lcms and wels diffs?

[QuiltAngel]

why wouldn't it be?

We wouldn't be WELS if we didn't think WELS was right, would we?

And we wouldn't be LCMS if we didn't think the LCMS was right would we?

We are just wondering why the LCMS would have to do all the compromising in any fellowship discussions as Twin.Spin is saying. We are hearing him say WELS way or no way. Well, we can say the same thing too.

As DaRev says, no church is perfect, we all tend to think that each of ours is closer to perfect.

Why are we having this discussion again? The OP has not been on for a while either. I am wondering if we answered their question or if we have just confused the issue more.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

And we wouldn't be LCMS if we didn't think the LCMS was right would we?

We are just wondering why the LCMS would have to do all the compromising in any fellowship discussions as Twin.Spin is saying. We are hearing him say WELS way or no way. Well, we can say the same thing too.

At issue is the point that we separated from you guys first. When we strayed initially, the LCMS was there to correct us and put us back on the right path. When we felt that the LCMS strayed, we tried to do the same, but when our efforts failed, we split. We left, not the other way around. That makes a difference.

As DaRev says, no church is perfect, we all tend to think that each of ours is closer to perfect.

While the members of a church may not be perfect, I will disagree and say that I believe the teachings of a church, if held to scriptures, ARE perfect.

Where exactly in our teachings are we going against God's word?

Why are we having this discussion again? The OP has not been on for a while either. I am wondering if we answered their question or if we have just confused the issue more.

If no one ever discusses it, do you think it will ever get fixed?

We can't just ignore the differences in our synods. We can certainly pray for each other, which I know we do, but at the same time, we shouldn't forget what has separated us to begin with.


I'll also add that it is our synod's stance that unless the LCMS is willing to compromise there will be no discussions of fellowship. So what twin.spin and I are advocating is actually in-line with our synod, which is why I'm surprised that you would be surprised by it.

 

[twin.spin]

Do you have a link to this?

No unfortunately. I am going to follow up with a question to the WELS web site or may ask a friend here who just retired from as an editor from NPH about any info about it.

 

[Studeclunker]

Well Beckie, I'm surprised that you're surprised at his being surprised which surprises me as well. Of course, I'm also completely confused at this point.

LOL, just kiidding!

Actually, most people think their denomination is just about perfect. Both the WELS and the LCMS stick pretty close to scripture in their official basic tennets, doctrine, and theology. The problem is when a Synod departs from that which is the official stance and wanders around aimlessly, not to mention the member congregations. WELS seems to run a pretty tight ship in that area. LCMS does not. That doesn't mean that LCMS is an inferior organization, it just means they have a serious problem at present. One which they are finally addressing. Time will tell if LCMS will actually do a thorough job this time... or not.

Therein lies a main difference between the two organizations. One is a bit... well... how do I put this? Inflexible, is the best I can come up with at the moment. WELS is not very user-friendly (in my limited experience) to new members. LCMS on the other hand, has gone off the deep end. So, once things swing back to an even keel, perhaps... perhaps... One can hope for a return to that happy middle ground.

 

[QuiltAngel]

This is how far off of the topic of the OP.

I am just as surprised by it as you are. Do WELS thinking we are going go change to please them? This is the impression that I am getting from Twin Spin.

This is why I say that there is going to be no change in the status quo as long as neither side is willing go discuss or compromise. It is a moot discussion I think.

 

[twin.spin]

It not like this is a "WELS" is better issue. The Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference holds this to be the acurrate application of God Word. The Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference members are made up of the following church bodies and their locations:

Bulgarian Lutheran Church (Bulgaria)
Christ the King Lutheran (Nigeria)
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church (Mexico)
Confessional Lutheran Church (Latvia)
Czech Evangelical Lutheran Church (Czech Republic)
Evangelical Lutheran Church - "Concord" (Russia)
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Finland)
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Puerto Rico)
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Peru)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States)
Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Australia (Australia)
Geraja Lutheran (Indonesia)
The Lutheran Church of Cameroon (Cameroon)
Lutheran Church of Central Africa (Malawi Conference)
Lutheran Church of Central Africa (Zambia Conference)
Lutheran Church of Portugal (Associate member) -- [Portugal]
Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden, Norway)
Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan)
Ukrainian Lutheran Church (Ukraine)
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States)

 

[twin.spin]

This is how far off of the topic of the OP.

I am just as surprised by it as you are. Do WELS thinking we are going go change to please them? This is the impression that I am getting from Twin Spin.

This is why I say that there is going to be no change in the status quo as long as neither side is willing go discuss or compromise. It is a moot discussion I think.

As far as the differences between LCMS and WELS, which the main issue is fellowship, it was said as much in your last paragraph. After LCMS submitted their "Theology of Fellowship" to the Joint Union Committees in response to the 2 year Joint meetings (57-59) .... "as long as neither side is willing to discuss or compromise, it is a moot discussion." that until further understandings change, that it's best to agree to disagree.

 

[DaRev]

While the members of a church may not be perfect, I will disagree and say that I believe the teachings of a church, if held to scriptures, ARE perfect.

If one looks at the "official" positions of the LCMS, they will see that they are indeed spot on with the Scriptures and the Confessions. The main issue within the synod is practical. Until the synod can figure out how to consistently apply the official teachings synod-wide, it will continue to be the main problem.

Where exactly in our teachings are we going against God's word?

The Scriptures teach that the office of the public ministry is the one divinely established office in the Church. Other offices and positions that exist within the congregation are man made. The WELS fails to see this distinction, thus their position concerning the role of women in the Church. The LCMS has this teaching "officially" correct. But for us again it is a matter of consistent application.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

If one looks at the "official" positions of the LCMS, they will see that they are indeed spot on with the Scriptures and the Confessions. The main issue within the synod is practical. Until the synod can figure out how to consistently apply the official teachings synod-wide, it will continue to be the main problem.

The Scriptures teach that the office of the public ministry is the one divinely established office in the Church. Other offices and positions that exist within the congregation are man made. The WELS fails to see this distinction, thus their position concerning the role of women in the Church. The LCMS has this teaching "officially" correct. But for us again it is a matter of consistent application.

Whether the positions are man made or not, women aren't supposed to be in authority over men in the church. How you think you have the position officially correct is beyond me. As I recall, you allow women to be members on the church council. The church council has authority over the church. Sometimes church councils are also in charge of church discipline...do the women on these councils just excuse themselves from that?

 

[ContraMundum]

Well Beckie, I'm surprised that you're surprised at his being surprised which surprises me as well. Of course, I'm also completely confused at this point.

After reading that, I'm not surprised.

 

[Zecryphon]

This is how far off of the topic of the OP.

I am just as surprised by it as you are. Do WELS thinking we are going go change to please them? This is the impression that I am getting from Twin Spin.

This is why I say that there is going to be no change in the status quo as long as neither side is willing go discuss or compromise. It is a moot discussion I think.

You shouldn't change to please us (WELS), and I personally don't want the LCMS to change just to please the WELS. You should change, if you guys change at all or even want to change at all, to be in line with scripture. This attitude that the LCMS is displaying of "we're not changing for anyone," is a little off-putting to say the least.

WELS changed when you guys pointed out our errors, but when we try and point out your errors, whatever they may be, you seem to be folding your arms, stamping your feet and saying "NO!" Seems to me the LCMS is quick to point out the splinter in the eye of the WELS but not quick to address the log that is lodged in their own eye. As long as this is the case, there will be no change in the fellowship status between the two synods and no one should be surprised at that.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well Beckie, I'm surprised that you're surprised at his being surprised which surprises me as well. Of course, I'm also completely confused at this point.

LOL, just kiidding!

Actually, most people think their denomination is just about perfect. Both the WELS and the LCMS stick pretty close to scripture in their official basic tennets, doctrine, and theology. The problem is when a Synod departs from that which is the official stance and wanders around aimlessly, not to mention the member congregations. WELS seems to run a pretty tight ship in that area. LCMS does not. That doesn't mean that LCMS is an inferior organization, it just means they have a serious problem at present. One which they are finally addressing. Time will tell if LCMS will actually do a thorough job this time... or not.

I know of a good number of WELS pastors who rejoiced when K was voted out. The idea was that hopefully, this will open the door a bit more for the future.

We always continue to pray for LCMS, just as we hope they pray for us when we face struggles.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it), we are dealing with mainly financial issues.

Therein lies a main difference between the two organizations. One is a bit... well... how do I put this? Inflexible, is the best I can come up with at the moment. WELS is not very user-friendly (in my limited experience) to new members. LCMS on the other hand, has gone off the deep end. So, once things swing back to an even keel, perhaps... perhaps... One can hope for a return to that happy middle ground.

WELS churches really need to work on dealing with visitors and prospective members. Striking a healthy balance is rather difficult it seems. Some churches go far overboard and practically drown the visitor, while others take a less hands-on approach and then the person feels unwelcome.

We've had some blessings from God lately...our visitors are frequent flyers...they're returning at least every other week if not more, and one couple is currently taking bible information classes. Hubby has guests sign the register, he calls or visits and takes his cues from them.

It is true that the WELS is somewhat inflexible in what she believes. It's too bad her members aren't always the same way. It's rather hard to defend WELS teachings if some of the WELS people don't actually follow them.

 

[alexnbethmom]

do women in the WELS synod vote in public elections? do men in the WELS synod ALLOW their women to vote in public elections? i have had this conversation with my pastor (and a pastor of a WELS church, as well as WELS members) on many occasions....

if i am allowed to vote for the president of the united states, then i am allowed to vote for the president of the synod - simple as that.

being on church council does not go over the pastor's head - therefore, is not in a position over a man. there are women in charge of certain boards at my church, and they do not go over the pastor's head, period. they can not be elders, they cannot be a pastor, period.

are WELS women allowed to be in a managerial position in the workplace? how is that any different?

i'm sorry - but this arguing and bickering about who is right and who is wrong is making me sick to my stomach, literally.

 

[Zecryphon]

I know of a good number of WELS pastors who rejoiced when K was voted out. The idea was that hopefully, this will open the door a bit more for the future.

We always continue to pray for LCMS, just as we hope they pray for us when we face struggles.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it), we are dealing with mainly financial issues.



WELS churches really need to work on dealing with visitors and prospective members. Striking a healthy balance is rather difficult it seems. Some churches go far overboard and practically drown the visitor, while others take a less hands-on approach and then the person feels unwelcome.

We've had some blessings from God lately...our visitors are frequent flyers...they're returning at least every other week if not more, and one couple is currently taking bible information classes. Hubby has guests sign the register, he calls or visits and takes his cues from them.

It is true that the WELS is somewhat inflexible in what she believes. It's too bad her members aren't always the same way. It's rather hard to defend WELS teachings if some of the WELS people don't actually follow them.

Maybe my WELS church is the exception rather than the rule. When I went there I felt very welcomed, the people were friendly but it wasn't as over-the-top or in your face as it was in my former ND church which was so large I felt like one person among tens-of-thousands and realized that I didn't matter to the church as a whole. I could leave and no one would notice. Which I did and no one did notice as I'm still on their mailing lists! LOL But my Ev. Free church was very in your face, get you plugged into a small group, meet with the minister, get involved with the youth groups, etc. and just sign you up for every activity under the sun before you even have decided if you want to go to that church much less become a member.

I've had to ask about various opportunities or Bible studies within the church and about the new membership classes. These weren't shoved at me like they were the Ev. Free church. I felt very comfortable, very welcome, but not pressured into doing anything that I didn't want to do anyway, in my current WELS church.

 

[Zecryphon]

do women in the WELS synod vote in public elections? do men in the WELS synod ALLOW their women to vote in public elections? i have had this conversation with my pastor (and a pastor of a WELS church, as well as WELS members) on many occasions....

if i am allowed to vote for the president of the united states, then i am allowed to vote for the president of the synod - simple as that.

being on church council does not go over the pastor's head - therefore, is not in a position over a man. there are women in charge of certain boards at my church, and they do not go over the pastor's head, period. they can not be elders, they cannot be a pastor, period.

are WELS women allowed to be in a managerial position in the workplace? how is that any different?

i'm sorry - but this arguing and bickering about who is right and who is wrong is making me sick to my stomach, literally.

It's not as simple as that. The WELS takes the position that a woman shall not exercise any authority over a man in the church. We say nothing about secular expressions of authority. So while you are as an American citizen allowed and encouraged to vote for the President of the United States, in a WELS church you are not allowed to hold any office in the church where you would have authority over a man and that extends to voting in the church at the local level.

P.S. if we don't discuss who is right and who is wrong amongst ourselves, or arguing as you call it, can we do it about other denominations or should we just stop discussing everything, opt for this forum to be pure fellowship, where we just pat each other on the back about how good we are as little Christians? Cuz if that happens, I'm outta here. I hate fellowship forums and threads.

 

[seajoy]

It's not as simple as that. The WELS takes the position that a woman shall not exercise any authority over a man in the church. We say nothing about secular expressions of authority. So while you are as an American citizen allowed and encouraged to vote for the President of the United States, in a WELS church you are not allowed to hold any office in the church where you would have authority over a man and that extends to voting in the church at the local level.

P.S. if we don't discuss who is right and who is wrong amongst ourselves, or arguing as you call it, can we do it about other denominations or should we just stop discussing everything, opt for this forum to be pure fellowship, where we just pat each other on the back about how good we are as little Christians? Cuz if that happens, I'm outta here. I hate fellowship forums and threads.

I knew my thread would annoy people. Anyway, I think there can be both fellowship and discussion..... not hurting just to hurt, though.

My WELS church here in MI, was extremely friendly went we visited (I complimented the pastor on it), but not pushy in joining every group. We live quite far from our church, so it would be very difficult to belong to eveything.

I agree, when it says women are to keep silence in the church - it says just that. It has nothing to do with secular offices or managerial positions.

 

[seajoy]

It is true that the WELS is somewhat inflexible in what she believes. It's too bad her members aren't always the same way. It's rather hard to defend WELS teachings if some of the WELS people don't actually follow them.

I'm not sure what to say to this statement, but I did pray with my 90yr old LCMS grandma. It would have been very disrepectful not to, as she and I both trust in Jesus as our Savior, and agreed on the Sacraments. She is now in heaven - but to dis her that way here on earth, I just don't get it. It's my only trouble with the WELS - I agree on everything else - women not voting, close Communion, boy scouts etc....and other stuff that I can't think of right now. You just may look at this as a blatent disobedience to WELS teachings, but it is something that's stuck in my heart. My grandma taught me much of what I know of Jesus, when my parents were off on their Baptist TV preacher stuff.....while still attending a Lutheran church. (I kid you not). My parents are now Baptist.
Also, I was baptized in an LCMS church. I became WELS in 7th grade. Went back to the LCMS in my early 20's, and have now been WELS for many years, and am staying here. I'm just too close to too many LCMS conservatives, though, to try and make them feel we aren't brothers and sisters in Christ. My conscience won't let me.

 

[Zecryphon]

I knew my thread would annoy people. Anyway, I think there can be both fellowship and discussion..... not hurting just to hurt, though.

My WELS church here in MI, was extremely friendly went we visited (I complimented the pastor on it), but not pushy in joining every group. We live quite far from our church, so it would be very difficult to belong to eveything.

I agree, when it says women are to keep silence in the church - it says just that. It has nothing to do with secular offices or managerial positions.

Angie, your thread is not annoying me. What does annoy me is this attitude that if we air our differences with each other, that we suddenly "hate" each other, are "fighting" and not having enough fellowship with each other. So according to some, the solution is to shut down all debate/discussion of differences topics and just have pure fellowship. We have threads for fellowship, if fellowship is what you're seeking to have right now, because you've grown tired of the discussion and debate threads, go to the Adiaphora Alehouse or Think I'll Sit Down Here, threads and have your fellowship.

But I think, and this is just my personal opinion, it's a little extreme to demand the whole forum or sub-forum do that because one or two people have grown tired of the "bickering" or "fighting." Debate threads generate more hits than fellowship threads and that's been my experience on every forum I've ever been a part of. So if this forum does go that way, people will not post here and will go to sites where they can freely discuss and debate without being made to feel like they're killing the forum for wanting to learn more and dig deeper than "I asked God what I should have for lunch and when I got the answer it was just so awesome and so perfect, I just knew it had to be from God. He knows my heart and me so well."

Just like with anything else on a forum, there's only so much of any type of discussion a person can take. So if you're tired of debate and deeper discussion, go to a fellowship thread for a while and rest and recharge. If you want more than high-5ing each other and patting each other on the back, go to a debate/discussion thread. The forum should cater to the needs and wants of all people and shouldn't be forced to go in just one direction. Let the free market work.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Let's see, here is the first post on this thread:

Don't want to start a flame war, but just want to know, what the main diffs are between WELS and LCMS. Thanks.

edit: I guess I would like a little more info than what I'm reading here

www dot lcms dog org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2149

Well, if this thread hasn't turned into a flame war yet, it is sure headed that way.

Zec, that comes across as rather harsh and hurtful.

 

[seajoy]

Ok....points taken., Zec. And thanks for your honesty.