LAKE OF FIRE (eternal pain)

[Der Alte]

...

 

[Der Alte]

Josephus was referred to re the use of a word to prove many ECT advocates wrong in their understanding of it in Mark 9.
===
Der Alter replied: Which you failed to do!
When the idea of endlessness is injected into "unquenchable" just because many ECTers think the word looks like it's saying that, then the person making that claim is wrong. Now if you have some proof that in Mark 9 it must refer to endlessness, based on other considerations, then that is another matter completely.

I didn't inject anything into Jopsephus I quoted from his War of the Jews verbatim. Had you bothered to actually read my post you would know that.

And as for your Josephus' quote, you didn't comment on what it has to do with the word "unquenchable", also translated as 'not quenched', 'unextinguished' etc.

You rarely comment on what your quotes or links are supposed to show, just "Read this.""Read that.""Go to this link." etc. Here is the pertinent part of my quote from Josephus, highlighted just as it was in the previous post.

Josephus Wars of the Jews Book 2, chapter VIII, vs. 14
But then as to the two other orders at first mentioned, the Pharisees are those who are esteemed most skilful in the exact explication of their laws, and introduce the first sect. These ascribe all to fate [or providence], and to God, and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men; although fate does co-operate in every action. They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment. ​

Der Alter replied: Had you bothered to actually read my post Josephus stated what it had to do with "not quenched", "unextinguished." And no amount of tirades about "biased translations" can refute it.
======

It doesn't even mention "unquenchable". Also, it's just an English translation, not the original, inspite of any excathedra proclamations to the contrary re its perfection, whether papal Protestant or other. BTW, what are the original words rendered "eternal punishment". Do you have any idea?

Please do not lecture me about "just an English translation not the original" when you have never quoted the original Greek or a Greek lexicon. And even if you did post the Greek you very likely cannot read it. My previous quote from Josphus was from the same work you referred to, War of the Jews. Here is a quote from Josephus'
"Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades"

Just is thy judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance.
http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-5.htm​

I see the quote also makes reference to "punishments and rewards in Hades". In the book of Revelation the dead get out of Hades. Also you recently quoted a Jewish source that said Hades/Sheol would be destroyed, in which case it is not a place of "eternal punishment", to use the words from your above quote.

Please refrain from quoting 2-3 words from my posts and demanding an answer. Quote what I say in-context, then I will address it. If you have questions about any of my previous posts, go to that post, quote it by using the quote function at the lower right of each post and I will address your questions. That is the correct way to have a discussion.

it seems strange to quote something & make bold claims about it and then refuse to explain your point in quoting it, what it has to do with the topic, or how it supports your bold claim. I wonder if anyone else has any idea what your point is.

More complaints about my posts. When all you do is copy/paste from tentmaker or some other website or post link and tell me to read. When you start explaining your quotes then you might have some grounds to demand that of me.

 

[ClementofA]

I didn't inject anything into Jopsephus I quoted from his War of the Jews verbatim. Had you bothered to actually read my post you would know that.

You completely missed the point. My comment was about Mark 9 & "unquenchable", not your Josephus quote which did not even use the word.

 

[Der Alte]

You completely missed the point. My comment was about Mark 9 & "unquenchable", not your Josephus quote which did not even use the word.

You missed my post immediately above yours where Josephus used "unquenchable fire" and said it was "without end." Unlike you I quoted from the primary source, the writings of Josephus, and provided a link to that source.

"Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades"
Just is thy judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance.

http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-5.htm​

 

[ClementofA]

You missed my post immediately above yours where Josephus used "unquenchable fire" and said it was "without end." Unlike you I quoted from the primary source, the writings of Josephus, and provided a link to that source.

"Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades"
Just is thy judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance.

http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-5.htm​

I saw that while reading your post, though it was not pertinent to my point.

I don't consider a single English translation the primary source but merely an opinion of it. With Bible versions i can compare dozens of translations & easily find the words used in the original.

Extremely significant differences between Josephus' comments in your quote & the passages of Scriptures with the word "unquenchable" are that the latter never once use qualifiers such as "never-ceasing", "without end", etc, that Josephus does.

Was it necessary for Josephus to use such qualifiers because there were those, Scripture believing Jews and/or Christians, who held the view that passages where "unquenchable" occurs in Scripture do not support ECT?

It would be interesting to see what the original language words are for "without end". "never-ceasing", "eternal punishment", "destroying" etc, & if they are ever used in the Scriptures &, if so, in what context.

 

[mmksparbud]

I saw that while reading your post, though it was not pertinent to my point.

I don't consider a single English translation the primary source but merely an opinion of it. With Bible versions i can compare dozens of translations & easily find the words used in the original.

Extremely significant differences between Josephus' comments in your quote & the passages of Scriptures with the word "unquenchable" are that the latter never once use qualifiers such as "never-ceasing", "without end", etc, that Josephus does.

It would be interesting to see what the original language words are for "without end". "never-ceasing", "eternal punishment", "destroying" etc, & if they are ever used in the Scriptures &, if so, in what context.

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Is the fire still burning???

 

[ClementofA]

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Is the fire still burning???

Here is one opinion:

"7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56) ."

Jude CLV
5 Now I am intending to remind you, you who once are aware of all, that the Lord, when saving the people out of the land of Egypt, secondly destroys those who believe not." 6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day." 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

 

[mmksparbud]

The point is--eternal fire is not burning eternally--it is, however, eternal destruction.

 

[Der Alte]

I saw that while reading your post, though it was not pertinent to my point.
I don't consider a single English translation the primary source but merely an opinion of it. With Bible versions i can compare dozens of translations & easily find the words used in the original.
Extremely significant differences between Josephus' comments in your quote & the passages of Scriptures with the word "unquenchable" are that the latter never once use qualifiers such as "never-ceasing", "without end", etc, that Josephus does.
Was it necessary for Josephus to use such qualifiers because there were those, Scripture believing Jews and/or Christians, who held the view that passages where "unquenchable" occurs in Scripture do not support ECT?
It would be interesting to see what the original language words are for "without end". "never-ceasing", "eternal punishment", "destroying" etc, & if they are ever used in the Scriptures &, if so, in what context.

Got a big laugh about this. You didn't say anything about "original language" or "qualifiers" when you quoted "Josephus unquenchable fire temple" in your post #92. When something appears to support you false assumptions/presuppositions you accept it without question but when I quote the same source and it contradicts your doctrine then you start objecting. Lot of hypocrisy going on here.
As for "the original language words are for "without end". "never-ceasing", "eternal punishment", "destroying" etc, & if they are ever used in the Scriptures &, if so, in what context." I did this before and you ignored it. I'll be waiting for you to prove that the Jews did not know how to correctly translate their Hebrew scriptures. Maybe I'll see some quotes from tentmaker.

Exodus 15:18 The LORD [YHWH] shall reign for ever and ever.

Exo 15:18 κύριος βασιλεύων τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι. [ton aiona kai eti]

Exo 15:18 [l'olam w'ed] יהוה ימלך לעלם ועד׃

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.

Exo 3:15 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πάλιν πρὸς Μωυσῆν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῶν πατέρων ὑμῶν, θεὸς Αβρααμ καὶ θεὸς Ισαακ καὶ θεὸς Ιακωβ, ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς· τοῦτό μού ἐστιν ὄνομα αἰώνιον [aionion] καὶ μνημόσυνον γενεῶν γενεαῖς.

Exo 3:15 ויאמר עוד אלהים אל־משׁה כה־תאמר אל־בני ישׂראל יהוה אלהי אבתיכם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב שׁלחני אליכם זה־שׁמי לעלם וזה זכרי לדר דר׃
* לעלם= l'olam

​

 

[Der Alte]

The point is--eternal fire is not burning eternally--it is, however, eternal destruction.

Do you mean that God cannot make fire burn forever?

 

[mmksparbud]

Absolutely---just that He hasn't---nor do I believe, from the bible, that He will.

 

[Der Alte]

The point is--eternal fire is not burning eternally--it is, however, eternal destruction.

The Bible does not say "eternal destruction" it does say "eternal punishment,""gehenna ... where the fire is not quenched,""furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" and "lake of fire...tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[mmksparbud]

The first lie and is still a lie:
(Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The bible also says:

(Psa 6:5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
(Psa 88:10) Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Isa 51:6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
(Eze 18:4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(Eze 18:20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him
(Eze 33:15) If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(Psa 88:11) Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

(Psa 88:12) Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
(Psa 115:17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.




(Joh 11:25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(Rom 8:13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(Ecc 9:6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
(Isa 26:14) They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL--WE ARE MORTAL

1Ti 6:15) Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
(1Ti 6:16) who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

(Rom 8:11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(2Co 4:11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Job_4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Rom_6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

ONLY THE SAVED ARE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Now, before you start on the usual the spirit is immortal thing---please state the verse that says that---

Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job_33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

The breath of life is what God breathed on us and on all His creation---including all His animals---are the animals given an immortal soul also?? Including those that were destroyed in the flood?? It is that breath of life that goes back to God who gave it.

Death, perish, is not separation from God---it is death--name the verse that states death is separation from God. And in the end-0death and hell are both destroyed:
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


It matters not what men from way back when decided death meant --what does God Himself say?--That God will take a 14 year old sinner who has stolen $5.00 and burn him forever, right next to a man that has raped, tortured and murdered 24 children---and neither of whom will ever pay as long as Cain who supposedly has been burning longer than anyone--is ridiculous! God is just and we must look to His character when things seem contradictory. The lost are not given immortality so they can burn forever--0they will be punished according to what they have done and destroyed and there will be no more sin---as long as there are sinners, there is sin---they will be destroyed.
Mat_13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat_13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat_13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mal_4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Now, before you start on the usual the spirit is immortal thing---please state the verse that says that---

I assume this is addressed to me since it immediately follows my post. I will extend you the same discourtesy and ignore all the out-of-context scriptures you posted.

It matters not what men from way back when decided death meant --

This is what God said "way back when."

הנפשׁ החטאת היא תמות בן לא־ישׂא בעון האב ואב לא ישׂא בעון הבן צדקת הצדיק עליו תהיה ורשׁעת רשׁע עליו תהיה׃
ἡ δὲ ψυχὴ ἡ ἁμαρτάνουσα ἀποθανεῖται· ὁ δὲ υἱὸς οὐ λήμψεται τὴν ἀδικίαν τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ, οὐδὲ ὁ πατὴρ λήμψεται τὴν ἀδικίαν τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ· δικαιοσύνη δικαίου ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν ἔσται, καὶ ἀνομία ἀνόμου ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν ἔσται.​

What does God Himself say here? God did not speak English. Someone who understands and reads these languages must translate what they mean. So yes, we do need to know what men said way back when. Not how people today try to reinterpret the words to make them line up with their assumptions/presuppositions.

what does God Himself say?--That God will take a 14 year old sinner who has stolen $5.00 and burn him forever, right next to a man that has raped, tortured and murdered 24 children---and neither of whom will ever pay as long as Cain who supposedly has been burning longer than anyone--is ridiculous! God is just and we must look to His character when things seem contradictory. The lost are not given immortality so they can burn forever--0they will be punished according to what they have done and destroyed and there will be no more sin---as long as there are sinners, there is sin---they will be destroyed.

Here you are substituting your likes/dislikes, sense of right and wrong, etc. for God's. Was God just when He rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, burning all the inhabitants, men, women, young, old, children, infants to death? Was God just when He commanded Israel to invade Bashan and kill all the men, women, young, old, children, infants. Deuteronomy 2:34
.....Three passages which show the wicked dead in hades and sheol moving, speaking etc. Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:21-23, Ezekiel 32:31-32, Luke 16:19-31

 

[mmksparbud]

I assume this is addressed to me since it immediately follows my post. I will extend you the same discourtesy and ignore all the out-of-context scriptures you posted.

This is what God said "way back when."

הנפשׁ החטאת היא תמות בן לא־ישׂא בעון האב ואב לא ישׂא בעון הבן צדקת הצדיק עליו תהיה ורשׁעת רשׁע עליו תהיה׃
ἡ δὲ ψυχὴ ἡ ἁμαρτάνουσα ἀποθανεῖται· ὁ δὲ υἱὸς οὐ λήμψεται τὴν ἀδικίαν τοῦ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ, οὐδὲ ὁ πατὴρ λήμψεται τὴν ἀδικίαν τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ· δικαιοσύνη δικαίου ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν ἔσται, καὶ ἀνομία ἀνόμου ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν ἔσται.​

What does God Himself say here? God did not speak English. Someone who understands and reads these languages must translate what they mean. So yes, we do need to know what men said way back when. Not how people today try to reinterpret the words to make them line up with their assumptions/presuppositions.

Here you are substituting your likes/dislikes, sense of right and wrong, etc. for God's. Was God just when He rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, burning all the inhabitants, men, women, young, old, children, infants to death? Was God just when He commanded Israel to invade Bashan and kill all the men, women, young, old, children, infants. Deuteronomy 2:34
.....Three passages which show the wicked dead in hades and sheol moving, speaking etc. Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:21-23, Ezekiel 32:31-32, Luke 16:19-31

Taken out of context??--support what you say---I can say the same thing about what verses you posted---and did and backed it up with many verses that state the truth. Hebrew and Greek are the original languages--and that is what needs to be studied--God did not speak King James English--These writings of ST. this or St. that were written by Catholics who were bent on interpreting the word of God according to their preconceived ideas. It is best to go back to the original language and try to understand what the original meaning was, not what some priest in 300 AD thought. You want to dismiss all those verses for your few that you bend to your own preconceived ideas, go right ahead. Take those verses and prove they are not what is clearly stated.
God is just in whatever He does. Yes, He wiped out villages with women and children and animals-He wiped out a whole world by flood---and? That in no way means He is judging that 14 year old boy to the same forever punishment as Hitler--everlasting torment. Those other verses say no such thing. His very character says no such thing.

 

[ClementofA]

Got a big laugh about this. You didn't say anything about "original language" or "qualifiers" when you quoted "Josephus unquenchable fire temple" in your post #92. When something appears to support you false assumptions/presuppositions you accept it without question but when I quote the same source and it contradicts your doctrine then you start objecting. Lot of hypocrisy going on here.

​

Accept it without question? Are you attempting mind reading again? In pointing out the weaknesses of your positions, don't assume for a second that i am not aware of those of my own when the same weaknesses apply.

 

[ClementofA]

As for "the original language words are for "without end". "never-ceasing", "eternal punishment", "destroying" etc, & if they are ever used in the Scriptures &, if so, in what context." I did this before and you ignored it. I'll be waiting for you to prove that the Jews did not know how to correctly translate their Hebrew scriptures.

​

All i'm seeing here is deflection onto another topic, already addressed BTW, when your position goes down in flames & you have no retort on the original subject. It's the equivalent of me posting the following now:

http://www.godsplanforall.com/universalreconciliationscriptures
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bibleproofs2.html
http://www.cogwriter.com/apocatastasis.htm
http://haroldlovelace.com/lovelacelist.php
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...mpendium-all-verses-supporting-universal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...tures-proved-me-universal-salvation-true.html
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.savioroftheworld.net/Scripture.htm

 

[Der Alte]

Taken out of context??--support what you say---I can say the same thing about what verses you posted---and did and backed it up with many verses that state the truth. Hebrew and Greek are the original languages--and that is what needs to be studied--God did not speak King James English--

If you expect me to thoroughly address your posts then start by extending me the same courtesy.

These writings of ST. this or St. that were written by Catholics who were bent on interpreting the word of God according to their preconceived ideas.

There was no Catholic church with a pope in Rome, with preconceived ideas, in charge until 1075. This is the same copout every false sect uses, "Everybody for 2000 years was wrong until my little group. We're the only ones with the real truth and blame it all on the Catholics."

It is best to go back to the original language and try to understand what the original meaning was, not what some priest in 300 AD thought.

That's exactly what I did and you evidently don't have a clue how to read the original languages.

You want to dismiss all those verses for your few that you bend to your own preconceived ideas, go right ahead. Take those verses and prove they are not what is clearly stated.

You totally ignored my post now you want to dictate to me to address everything you said. I don't think so amigo. Why don't you go through that list of verses and explain what you think they prove.

God is just in whatever He does. Yes, He wiped out villages with women and children and animals-He wiped out a whole world by flood---and? That in no way means He is judging that 14 year old boy to the same forever punishment as Hitler--everlasting torment. Those other verses say no such thing. His very character says no such thing.

You seem to be hung up on some imaginary 14 year old boy. Guess you have never read Romans 4 and 5. About the middle of each chapter. I think you should be able to figure out what I'm talking about. Why don't you discuss something real? Did God destroy innocent children and infants in Sodom and Gomorrah and in the cities He commanded Israel to attack? A simple yes or no will suffice. I don't need a long dissertation.

 

[Der Alte]

Accept it without question? Are you attempting mind reading again? In pointing out the weaknesses of your positions, don't assume for a second that i am not aware of those of my own when the same weaknesses apply.

Do not demand of me what you are unable or unwilling to do yourself.

 

[Der Alte]

All i'm seeing here is deflection onto another topic, already addressed BTW, when your position goes down in flames & you have no retort on the original subject. It's the equivalent of me posting the following now:

Only in your dreams has anything I said went down in flames. This is your usual copout when you are unable to address my posts. My post did exactly what you asked for. I showed you how Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars translated Olam in the LXX, "aionion," and the 1917 JPS English translation, "for ever and ever." And I am quite sure that Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars know more about Hebrew than anonymous people on a forum who couldn't locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it.
.....I will not read or respond to any of those rubbish websites you link to. The discussion is here, if you can't handle a direct discussion with me here perhaps this topic is over your head.