Kent Hovind Arrested...

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seebs

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JL, Hovind is a soundbite guy. He sounds eminently reasonable if he has control over the topic. He's gotten busted on all sorts of stupid lies, and he just keeps repeating them. I'm not talking about stuff that's part of the real debate between creationist and evolutionist theories; I'm talking stuff that other creationists admit is stupid.

The guy is a con artist, pure and simple. If we accept even a fraction of the figures he claims for tapes sold, etcetera, he's making seven-figure income and paying no taxes...
 
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Mallon

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vossler said:
What is disturbing is that a fellow Christian is seemingly gloating over this event. I'm at a loss to understand why.
Are you not more disturbed at the number of creationists rallying in support of a gun-toting, lying fraud? I'm reminded of the support rallies held outside of Michael Jackson's home last year...

Are there any YECs here who will denounce Hovind's deplorable actions? :( This is not a proud day for Christianity.
 
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vossler

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Mallon said:
Are you not more disturbed at the number of creationists rallying in support of a gun-toting, lying fraud? I'm reminded of the support rallies held outside of Michael Jackson's home last year...

Are there any YECs here who will denounce Hovind's deplorable actions? :( This is not a proud day for Christianity.
I have to keep reminding myself of where I am, this isn't China or Cuba but the United States of America. A country where one is supposedly innocent until proven guilty. Yet many Christians here have convicted a man before his trial.

Is this the way you'll respond should I ever get arrested? I pray not! :prayer:

You most certainly are right with one statement you made. This is not a proud day for Christianity. :(
 
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chaoschristian said:
Specifically withdrawing less than $10,000 with the intent to avoid reporting laws, in conjunction with other illegal activity, is a crime.

So, his crime is one purely of alleged intent? And, you deny it's a BS charge?

You say his intent in a legal action makes his legal action a crime because of its conjunction with other illegal activity? That's a BS basis for a crime (even if it the law), but nevermind. That illegal activity is?????

Bank reporting laws are a violation of the 4th Amendment. But, we already know that the Constitution is a dead letter.

BTW, here is what I assume is the relevant law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode31/usc_sec_31_00005324----000-.html

This is BS Big Brother type law. Such laws, by reason of vagueness and victimless nature allow anyone to be charged on a whim by the government.
 
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chaoschristian

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Poke said:
So, his crime is one purely of alleged intent? And, you deny it's a BS charge?

You say his intent in a legal action makes his legal action a crime because of its conjunction with other illegal activity? That's a BS basis for a crime (even if it the law), but nevermind. That illegal activity is?????

Bank reporting laws are a violation of the 4th Amendment. But, we already know that the Constitution is a dead letter.

BTW, here is what I assume is the relevant law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode31/usc_sec_31_00005324----000-.html

This is BS Big Brother type law. Such laws, by reason of vagueness and victimless nature allow anyone to be charged on a whim by the government.

We are called to respect, uphold and obey the law as Christians.

If we choose to violate the law, whether for righteousness or selfishness, we must expect to pay the consequences.
 
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seebs

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The issue here is that this arrest is just the culmination of a long period of inquiry. The essential facts are in many cases already findings of law; he has been the recipient of court orders, etcetera.

In short, yes, he has in fact already been proven guilty, in that it has been established by competent courts that he did the things in question. This is not new, either; he's been bragging about some of them for years.
 
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chaoschristian said:
We are called to respect, uphold and obey the law as Christians.

If we choose to violate the law, whether for righteousness or selfishness, we must expect to pay the consequences.

Which law did Hovind break? The law I refered to is one that that practically no one would know they're violating. As far as he knows, he was working within the law, and he was as far as any valid law goes. Hovind doesn't appear to be motivated by criminal concerns, but by the desire to be free of government coersion, and he believes that's his right, so he's been fighting for it.
 
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seebs

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Excuses about "valid laws" are useless; if we want to talk validity, technically we should be under tribal law, since we stole this land. :p

Seriously, though, those excuses are worthless. We can argue that maybe the government should not have passed some laws, but they did.

Hovind, well aware of what the law requiring taxes is (no matter what he thinks it ought to be), disobeys it.

This is not significantly different from his burglary charges a while back.

The guy's a con-man. He's been busted on it by Creationist groups; it's not like this is some wacky evolutionist plot.

I don't see why it's such a big deal. We've always had snake-oil salesmen in our little family. We catch 'em, we call 'em on it, they repent or they leave.

Unless they're really photogenic and have a lot of emotionally gripping soundbites against evolution; then we defend them and make up surrealist theories of constitutional interpretation so we can pretend it's okay.
 
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T

The Lady Kate

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seebs said:
Excuses about "valid laws" are useless; if we want to talk validity, technically we should be under tribal law, since we stole this land. :p

Seriously, though, those excuses are worthless. We can argue that maybe the government should not have passed some laws, but they did.

Hovind, well aware of what the law requiring taxes is (no matter what he thinks it ought to be), disobeys it.

This is not significantly different from his burglary charges a while back.

The guy's a con-man. He's been busted on it by Creationist groups; it's not like this is some wacky evolutionist plot.

I don't see why it's such a big deal. We've always had snake-oil salesmen in our little family. We catch 'em, we call 'em on it, they repent or they leave.

Unless they're really photogenic and have a lot of emotionally gripping soundbites against evolution; then we defend them and make up surrealist theories of constitutional interpretation so we can pretend it's okay.

Some folks will just go to great lengths to defend an Idol...
 
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chaoschristian

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seebs said:
Excuses about "valid laws" are useless; if we want to talk validity, technically we should be under tribal law, since we stole this land. :p

Seriously, though, those excuses are worthless. We can argue that maybe the government should not have passed some laws, but they did.

Hovind, well aware of what the law requiring taxes is (no matter what he thinks it ought to be), disobeys it.

This is not significantly different from his burglary charges a while back.

The guy's a con-man. He's been busted on it by Creationist groups; it's not like this is some wacky evolutionist plot.

I don't see why it's such a big deal. We've always had snake-oil salesmen in our little family. We catch 'em, we call 'em on it, they repent or they leave.

Unless they're really photogenic and have a lot of emotionally gripping soundbites against evolution; then we defend them and make up surrealist theories of constitutional interpretation so we can pretend it's okay.

My own personal and wildly speculative theory is that Hovind actually believes himself to be Harold Hill.
 
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seebs

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chaoschristian said:
My own personal and wildly speculative theory is that Hovind actually believes himself to be Harold Hill.

And that's trouble with a capital T, and that rhymes with E, and that stands for Evolution!
 
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kiwimac

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The following is from Wikipedia

Hovind has been in trouble with law enforcement several times.
[edit]
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Assault and battery

In 2002, he was charged with one count of felony assault, one count misdemeanor battery, and one count assault and burglary.[6] In December 2002, the charges were dropped by the alleged victim, Hovind's secretary.[5]
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Property taxes and zoning ordinance

Hovind was charged on September 13, 2002 for failure to observe county zoning regulations with respect to Dinosaur Adventure Land.[5] Despite arguments that the owners did not need a permit due to the nature of the building, [7] the park has been found in violation of local regulations. On June 5th 2006, Hovind pled nolo contendere as charged to three counts: constructing a building without a permit, refusing to sign a citation (Case # 2001 MM 023489 A)[14] and violating the county building code (case # 2002 MM 026670 A)[15]. Hovind was ordered to pay $225.00 per count. The plea brings to an end the 5-year criminal (misdemeanor) court battle over a $50.00 building permit. The 4-year civil court battle with the county remains open (Case # 2002 CA 000149)[16]. Hovind estimates he spent $40,000in legal expenses on this case. On June 19th, 2006, the delilquent 2003-2005 property taxes/penalties for Dinosaur Adventure Land were paid in an amount of $10,402.64 [17].
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Tax evasion

Hovind does not run his various educational and religious activities through a U.S. Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) organization. Instead, the organizational structure he uses apparently is "based on various questionable trust documents purchased from ... a known promoter of tax avoidance schemes."[3] The U.S. Tax Court has concluded that Hovind used these trust documents as well as other fraudulent means to conceal the ownership and control of his activities and properties.[3]

In 1996 Hovind unsuccessfully filed for bankruptcy to avoid paying federal income taxes. Hovind was found to have lied about his possessions and income[18]. He claimed that as a minister of God everything he owns belonged to God and he is not subject to paying taxes to the United States on the money he received for doing God's work (citing US tax code §508(c)(1)(a)) [19].

The court ordered him to pay the money and upheld the IRS's determination that Hovind's claim "was filed in bad faith for the sole purpose of avoiding payment of federal income taxes." In the ruling, the judge called Hovind's arguments "patently absurd." The judge also noted that "the IRS has no record of the debtor ever having filed a federal income tax return," although this was not the court's reason for denying the bankruptcy claim.

On May 13, 1998, Hovind and his wife attempted to evade all responsibility for any previous promises, debts, or legal agreements made prior to April 15, 1998, by filing a document called "Power of Attorney and Revocation of Signature" [20] with the Escambia County Clerk of Courts. The document reads, in part: "I/we do hereby revoke and make void... all signatures on any instruments...". The Hovinds claimed they had signed government documents "due to the use of various elements of fraud and misrepresentations, duress, coercion, under perjury, mistake, 'bankruptcy'."

In the document, the Hovinds argue that Social Security is essentially a "Ponzi scheme" (many conservative and libertarian economists agree, e.g. Thomas Sowell).[8] The Hovinds referred to the United States Government as "the 'bankrupt' corporate government" and said they were revoking their United States citizenship and social security numbers to become "a natural citizen of 'America' and a natural sojourner."[21][8] In 2002 Hovind was again delinquent in paying his taxes, and unsuccessfully sued the United States Internal Revenue Service for harassment.[citation needed] They referred to their home state of Florida as "the State of Florida Body-Politic Corporation." Judges and the IRS did not appear to honor this as a legally relevant document in future decisions. [citation needed]

In 2004, IRS agents raided Hovind's home and business to confiscate financial records.[22] IRS agent Scott Schneider said none of Hovind's businesses had a business license, nor tax-exempt status. The Associated Press quoted Schneider as saying "Since 1997, Hovind has engaged in financial transactions indicating sources of income and has made deposits to bank accounts well in excess of $1 million per year during some of these years, which would require the filing of federal income taxes."[23]

On June 3 2004, the IRS issued tax liens [24] of $504,957.24 against Hovind and his son and their businesses. A separate lien was filed for each, due to previous legal maneuverings on the part of the elder Hovind to evade taxation by moving property between himself, his son, and other legal entities. The IRS is currently (July 2006) proceeding to levy Hovind's property to satisfy his tax liabilities.[3]
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Threats, false complaints and criminal tax charges

On July 13, 2006, Kent Hovind was arrested and indicted in federal court on 58 charges. Of the charges filed, there is one count of corruptly endeavoring to obstruct and impede the due administration of the internal revenue laws, including falsifying bankruptcy documents, filing a false and frivolous lawsuit and complaints against the IRS, destroying records, and threatening to harm IRS investigators. 12 of the charges are for failing to pay employee-related taxes, totaling $473,818, and 45 charges of evading reporting requirements by making multiple cash withdrawals just under the $10,000 reporting requirement (smurfing). The withdrawals, totaling $430,500, were placed in 2001 and 2002.

However, Hovind has maintained his innocence. "I still don't understand what I'm being charged for and who is charging me," he said. [25]

Source


Kiwimac
 
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Mallon

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Speaking of laws, I'm beginning to sense a new scientific Law arising here (and in the CvE forum): the degree to which a person will defend Hovind's innocence is inversely proportional to that person's knowledge of science.

What shall we call this thing? The Hovind Law? ;)

I guess all these musings will be put to rest on Monday when Hovind appears in court to defend himself.
 
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KerrMetric

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Mallon said:
Speaking of laws, I'm beginning to sense a new scientific Law arising here (and in the CvE forum): the degree to which a person will defend Hovind's innocence is inversely proportional to that person's knowledge of science.

What shall we call this thing? The Hovind Law? ;)

I guess all these musings will be put to rest on Monday when Hovind appears in court to defend himself.

Actually it is probably at least an inverse cube relationship.
 
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Redneck Crow

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Y'know, I'm no fan of Hovind's.

Running afoul of the law is a lousy thing to do because it discredits all Christians and our faith, not just the YECs.

But that's a topic that seems to be a bit removed from the origins forum topics.

If he wants to run a bad parody of a roadside zoo, that's his business. If he wants to list a copy of the ten commandments under "fossils," that's his business, albeit tasteless. But a bad parody of a roadside zoo isn't a church, it's a business, and should be dealt with as such. And building codes and taxes apply to him just as they apply to all of us.

I can't enclose my patio because of local building codes and as much as I feel that it's a stupid law that doesn't mean that I'm exempt from complying with it nor does it mean that they are enforcing the code because I'm a TE either.

I checked out Hovind's site. One of the things that stood out to me is that a man who feels that he and his staff are qualified to teach others about trilobites doesn't realize that most of the trilobites aren't extinct, all of them are.

I suspect that if Hovind were to produce a single living trilobite he'd be able to cash that critter in for more than enough to render unto Caesar what ought to be rendered unto Caesar.

For those who want to see the "mostly extinct" trilobite info, here's a link to his site. About page 3 of the fossils section. The ten commandments are toward the back of the "fossil" section.

http://www.dinosauradventureland.com/
 
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Hovind could easily have paid a few dollars for a building permit instead of spending thousands on a legal fight to exempt the ministry. He could easily have registered his ministry as a 501c non-profit with the IRS, and avoided costly legal issues. He could have easily withheld SS, medicare, and income taxes from what he paid those working for him as employees, instead of leaving the payment of these taxes up to those hired as contractors, and avoided tax evasion charges.

Hovind is only charged with violating BS Big Brother laws, not of lying, stealing, etc. Hovind is an eccentric man who really believes that God's business is not the State's business, and he's willing to fight for it.
 
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random_guy

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Poke said:
Hovind could easily have paid a few dollars for a building permit instead of spending thousands on a legal fight to exempt the ministry. He could easily have registered his ministry as a 501c non-profit with the IRS, and avoided costly legal issues. He could have easily withheld SS, medicare, and income taxes from what he paid those working for him as employees, instead of leaving the payment of these taxes up to those hired as contractors, and avoided tax evasion charges.

Hovind is only charged with violating BS Big Brother laws, not of lying, stealing, etc. Hovind is an eccentric man who really believes that God's business is not the State's business, and he's willing to fight for it.

Of course, if you change Hovind's name with some business that makes profit from employing undocumented workers, in the name of God, all conservatives would be up in arms. Tax evasion is tax evasion, whether it's in God's name or not. It's funny to see how so many people seem support illegal activities because the person fighting is religious.
 
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