the covenant nation.

The misunderstanding seems to be squarely on your shoulders, as either you haven't bothered to read through, for example, Colossians ch. 2 or through the Epistle to the Hebrews.

you would see past your indoctrination

Not indoctrination. I've been studying things like this for the last 15+ years. This isn't from some pastor telling me what to believe, this is from years of constant personal study. The things I'm telling you aren't things I've ever heard a pastor I've had preach from the pulpit, these are my own thoughts based on my own study, relying heavily on the wisdom and expertise of two thousand years of Christian teaching. To believe as you do would require that I toss out my Bible and pretend Christianity began last Thursday.

There are so many lies that have been preached to us and taught to us for so long we're all struggling to move past them and study the truth for ourselves. The idea that covenant can be canceled is one of them.

Hebrews 8:13

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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For what it's worth, I never said the prior covenants were canceled (however the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews seems to say exactly that); what I have said is that the covenant which God made with the Jews at Mt. Horeb was exclusively to them; it was never given to Gentiles and one will never find it given to Gentiles. And, no, the covenant which we have in Christ is not merely an expansion of the old covenant, it is an entirely new covenant, one which the former pointed to and was a shadow of.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Interesting points. I will cogitate on them. I will however point out the items I take immediate issue with.

First - You're correct in saying that the Torah was nailed to the cross. The thing people seem to forget is that it was raised from the grave three days later! Jesus and the law are one and the same. You cannot separate them. To do so, to teach such a doctrine is completely false. God and Jesus are one. Jesus is the Word. The Word is the Law. You cannot separate them into individual things.

I will agree that some of the problems with Christianity began when judaisers began teaching that legal conversion was required. Then we started letting pagan practices in too and that just caused more problems that have continued to this day.

I disagree, the torah was the shadow, christ is the body. To say the written code is the same as Jesus is like trying to describe what you are like by just watching your shadow.

To focus on the shadow is counterproductive, because God has called us to look at the light that cast it.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

I disagree, and believe that Judaism only exists to convict everyone as guilty and in need of Christ, and Christ alone (Romans 3:19). That anyone who is practicing Judaism in any form is placing themselves "under the law" (Galatians 4:21) and thereby "under the curse" (so Jesus would say "Depart from Me, you cursed" ): Galatians 3:10, Matthew 25:41: moreover, Judaism is based on the law, which means the priesthood is of the order of Aaron, through Levi; thus Judaism cannot have Christ as High Priest since He is of Judah, and of the order of Melchizedek. Thus, by the law, the entire priesthood of Jesus Christ would be abomination: Hebrews 7:11, Hebrews 7:14-15

When Paul talks about things "of the flesh" He is talking about all things "of Judaism" which are all profitless for anything but stopping mouths and accusing all under the law of being guilty of abomination before God. The law only serves to accuse and convict: John 5:45, it is weak and profitless for any other use: Hebrews 7:18: only being made to force evil men into acting like good men out of fear of punishment: 1 Timothy 1:9: but a good man who loves others has no need to be threatened into acting like a loving person, since he is such by character, and no sin is imputed him: Romans 4:6-8, 2 Corinthians 5:19: as love covers all: Proverbs 10:12: and is the passing from death to life: 1 John 3:14, which is to say, from being children of the flesh, under law; to being children of the promise, under grace.

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant, and initiated a new covenant with a single new commandment: John 15:10, John 15:12, John 13:34-35.

9. I am not saying that everything in Judaism is correct and perfect. I am saying that Judaism was the selected method of worship practiced by our God and Savior, Jesus.

Note that Jesus was fulfilling that old covenant Himself in order to create a new covenant. He kept His Father's commandments, but, His covenant is not based upon His Father's commandments, but upon His commandment, and His covenant: Hebrews 8:8-9 (note the words not according to the covenant made with their fathers i.e. Judaism), Hebrews 8:13

10. I am not saying you are going to hell because you practice pagan rituals. I am not God and therefore I can’t make such a judgement. Face it - we've all been fooled by Satan as he has manipulated our system of faith of the last 2 millennia. And yes – contrary to popular belief, 2 billion Christians can be wrong and they are wrong on many many things.

Agree with this completely.

Speaking of Judaism Paul had this to say:

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So Paul was "blameless" touching on "righteousness which is in the law"; yet his confidence was in Christ alone. Paul teaches over and again that Judaism is useless, and even moreso, the path to destruction to those who attempt to "live by it": Romans 10:5, Galatians 3:10: but only those who live by faith are counted children of the promise: Romans 1:17: and any who draw back into the law are not pleasing to God: Hebrews 10:38: having drawn back under the curse of the law.

In fact Paul allegorizes the Sinai covenant as "Hagar" and all in that covenant "children of the flesh" i.e. Ishmael: Galatians 4:24: and these under the law of bondage will not inherit the promises through faith; but are to be cast out: Galatians 4:30: thus again we see Jesus saying to them "Depart from Me, you cursed" this is because their have placed their faith back into the own hands in an attempt to "do the law" and be justified through their "works of the flesh" (circumcision of the flesh being the sign of the covenant), and as such have removed from living by faith, to, living by law; and have once more become "accused of the law" and are sinners of great magnitude in the eyes of God through the law to which they have joined themselves: this is nothing short of joining to Hagar and becoming Ishmael; they have forsaken being of Isaac and the promise, and returned to the bondage of corruption found in Hagar/Sinai.
 
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John Hyperspace

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God has not excused you or me or anyone else from obedience. He paid the price for our inability to do so inerrantly.

Isn't this really just another way of saying "He paid the price for our inability to be obedient"? Either you are obedient, or, you are not. This "grey area" often implied doesn't really seem to exist.

Isn't "will not impute disobedience/transgression/sin" the same as saying "excuses"?
 
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John Hyperspace

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Many think that he will be the source of knowledge on how to re-institute the Aaronic priesthood.

So I seem to be asking this question a lot these days. How do you answer Hebrews 7:11? If Judaism is "the way" why would God possibley not have made Jesus a son of Levi from Aaron? Why would God possibley change the entire priesthood to Juda by way of the order of Melchizedek? What possible reason would God have to completely disregard the central and fundamental tenant of the Judaic priesthood? I sincerely believe this one thing was done to positively destroy the claims of Judaizers that the law is still in effect to Christians.

With one change of priesthood God in His wisdom wiped all of their arguments of the proverbial table. Because if this were the case, and Sinai was "the way" then God would've clearly made Jesus a Levite of the line of Aaron, in order to be our "legal" Sinai High Priest.

Couple this with Paul specifically stating that Sinai is Hagar, and her children to be cast out and I see zero hope for Judaizers to bring anyone back into bondage of corruption, except the ones who don't know scripture.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Covenants cannot be canceled.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:?

Zechariah 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.?

What makes you think a contract can't be canceled if the terms are violated? Have you ever tried to violate the terms of a contract and act as though the contract is still valid?
 
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Thursday

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Paul,

Thanks for the reply! Let me list a couple for you to consider before you say my statement is baseless and showing lack of knowledge.

Steeples - Yup, that's evil and unfortunately it's a middle finger to God on the majority of our houses of worship. Deut 16:21

Praying to the dead (i.e. "Saints") - Deut 18:11 as well as several other places.

Sunday observance rather that Sabbath observance - Too many verses to even begin to list.

Almost all buildings are pagan if you use this method, because most use some aspect of Roman or Greek architecture.

According to Jesus those who believe and live in him will never die. Those in heaven with Jesus are not dead and they can pray for us.

Sunday observance is not pagan, it is Christian. It is the Lord's day because that is when Jesus was resurrected. Jesus said that he was Lord of the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath. Does that sound Jewish?
 
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Deadworm

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The Bible teaches that there is both general revelation to pagan humanity and special revelation to Jews and Christians. The Judaeo-Christian faith has several roots in paganism. Here are just 3 examples:

(1) The practice of Holy Communion has roots in Greek mystery religions like the cult of Mithra and Dionysos, which also feature the consumption of symbolic food and drink for mystic participation in the dying and rising god.

To ply their carpentry trade, Joseph and Jesus would have marketed their wares at nearby Sepphoris, which had a population of about 25,000 in contrast to Nazareth's 300-400. Near the Sepphoris marketplace is a villa dedicated to the cult of Dionysos, which teaches the belief that this god changes water into wine. Jesus' miracle in John 2:1-11 is rich in Eucharistic symbolism, but it is also intended to help Jesus' teaching compete with the Dionysos mystery cult.

(2) The Pythia (female prophetess) at Apollo oracle shrines spoke in tongues and this practice helped establish glossolalia as one of the gifts of the Spirit. At Delphi, a male prophet would then "interpret" the Pythia's utterAnces.

(3) The emperor cult required subjects to acclaim Ceasar as "Savior" and "Lord," and these terms were borrowed to help establish Christ in these roles.
 
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JellyQuest

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Before putting this out to an open forum like this, I gave it to my brother to ask his thoughts as he is a bit more accustomed to listening to my crazy thoughts. He enthusiastically said post it! He also told me to offer you a few more verses regarding practicing our own traditions to give you more to go on.

Here's the thought -

Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

Can you please offer examples that do not fit this statement?

Deuteronomy 12:20-32 makes it clear that we're not to use pagan practices to worship God. Throughout history, we as a faith group, have removed the pagan gods from certain practices and plugged in the One True God and declared the practice “good” or even “holy”. Other verses that would indicate we shouldn’t do this – Mat 15:3; Col 2:8; Jer 10:1-5; Heb 10:26. So it would seem that anything non-Hebraic in terms of practicing our faith (there’s A LOT) is therefore evil.

Guidelines and important notes -

1. Please don't take this as an attack on your faith. I am simply trying to grow my own understanding of the Word and using your help to get me outside of my own "box" of thoughts. This is an exercise in growth and faith building for me...I hope it is for you as well.

2. Please don't get angry and rude, but please do reply with a well thought out rebuttal and explanation as to why my theory is actually inaccurate.

3. Please thoroughly research the practice you're highlighting as non-pagan and non-Hebraic to be sure it's accurately represented, because I assure you, I will.

4. This question is asked with the assumption that you acknowledge that Jesus is Jewish and therefore practiced Judaism in the fullest and an utterly obedient fashion. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and "belongs to Judaism" just as must as He "belongs to Christianity."

5. This is said with the assumption that the only source of absolute truth currently available to us is the Bible in the form generally accepted throughout greater Christianity.

6. While the Holy Spirit is a source of absolute truth, it is understood that He will never, under any circumstance, instruct you or anyone else to practice a walk of faith in contradictory manner against the written Word of God - the Bible.

7. It is understood that Jesus did not excuse you or anyone else from obedience. He did pay the price (death) for your inability to practice inerrant obedience.

8. All Biblical references used to refute my theory should be verified by 2-3 different Bible translations as some translations are written with a doctrinal leaning that often skew the true message of the Word.

9. I am not saying that everything in Judaism is correct and perfect. I am saying that Judaism was the selected method of worship practiced by our God and Savior, Jesus.

10. I am not saying you are going to hell because you practice pagan rituals. I am not God and therefore I can’t make such a judgement. Face it - we've all been fooled by Satan as he has manipulated our system of faith of the last 2 millennia. And yes – contrary to popular belief, 2 billion Christians can be wrong and they are wrong on many many things.
Why do you present an unstated premise that disciples of the Lord Jesus use paganism ?your assuming Roman Catholics.
It is my personal view that Roman Catholicism is Roman Catholicism,and disciples of Jesus are disciples of Jesus.
It was decided that no imposition of Jewish law nor custom was to be imposed upon the gentle converts save to avoid sexual immorality,eating of blood or meats(foods) offered to idols.
And here ends the entire issue.

The imperfect covenant between God and Israel.is not the covenant we are under in Christ Jesus.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It is my personal view that Roman Catholicism is Roman Catholicism,and disciples of Jesus are disciples of Jesus.

Then your personal view is wrong.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1John2:4

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The way I see it you have a few choices:

1) Convert to Judaism so you can practice Torah observance lawfully.
2) Continue to practice Christianity.
3) Violate the fundamental teachings of both religions by trying to smash them together like putting a square peg in a round hole.

-CryptoLutheran
Jesus was a Jew right? Are we not commanded to walk as He walked? 1 John 2:6
 
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1John2:4

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Before putting this out to an open forum like this, I gave it to my brother to ask his thoughts as he is a bit more accustomed to listening to my crazy thoughts. He enthusiastically said post it! He also told me to offer you a few more verses regarding practicing our own traditions to give you more to go on.

Here's the thought -

Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

Can you please offer examples that do not fit this statement?

Deuteronomy 12:20-32 makes it clear that we're not to use pagan practices to worship God. Throughout history, we as a faith group, have removed the pagan gods from certain practices and plugged in the One True God and declared the practice “good” or even “holy”. Other verses that would indicate we shouldn’t do this – Mat 15:3; Col 2:8; Jer 10:1-5; Heb 10:26. So it would seem that anything non-Hebraic in terms of practicing our faith (there’s A LOT) is therefore evil.

Guidelines and important notes -

1. Please don't take this as an attack on your faith. I am simply trying to grow my own understanding of the Word and using your help to get me outside of my own "box" of thoughts. This is an exercise in growth and faith building for me...I hope it is for you as well.

2. Please don't get angry and rude, but please do reply with a well thought out rebuttal and explanation as to why my theory is actually inaccurate.

3. Please thoroughly research the practice you're highlighting as non-pagan and non-Hebraic to be sure it's accurately represented, because I assure you, I will.

4. This question is asked with the assumption that you acknowledge that Jesus is Jewish and therefore practiced Judaism in the fullest and an utterly obedient fashion. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and "belongs to Judaism" just as must as He "belongs to Christianity."

5. This is said with the assumption that the only source of absolute truth currently available to us is the Bible in the form generally accepted throughout greater Christianity.

6. While the Holy Spirit is a source of absolute truth, it is understood that He will never, under any circumstance, instruct you or anyone else to practice a walk of faith in contradictory manner against the written Word of God - the Bible.

7. It is understood that Jesus did not excuse you or anyone else from obedience. He did pay the price (death) for your inability to practice inerrant obedience.

8. All Biblical references used to refute my theory should be verified by 2-3 different Bible translations as some translations are written with a doctrinal leaning that often skew the true message of the Word.

9. I am not saying that everything in Judaism is correct and perfect. I am saying that Judaism was the selected method of worship practiced by our God and Savior, Jesus.

10. I am not saying you are going to hell because you practice pagan rituals. I am not God and therefore I can’t make such a judgement. Face it - we've all been fooled by Satan as he has manipulated our system of faith of the last 2 millennia. And yes – contrary to popular belief, 2 billion Christians can be wrong and they are wrong on many many things.
I sure enjoy your zeal!! It is so true that Christianity has its fair share of odd doctrine. Like the nailed to the cross doctrine that states that the law is nailed to the cross. As I understand this doctrine, no longer do we have any sin because we no longer have law or anyway to dilefine sin. The problem with this doctrine is that so many people are still in bondge to sin. One example is looks how many Christians struggle with inappropriate content addictions on this site alone.

Another interesting doctrine is the pick and choose a law theology (buffet theology). The premise of this doctrine is first we devide the law into spacific categories such as moral and cerimonial (note scripture does not exactly devide the law up). So I guess we lean on our own understanding and pick and choose which laws are cerimonial and which are moral. I have been told Sabbath is definitely not moral, we are not to place it in that box.
Thier are others out there but these are the most prevelant ones I have encountered.
I wish you the best on your studies, you are on the right track. If it's not the Word of God we must use disernment :) thanks for your post!!
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus was a Jew right? Are we not commanded to walk as He walked? 1 John 2:6

So I should convert to Judaism in order to be a Christian?

If your answer is anything other than no, then I suspect you really need to crack open a Bible asap.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Like the nailed to the cross doctrine that states that the law is nailed to the cross. As I understand this doctrine, no longer do we have any sin because we no longer have law or anyway to dilefine sin.

That's certain a strange doctrine, it's also one that I don't know any major Christian denomination teaches. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc would all consider such a teaching as completely bonkers. Of course we still have sin, we're sinners; and of course we are condemned in our sin by the Law; here's the difference however: We don't consider ourselves righteous before God on account of our obedience to either the Torah or God's moral law; we are righteous because of Jesus Christ, by the mercy of God.

Another interesting doctrine is the pick and choose a law theology (buffet theology). The premise of this doctrine is first we devide the law into spacific categories such as moral and cerimonial (note scripture does not exactly devide the law up). So I guess we lean on our own understanding and pick and choose which laws are cerimonial and which are moral. I have been told Sabbath is definitely not moral, we are not to place it in that box

You're right, that is a completely wrong way of looking at the Torah. Scripture never divides the Torah into those categories: there is only Torah. And here's the thing: the Torah was only given to the Jews at Sinai. Torah doesn't apply to anyone who is not a circumcised child of Jacob, either by descent or conversion. And yet God still held the nations accountable for their actions, so clearly Torah isn't the only form in which God's commandments are expressed. Torah did not exist until hundreds of years after Abraham, and yet for the wickedness of Sodom God destroyed the city. So clearly there are universal expectations for man, not just what is revealed in Torah.

It is neither by Torah or works of the flesh that we are justified; we are justified freely by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, who for us sinners became flesh, dwelt among us, suffered under Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried, rose again, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, in glory, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead, and of His reign there shall be no end. Life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SolomonVII

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Before putting this out to an open forum like this, I gave it to my brother to ask his thoughts as he is a bit more accustomed to listening to my crazy thoughts. He enthusiastically said post it! He also told me to offer you a few more verses regarding practicing our own traditions to give you more to go on.

Here's the thought -

Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

Can you please offer examples that do not fit this statement?

Deuteronomy 12:20-32 makes it clear that we're not to use pagan practices to worship God. Throughout history, we as a faith group, have removed the pagan gods from certain practices and plugged in the One True God and declared the practice “good” or even “holy”. Other verses that would indicate we shouldn’t do this – Mat 15:3; Col 2:8; Jer 10:1-5; Heb 10:26. So it would seem that anything non-Hebraic in terms of practicing our faith (there’s A LOT) is therefore evil.

Guidelines and important notes -

1. Please don't take this as an attack on your faith. I am simply trying to grow my own understanding of the Word and using your help to get me outside of my own "box" of thoughts. This is an exercise in growth and faith building for me...I hope it is for you as well.

2. Please don't get angry and rude, but please do reply with a well thought out rebuttal and explanation as to why my theory is actually inaccurate.

3. Please thoroughly research the practice you're highlighting as non-pagan and non-Hebraic to be sure it's accurately represented, because I assure you, I will.

4. This question is asked with the assumption that you acknowledge that Jesus is Jewish and therefore practiced Judaism in the fullest and an utterly obedient fashion. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and "belongs to Judaism" just as must as He "belongs to Christianity."

5. This is said with the assumption that the only source of absolute truth currently available to us is the Bible in the form generally accepted throughout greater Christianity.

6. While the Holy Spirit is a source of absolute truth, it is understood that He will never, under any circumstance, instruct you or anyone else to practice a walk of faith in contradictory manner against the written Word of God - the Bible.

7. It is understood that Jesus did not excuse you or anyone else from obedience. He did pay the price (death) for your inability to practice inerrant obedience.

8. All Biblical references used to refute my theory should be verified by 2-3 different Bible translations as some translations are written with a doctrinal leaning that often skew the true message of the Word.

9. I am not saying that everything in Judaism is correct and perfect. I am saying that Judaism was the selected method of worship practiced by our God and Savior, Jesus.

10. I am not saying you are going to hell because you practice pagan rituals. I am not God and therefore I can’t make such a judgement. Face it - we've all been fooled by Satan as he has manipulated our system of faith of the last 2 millennia. And yes – contrary to popular belief, 2 billion Christians can be wrong and they are wrong on many many things.
I would be in basic agreement with this. The axiom is that the NT reveals what the OT conceals. Jesus himself says that he does not come to change the law, but to fulfill it.
Dissident Catholic theologian states that Judaism and Christianity, properly understood, are one and the same religion.

It is tribalism that seeks out differences where none exist in the essentials of the faith.
 
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Aaron Rich

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Wow! This has been a fascinating learning opportunity!

As you may have noticed, I stepped back and let the conversation take it's course. Both because I wanted to allow people to express their thoughts and because I didn't have another day off.

I know some of you took offense to the topic, but that truly wasn't the purpose of my post. This was purely a learning opportunity and a way to challenge my own thoughts to help me grow. I hope it did the same to you. Don't ever stop seeking the truth as you may not have it all yet.

I disagree with many of the things you all have said and obviously you disagree with much of what I've said. It's nothing to get angry about, it's all for growth in our collective faith. The full truth will not be revealed until His return.

I want you all to know that your comments have been a tremendous blessing for me regardless of whether or not I agree. This has certainly become an active topic! I didn't expect it to become a featured one! So thank you for that.

I appreciate the growth opportunity you have offered me and your comments have given me a treasure trove of things to ponder and study - my two favorite pastimes!

Blessings and peace to you all! I plan to step off and pursue my studies further. I will keep checking back to see other comments thought!
 
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1John2:4

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So I should convert to Judaism in order to be a Christian?

If your answer is anything other than no, then I suspect you really need to crack open a Bible asap.

-CryptoLutheran
So in order to walk as my Messiah walked I must first convert to rabbinical Judism? Hmmm think it may be you that may want to blow the dust off the good book and take a look :)
 
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1John2:4

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That's certain a strange doctrine, it's also one that I don't know any major Christian denomination teaches. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc would all consider such a teaching as completely bonkers. Of course we still have sin, we're sinners; and of course we are condemned in our sin by the Law; here's the difference however: We don't consider ourselves righteous before God on account of our obedience to either the Torah or God's moral law; we are righteous because of Jesus Christ, by the mercy of God.



You're right, that is a completely wrong way of looking at the Torah. Scripture never divides the Torah into those categories: there is only Torah. And here's the thing: the Torah was only given to the Jews at Sinai. Torah doesn't apply to anyone who is not a circumcised child of Jacob, either by descent or conversion. And yet God still held the nations accountable for their actions, so clearly Torah isn't the only form in which God's commandments are expressed. Torah did not exist until hundreds of years after Abraham, and yet for the wickedness of Sodom God destroyed the city. So clearly there are universal expectations for man, not just what is revealed in Torah.

It is neither by Torah or works of the flesh that we are justified; we are justified freely by the grace of God in Jesus Christ, who for us sinners became flesh, dwelt among us, suffered under Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried, rose again, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, in glory, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead, and of His reign there shall be no end. Life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran
For using so much sarcasm in your own posts I find it funny that you can not identify it in mine :) those are doctrines I have heard from churches I have attended and on this forum. I belive the Torah is relevant today just as the OP does.
 
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