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LDS D&C 130:22 --> Jesus can't indwell us!

Discussion in 'Controversial Theology (Christians only)' started by drstevej, Aug 15, 2013.

  1. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    D&C 130:22
    The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

    • The Holy Spirit is not Flesh and Bones or He COULD NOT INDWELL US.
    • Jesus, the Son, is flesh and bones...
    • Therefore... (the conclusion must be)...Jesus can not indwell us,


    =============

    Yet the BIBLE
    says Christ indwells the believer.

    Galatians 2:20
    "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the Life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me."

    Ephesians 3:14-17
    "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from Whom the whole Family in Heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...".

    Colossians 1:27
    "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

    Colossians 3:9-11
    "Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the Image of Him Who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."


    ========

    D&C contradicts the Bible on the indwelling of Christ!
     
  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    I was looking for a Canonized Bible verse in which Jesus speaks describing the Father (physical or spiritual) to at least counter Smith's description. I couldn't find one from Christ in Canon.

    In the non Canonized scriptures, Jesus goes to great lengths, especially in Secret John. Whether one accepts it or not is up to them. I find it to be more in line as truth for me.

    "He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility."

    And

    "He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him."

    "He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan."
     
  3. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    Looks like someone pulled the fire alarm lever without just cause. Christ dwells in us all via His light. (John 1:9; D&C 84:45-46)
     
  4. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    So is Christ flesh and bone or light?

    word of the Lord = truth = light = Spirit = Spirit of Jesus Christ

    Seems like this is a reference to the Holy Spirit, no flesh and bones Jesus

    Jesus came in flesh and bones. So are his flesh and bones in every man.

    It is the logic lever that is askew.
     
  5. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    Christ is spirit/light/truth, housed in flesh and bone. I have provided supporting references for all these points in this thread.
    The scripture is self-explanatory, and speaks of no one other than Christ.

    Did you read the supporting references? If so, did you not take note of the part that says "the Spirit [Jesus Christ] giveth light to every man..."? It does not say "Jesus' flesh and bones give light to every man..."
    I believe what is askew here is your interpretation of the materials provided.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  6. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    So Jesus is divided:
    • flesh and bone
    • light

    I believe what is askew here is your interpretation.
     
  7. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    No, sir. In the same section (D&C 93), it is revealed that flesh and spirit are not "divided" or "at odds," but that when they are inseparably connected, one may possess a fulness of joy. (vs. 33-35)


    The soundness of my interpretations are self-evident to anyone who actually reads the material I reference. It takes real effort to misunderstand the scriptures I've cited.
     
  8. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    Word for the Day: Theophany
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann I left Mormonism for Christ

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    Mormonism rejects John 14:23.


    John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.
    Doctrine and Covenants 130:3

    The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, which allows Him to dwell in our hearts and communicate directly with our spirits.
    Gerald N. Lund, Opening Our Hearts to the Spirit, Ensign, May 2008

    Elder David A. Bednar noted the use of the word unto: “Please notice how the power of the Spirit carries the message unto but not necessarily into the heart. … Ultimately, … the content of a message and the witness of the Holy Ghost penetrate into the heart only if a receiver allows them to enter.” 12

    Why just unto the heart? Individual agency is so sacred that Heavenly Father will never force the human heart, even with all His infinite power.
    Gerald N. Lund, Opening Our Hearts to the Spirit, Ensign, May 2008


    Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.
    Doctrine and Covenants 8:2

    "This man here, another one over there, and a man over in England, are confirmed members of the Church. The question arises, ‘How can the Holy Ghost be with them all at the same time?’ He does not have to be, but the power of the Holy Ghost is such that it can be manifest in every place at the same moment of time…. Thus when it becomes necessary to speak to us, he is able to do so by acting through the other Spirit, that is, through the Light of Christ."
    Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38, 40

    So the LDS Holy Ghost could actually have a body of flesh and bones because he isn't really going to dwell in all those hearts. That being the case, what is the objection to the Father and Son dwelling in someone's heart?
     
  10. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    Not true
     
  11. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    You may attempt to prove it untrue through clear exposition, as I have proven it true through clear exposition. Otherwise, your retort is just your opinion.
     
  12. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    This is your opinion stated as fact. I do not presume your infallibility.
     
  13. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    I don't have to be infallible to accurately extract the meaning from a verse of scripture. The meaning of some scriptures is more difficult to discern than others; this is true. But the ones I've cited are clear, and do not require that one be God in order to discern their immediate meaning.

    Again, any disagreement you may have with the conclusions I've drawn, you are free to contest—by analysis and explanation of the same scriptural verses.
     
  14. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    Flesh and Bone are in a great Urim and Thummim.

    Okie doke.
     
  15. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Guest

    God's house seems to be a great Urim and Thummin. The question I have is whether or not the great Urim and Thummin is the same as the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.
     
  16. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

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    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
  17. twob4me

    twob4me Congregational Category Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    ~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    This thread has gone through a clean up and is being reopened. Please stay on topic and please do not discuss staff actions. There were also some Flaming going on in the thread and that is also not allowed. Before posting again take a moment to review the Board Rules

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  18. southcountry

    southcountry Newbie

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    Smith was right, in a way. Although I wouldnt call it a urim and thummim, all material does dwell in the sea of glass before Gods throne.

    While I find it interesting that Joseph may have realized this, Im more troubled that he didnt go on to explain what happens to this great "urim and thummim". Did he realize that it was to turn into the lake of fire and be removed?