You do realize that John MacArthur is a Calvinist?
The temple prostitutes issiue is a logical fallacy, why would a translation gather prostitutes that were Homosexuals?
The Textus Receptus has not added to the Critical text ,due to being translated before the Critical text.
The Alexandrian text was the basis of translation in 2nd Century A.D.as well ,where as the Critical text was from Egyptian translation.
Your statement is illogical due to your basis of the assumption the Critical text was not corruptible.
Erasmus translated both exposing error in the Vulgate but not dismissing it's usefulness.
Dynamic equivalence is simply a paraphrase based on opinion.
Yes I do have a beef with today's translations .
They have increased over the past 30 years ,and presume the King James is old fashioned.
Most new translations are by products of Westcott and Hort who were notorious in their theology.
I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BOW OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION ,so I am done with replying.
Sir may I ask what you base your knowlage of Christ on?
The preaching of the Gospel.
You can not have but one truth it is absolute.
And...where am I getting around that?
So having many text to study a person will arrive on his ideal of God..
I'm failing to see your point.
The term Holy Bible does not allow for the cumulative efforts of different sources all in one accord.
Again, what's your point?
God is not the author of confusion, and I would be carfull not to make a mistake on assumption.
Where have I done that? Point it out to me.
I'm out of this thanks
Seriously?!? We've had some good discussions in the past. When I correct something you said, you get upset and decide to bow out?
I wish I could count the number of times I've said the KJV is somewhere between 97.8 and 99.8% correct when it comes to core Christian doctrines. I wish I could count the number of times I've said that no major "core Christian doctrine" rest on any disputed texts.
In a thread on this same subject line, somebody tasked me with the question of just how many texts/mss the KJ translators used. I found out it was only about 60-70 at best. Since 1611, there have been some 5200 more mss found. Way back in 1611, this may have been acceptable. However today,...
To say as KJV Onlyists do: "the KJV is the perfectly preserved word of God", is wrong. No matter how you slice it, it is wrong.
I side with old time Fundamentalists here. The perfect inspired word of God belonged to the original autographs of the authors themselves.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Dean,
To whom are you addressing your comments? It would be helpful if you back quoted?
Now Faith sir.
I tried to answer his questions in quote form, but it lumped it in one big quote.
I'll edit it to reflect it.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Since Erasmus could not find a manuscript which contained the entire Greek Testament, he utilized several for various parts of the New Testament. For most of the text he relied on two rather inferior manuscripts from a monastic library at Basle, one of the Gospels (see Plate XV) and one of the Acts and Epistles, both dating from about the twelfth century. Erasmus compared them with two or three others of the same books and entered occasional corrections for the printer in the margins or between the lines of the Greek script. For the Book of Revelation he had but one manuscript, dating from the twelfth century, which he had borrowed from his friend Reuchlin. Unfortunately, this manuscript lacked the final leaf, which had contained the last six verses of the book. For these verses, as well as a few other passages throughout the book where the Greek text of the Apocalypse and the adjoining Greek commentary with which the manuscript was supplied are so mixed up as to be almost indistinguishable, Erasmus depended upon the Latin Vulgate, translating this text into Greek. As would be expected from such a procedure, here and there in Erasmus’ self-made Greek text are readings which have never been found in any known Greek manuscript - but which are still perpetuated today in printings of the so-called Textus Receptus of the Greek New Testament.
Even in other parts of the New Testament Erasmus occasionally introduced into his Greek text material taken from the Latin Vulgate. Thus in Acts ix. 6, the question which Paul asks at the time of his conversion on the Damascus road, ‘And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?’, was frankly interpolated by Erasmus from the Latin Vulgate. This addition, which is found in no Greek manuscript at this passage (though it appears in the parallel account of Acts xxii. 10), became part of the Textus Receptus, from which the King James version was made in 1611.
The reception accorded Erasmus’ edition, the first published Greek New Testament, was mixed. On the one hand, it found many purchasers throughout Europe. Within three years a second edition was called for, and the total number of copies of the 1516 and 1519 editions amounted to 3,300. The second edition became the basis of Luther’s German translation….
Among the criticisms leveled at Erasmus one of the most serious appeared to be the charge of Stunica, one of the editors of Ximenes’ Complutensian Polyglot, that his text lacked part of the final chapter of I John, namely the Trinitarian statement concerning ‘the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth’ (I John v. 7-8, King James version). Erasmus replied that he had not found any Greek manuscript containing these words, though he had in the meanwhile examined several others besides those on which he relied when first preparing his text. In a guarded moment Erasmus promised that he would insert Comma Johanneum, as it is called, in future editions if a single Greek manuscript could be found – or was made to order! As it now appears, the Greek manuscript had probably been written in Oxford about 1520 by a Franciscan friar named Froy (or Roy), who took the disputed words from the Latin Vulgate. Erasmus stood by his promise and inserted the passage in his third edition (1522), but he indicates in a lengthy footnote his suspicions that the manuscript had been prepared expressly in order to refute him.
Among the thousands of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament examined since the time of Erasmus, only three others are known to contain this spurious passage. They are Greg. 88, a twelfth-century manuscript which has the Comma written in the margin in a seventeenth-century hand; Tisch. w 110, which is, a sixteenth-century manuscript copy of the Complutensian Polyglot Greek text; and Greg. 629, dating from the fourteenth or, as Riggenbach has argued, from the latter half of the sixteenth century. The oldest known citation of the Comma is in a fourth-century Latin treatise entitled Liber apologeticus (ch. 4), attributed either to Priscillian or to his follower, Bishop Instantius of Spain. The Comma probably originated as a piece of allegorical exegesis of the three witnesses and may have been written as a marginal gloss in a Latin manuscript of I John, when it was taken into the text of the Old Latin Bible during the fifth century. The passage does not appear in manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate before about A.D. 800….
Thus the text of Erasmus’ Greek New Testament rests upon a half-dozen miniscule [lower case script] manuscripts. The oldest and best of these manuscripts (codex I, a miniscule of the tenth century, which agrees often with the earlier uncial [upper case script] text) he used least, because he was afraid of its supposedly erratic text! Erasmus’ text is inferior in critical value to the Complutensian, yet because it was the first on the market and was available in a cheaper and more convenient form, it attained a far greater influence than its rival, which had been in preparation from 1502 to 1514….
Subsequent editors, though making a number of alterations in Erasmus’ text, essentially reproduced this debased form of the Greek Testament. Having secured an undeserved pre-eminence, what came to be called the Textus Receptus of the New Testament resisted for 400 years all scholarly efforts to displace it in favour of an earlier and more accurate text.
Dean,
Back to your statement that the Textus Receptus used 60-70 MSS. One of the greatest textual critics of the 20th century was the late Bruce Metzger, who died in 2007 at the age of 93. You say that the TR used 60-70 MSS. Metzger's language is 'he utilized several for various parts of the New Testament. For most of the text he relied on two rather inferior manuscripts' (reference below).
Bruce Metzger (1992:99-103) has summarised the situation:
This is an overview of how Metzger understood the TR came to be compiled and it does not support the superiority of the TR, but shows its weaknesses.
Works consulted
Metzger, B. M. 1992. The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption,and Restoration (third ed). New York/Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Oz
I actually downloaded that off the internet 2 years ago.
However, I did not use his writing as a basis for what I said.
This goes back to a thread started back a year or two ago by Jack Koons, and why I have been studying textual criticism.
What information I got as to the mss used by the KJ translators was from a KJV Only site.
Go back and count the number of MSS used prior to the KJV.
Go back and count the number of lectionaries.
Go back and count the number of bibles.
Counting everything, seems to me I came up with a number around 54 MSS used. But I said 60-70 just to give myself some room for error.
And no matter how you slice it, the KJV has its roots in Erasmus' work.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Dean,
And Erasmus's work is late with MSS from the 12th century. You have properly noted that since then about 5,000 MSS, partial MSS or pieces of MSS have been found that are earlier by 100s of years than the Textus Receptus.
This doesn't seem to get through to the KJV-Only Trinitarian Bible Society folks who want to provide incorrect information about the superiority of the TR and the inferiority of the Critical Text.
Oz
My biggest problem is with those who say "God preserved His word in the KJV".
We also know that the only way the word got around was by circulating the epistles to various churches.
How long of that (circulating) did it take before the letters were more than likely damaged?
I read that as early as AD 175, copies were already being made.
In the next 1200 years of copies being made, what is the likelihood of mistakes, misreadings, or errors being introduced?
To say that the KJ translators were "inspired" by God and that they got it absolutely right with only 54 mss screams of...
Prudence dictates that with the now known 5400 MSS in existence, that a more through examination and comparison be attempted.
Quite the task too I might add. I know that some individuals took as long as 20 years doing their research. And that being with far less mss than what we have today.
I also like George Rice's dissertation on the textual variants in the Codex Bezae in Luke.
Interesting read.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Dean,
I agree with you that it is a large problem with those who are fixated on the KJV being the only translation where God preserved His word. We know that there was the Latin Vulgate and the English translations of Wycliffe, Tyndale and Coverdale before the KJV. To insist that the KJV is God's way of preserving his word is only part of the solution. He used many MSS and translations throughout the history of the church.
The first canon of the NT Scriptures, the Muratorian Canon, was circulating in the years AD 170-200. The nature of vellum (calf skin) for writing the early codices was more durable than the later papyrus paper. I expect the papyri to be more expendable than the vellum, but the dry climate of the Middle East helped with preservation.
I think the issue we face is that neither side wants to concede ground. I don't find the KJV-only side rational and I cannot sustain that view. My doctoral studies more than convinced me that the UBS Greek text is the best we have available today. And as you have pointed out, no major doctrine is affected whether one accepts one view or the other.
Sincerely in Christ,
Oz
The above is a misunderstanding of the KJV Only position. Leaving aside the Latin Vulgate (which has its own issues), Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthews, the Bishops' Bible, etc. were all acceptable to the KJV translators. But their goal was to make out of many translations one good one to which none would take exception. And the proof lies in the fact that the Authorized Version was indeed regarded by all non-Catholics are THE Holy Bible for hundreds of years. Even the Geneva Bible did not hold the same position.I agree with you that it is a large problem with those who are fixated on the KJV being the only translation where God preserved His word. We know that there was the Latin Vulgate and the English translations of Wycliffe, Tyndale and Coverdale before the KJV. To insist that the KJV is God's way of preserving his word is only part of the solution. He used many MSS and translations throughout the history of the church.
There is no rational basis for rejecting the majority of manuscripts in favor of a minority of corrupted manuscripts. Had it not been the fantasies of Westcott and Hort, we would not even be having this discussion. Unless you have studied what Burgon, Scrivener and others had to say about W&H, you cannot imagine how they attempted to make a delusion into a reality. Unfortunately, almost all the critics bought their untenable theory, so all the critical texts are essentially W&H. And they are clearly a corrupted form of the Bible.
There is no rational basis for rejecting the majority of manuscripts in favor of a minority of corrupted manuscripts. Had it not been the fantasies of Westcott and Hort, we would not even be having this discussion. Unless you have studied what Burgon, Scrivener and others had to say about W&H, you cannot imagine how they attempted to make a delusion into a reality. Unfortunately, almost all the critics bought their untenable theory, so all the critical texts are essentially W&H. And they are clearly a corrupted form of the Bible.
There is no rational basis for rejecting the majority of manuscripts in favor of a minority of corrupted manuscripts. Had it not been the fantasies of Westcott and Hort, we would not even be having this discussion. Unless you have studied what Burgon, Scrivener and others had to say about W&H, you cannot imagine how they attempted to make a delusion into a reality. Unfortunately, almost all the critics bought their untenable theory, so all the critical texts are essentially W&H. And they are clearly a corrupted form of the Bible.
Erasmus has been made the whipping boy by the anti-KJV crowd, since most Christians are not familiar with the development of the Received Text. Erasmus may have had only a few (five) of the manuscripts representing the Traditional Text, but what he had was sufficient to begin with. And let us never forget that he did have access to other manuscripts and all the libraries of Europe. Erasmus made five editions between 1516 and 1535.Now tell me how many made up 'the majority of manuscripts' that were uncorrupted that Erasmus used in compiling the Textus Receptus.
Comparative example (1 Timothy 3:16). Please note that THEOS (GOD) is found in each case.
RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶ τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν Πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶ τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
King James Bible
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
In comparison, you will NOT find *GOD* in the modern Bible versions.