Kenneth Miller's Reconciliation of Evolution with His Catholic Faith

Deadworm

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I recently watched this YouTube video of cell biologist Kenneth Miller's lecture at Yale. It is the most stimulating lecture I have ever heard online. It has the potential to elevate the level of dialogue created by the God and evolution thread. Among other things, it has prompted me to rethink (not reject) Behe's argument for irreducible complexity/ Against Behe, Miller cites on 20 published studies on the possible evolution of the flagellum :"machine." I say "rethink" because I'd need to know more about the detailed arguments of theses studies (which Behe rejects) before finalizing my conclusion.

Cell biologist, Kenneth Miller, is considered by many the poster boy for evolution theory on the lecture circuit, the key witness against Intelligent Design in courts cases about the place of evolution theory in public education, and an author of standard high school and college text books on biology and evolution. I'd be very interested to ponder reader reactions to the way Miller's (for me, surprising) Catholicism is reconciled with this secular role. I'd also be interested in what readers think of his characterization of the agenda of Intelligent Design proponents like the Discovery Institute, which Miller thinks is decisively discredited by the Dover trial, at which he was a star pro-evolution witness. When you watch this, please be sure also to watch the Q & A session afterwards. This is Yale and the questioners are very perceptive and knowledgeable. Here then is the video:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6A296628430FF65FA2C96A296628430FF65&FORM=VIRE

 

Papias

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Thanks for showing us this - great post!

You wrote:

...Miller's (for me, surprising) Catholicism is reconciled with (supporting evolution)

Actually, this is a perfect fit, not surprising at all. Our Holy Church is a big supporter of evolution. In fact, not just a big supporter, but is the largest single force in the world for the acceptance of evolution.


A list showing the RCC acceptance of evolution:

  1. Humani Generis, an official papal encyclical by Pope Pious XII which allows evolution.
  2. Interpretation of Humani Generis by Pope John Paul II, just in case anyone was unclear that Humani Generis allows for evolution
  3. The fact that evolution is openly taught by Catholic teachers to Catholic students in Catholic Universities and Schools,
  4. Confirmation of open support of evolution by the Vatican in a commissioned report chaired by Pope Emeritus Benedict, saying evolution is "virtually certain" .
  5. Many of the most outspoken evolution supporters are Catholic, such as Ken Miller, Dr. Ayayla, etc.
  6. Clear statements from the last three Popes (Francis, Benedict, JPII) in support of Evolution over Creationism.
Note that the list includes at least three popes, an official encyclical, a Vatican commission report, and the actions of thousands of Catholic officials doing their jobs, right now. In fact, perhaps the most striking fact is #3.

That's because the Catholic school & University system is the biggest educational system in the world. The enthusiastic teaching of evolution in all those Catholic institutions means that our Catholic church teaches evolution to more people than are taught evolution by any other organization. Have you seen the floor mosaic at the Catholic University of Notre Dame? Here it is:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...jpg/220px-Dobzhansky_Evolution_Notre_Dame.jpg

It reads: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.

Among other things, it has prompted me to rethink (not reject) Behe's argument for irreducible complexity/ Against Behe, Miller cites on 20 published studies on the possible evolution of the flagellum :"machine." I say "rethink" because I'd need to know more about the detailed arguments of theses studies (which Behe rejects) before finalizing my conclusion.

Not to get too far off the topic of how strongly the RCC supports evolution, but Behe's argument never had a leg to stand on. First and foremost, the idea of IC was arrived at nearly a century ago, long before Behe was born, under the name "interlocking complexity". IC shows systems that cannot function without every single one of their parts present. Back then, this was shown to be easily arrived at by evolution, when evolution adds parts, adds parts, adds parts, and then removes parts that are no longer needed - resulting in an IC system. Of course you can't get there only by adding parts stepwise - because the final steps are removing parts! Even back then, IC systems were recognized as good evidence for evolution.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ICsilly.html

Behe is either too incompetent to know basic ideas in his own field of study, or dishonest enough to hide them while he makes money selling books of quackery to unsuspecting non-biologists.

In Christ-

Papias

P. S. Deadworm - not to give Catholics all the credit, as most main Christian denominations have accepted evolution, including your Methodist church. This has been made official in church resolutions, statements, etc, which you can find easily by looking online (or asking your pastor). Here's an article about it from your church: http://www.umc.org/news-and-media/its-time-for-people-of-faith-to-accept-evolution
 
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Deadworm

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The theory of evolution is foundational to modern scientific disciplines and thus needs to be taught for its heuristic [predictive and explanatory] value. Intelligent Design advocates need to admit that they lack a comprehensive alternative theory to offer the education system. This deficiency leaves them with the implausible "God of the gaps:" I. e. the view that natural selection and genetic mutation produce increased complexity and adaptability over time, until an irreducibly complex leap (e. g. the flagellum) is needed, forcing God to step in with a special act of creation. That view is not only implausible; it transforms evolution into a theory that becomes increasingly unfalsifiable even in principle. So if an Intelligent Designer is needed, that Designer surely builds the future potential for otherwise irreducibly complex systems like the flagellum into the outflow of matter/ energy right from the Big Bang. That, I believe, is the position implicit in Miller's theology (though I'd love to learn if he agrees).

I guess I continue to have a twofold major quibble: (1) The analogy of an outboard motor does seem apt for the flagellum "machine;" and so it does seem irreducibly complex like Behe's mousetrap analogy suggests. The scientific response to Behe seems to involve the alleged "cannibalization" of parts from other molecular "machines," parts that seem structurally similar to their corresponding flagellum part. But what is hard for me to swallow is the claim that random selection and genetic mutation can "reengineer" the flagellum by incorporating these parts. For this to happen, each gradual mutation would seem to need some adaptive function and that new function does not seem to have been demonstrated. So I don't think Behe's mousetrap analogy commits the fallacy of weak analogy.

What then might account for the formation of irreducibly complex molecular "machines?" I'm a historian and , as such, must confess that I'm not current on the latest attempts in scientific journals to refute Behe. So I'm left with 2 other possibilities: (1) I'm intrigued by biologist Rupert Sheldrake's studies that seem to support his theory of morphogenetic fields around crystals and living systems. I'd appreciate any scientific assessment of this Sheldrake video in which he lays out this theory and the research invoked in its support:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...CF4DE2FE49720626754ACF4DE2FE4972062&FORM=VIRE

(2) Science has a very poor understanding of the cause and nature of consciousness (life).and therefore can't solve the age-old mind/body problem. I wonder if unknown laws of consciousness (life) are essential to the explanation of how even alleged irreducibly complex systems and molecular "machines" can evolve with the help of random selection and genetic mutation. I'd welcome any constructive engagement that might help me advance my inquiry.

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  4. May 19, 2016 #7

    fantome profanequintessence of dust
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    The theory of evolution is foundational to modern scientific disciplines and thus needs to be taught for its heuristic value. Intelligent Design advocates need to admit that they lack a comprehensive alternative theory to offer the education system. This deficiency leaves them with the implausible "God of the gaps:" I. e. the view that natural selection and genetic mutation produce increased complexity and adaptability over time, until an irreducibly complex leap (e. g. the flagellum) is needed, forcing God to step in with a special act of creation. That view is not only implausible; it transforms evolution into a theory that becomes increasingly unfalsifiable even in principle. So if an Intelligent Designer is needed, that Designer surely builds the future potential for otherwise irreducibly complex systems like the flagellum into the outflow of matter/ energy right from the Big Bang. That, I believe, is the position implicit in Miller's theology (though I love to learn if he agrees).

    I guess I continue to have a twofold major quibble: (1) The analogy of an outboard motor does seem apt for the flagellum "machine;" and so it does seem irreducibly complex like Behe's mousetrap analogy suggests. The scientific response to Behe seems to involve the alleged "cannibalization" of parts from other molecular "machines," parts that seem structurally similar to their corresponding flagellum part. But what is hard for me to swallow is the claim that random selection and genetuc mutation can "reengineer" the flagellum by incorporating these parts. For this to happen, each gradual mutation would seem to need some adaptive function and that new function does not seem to have been demonstrated. So I don't think Behe's mousetrap analogy commits the fallacy of weak analogy.

    What then might account for the formation of irreducibly complex molecular "machines?" I'm a historian and , as such, must confess that I'm not current on the latest attempts in scientific journals to refute Behe. So I'm left with 2 other possibililties: (1) I'm intrigued by biologist Rupert Sheldrake's studies that seem to support his theory of morphogenetic fields around crystals and living systems. (2) Science has a very poor understanding of the cause and nature of consciousness (life).and therefore can't solve the age-old mind/body problem. I wonder if unknown laws of consciousness (life) are essential to the explanation of how even alleged irreducibly complex systems and molecular "machines" can evolve with the help of random selection and genetic mutation. I'd welcome any constructive engagement that might help me advance my inquiry.
    Click to expand...
    If you like Ken Miller you should read the book in my signature link. It answers these questions for you about the bacterial flagellum and other things.

    Finding Darwin’s God” by Kenneth R. Miller. For anyone interested in Creation/Evolution

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  5. May 20, 2016 #8

    sayak83Member
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    The theory of evolution is foundational to modern scientific disciplines and thus needs to be taught for its heuristic value. Intelligent Design advocates need to admit that they lack a comprehensive alternative theory to offer the education system. This deficiency leaves them with the implausible "God of the gaps:" I. e. the view that natural selection and genetic mutation produce increased complexity and adaptability over time, until an irreducibly complex leap (e. g. the flagellum) is needed, forcing God to step in with a special act of creation. That view is not only implausible; it transforms evolution into a theory that becomes increasingly unfalsifiable even in principle. So if an Intelligent Designer is needed, that Designer surely builds the future potential for otherwise irreducibly complex systems like the flagellum into the outflow of matter/ energy right from the Big Bang. That, I believe, is the position implicit in Miller's theology (though I love to learn if he agrees).

    I guess I continue to have a twofold major quibble: (1) The analogy of an outboard motor does seem apt for the flagellum "machine;" and so it does seem irreducibly complex like Behe's mousetrap analogy suggests. The scientific response to Behe seems to involve the alleged "cannibalization" of parts from other molecular "machines," parts that seem structurally similar to their corresponding flagellum part. But what is hard for me to swallow is the claim that random selection and genetuc mutation can "reengineer" the flagellum by incorporating these parts. For this to happen, each gradual mutation would seem to need some adaptive function and that new function does not seem to have been demonstrated. So I don't think Behe's mousetrap analogy commits the fallacy of weak analogy.

    What then might account for the formation of irreducibly complex molecular "machines?" I'm a historian and , as such, must confess that I'm not current on the latest attempts in scientific journals to refute Behe. So I'm left with 2 other possibililties: (1) I'm intrigued by biologist Rupert Sheldrake's studies that seem to support his theory of morphogenetic fields around crystals and living systems. I'd appreciate any scientific assessment of this Sheldrake video in which he lays out this theory and the research invoked in its support:

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...CF4DE2FE49720626754ACF4DE2FE4972062&FORM=VIRE

    (2) Science has a very poor understanding of the cause and nature of consciousness (life).and therefore can't solve the age-old mind/body problem. In my view, it is precisely the growing consensus that the mind and its memories are not contained in the brain that make this topic so relevant to Christian apologetics. Many neurologists now think the mind exists outside the space-time continuum and functions through the brain, using it as a kind of wave transmitter. If this view is correct, then its connection to divine mind becomes all the more intriguing. I wonder if unknown laws of consciousness (life) are essential to the explanation of how even alleged irreducibly complex systems and molecular "machines" can evolve with the support of random selection and genetic mutation, regardless of whether each micro-change has some adaptive function for the "machine."
 
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Papias

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so it does seem irreducibly complex like Behe's mousetrap analogy suggests.

Um, did you even read the explanation of "interlocking complexity" in my post, and read the link there? The point was that IC is completely easy to evolve, and that showing that something is IC only shows that it *CAN* evolve.

How about this, can you repeat back Mueller's point about interlocking complexity so I can know that you understand it?


So I don't think Behe's mousetrap analogy commits the fallacy of weak analogy.

It fails because Behe fundamentally misleads about how evolution works. Specifically, he hides the fact that evolution removes and changes parts instead of just adding them. That's why IC can evolve easily.

The scientific response to Behe seems to involve the alleged "cannibalization" of parts from other molecular "machines," parts that seem structurally similar to their corresponding flagellum part. But what is hard for me to swallow is the claim that random selection and genetic mutation can "reengineer" the flagellum by incorporating these parts. For this to happen, each gradual mutation would seem to need some adaptive function and that new function does not seem to have been demonstrated.

Yes, each mutation would have to be adaptive. That's included in the papers describing each change, because it's well known among biologists.

Have you seen this video?



appreciate any scientific assessment of this Sheldrake video in which he lays out this theory and the research invoked in its support:

Sheldrake is a quack. Attempts to replicate his research all fail, and he simply makes money off his books, like Behe. You can get a good overview of his scams on the wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake#cite_note-26

(2) Science has a very poor understanding of the cause and nature of consciousness (life).and therefore can't solve the age-old mind/body problem. I wonder if unknown laws of consciousness (life) are essential to the explanation of how even alleged irreducibly complex systems and molecular "machines" can evolve with the help of random selection and genetic mutation. I'd welcome any constructive engagement that might help me advance my inquiry.

The mind/body question has nothing to do with bacteria. Bacteria are well understood, and operate as molecular machines. There is no reason to think bacteria are any more conscious than your car. As shown above, and in the previous post, the evolution of IC systems is well understood and doesn't pose any kind of "problem". So you are proposing consciousness as a "solution" to a non-existent "problem".

In Christ-

Papias

P. S. Did you read my PS about the Methodist Church and evolution?
 
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Hoghead1

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Thanks for showing us this - great post!

You wrote:



Actually, this is a perfect fit, not surprising at all. Our Holy Church is a big supporter of evolution. In fact, not just a big supporter, but is the largest single force in the world for the acceptance of evolution.


A list showing the RCC acceptance of evolution:

  1. Humani Generis, an official papal encyclical by Pope Pious XII which allows evolution.
  2. Interpretation of Humani Generis by Pope John Paul II, just in case anyone was unclear that Humani Generis allows for evolution
  3. The fact that evolution is openly taught by Catholic teachers to Catholic students in Catholic Universities and Schools,
  4. Confirmation of open support of evolution by the Vatican in a commissioned report chaired by Pope Emeritus Benedict, saying evolution is "virtually certain" .
  5. Many of the most outspoken evolution supporters are Catholic, such as Ken Miller, Dr. Ayayla, etc.
  6. Clear statements from the last three Popes (Francis, Benedict, JPII) in support of Evolution over Creationism.
Note that the list includes at least three popes, an official encyclical, a Vatican commission report, and the actions of thousands of Catholic officials doing their jobs, right now. In fact, perhaps the most striking fact is #3.

That's because the Catholic school & University system is the biggest educational system in the world. The enthusiastic teaching of evolution in all those Catholic institutions means that our Catholic church teaches evolution to more people than are taught evolution by any other organization. Have you seen the floor mosaic at the Catholic University of Notre Dame? Here it is:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...jpg/220px-Dobzhansky_Evolution_Notre_Dame.jpg

It reads: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.



Not to get too far off the topic of how strongly the RCC supports evolution, but Behe's argument never had a leg to stand on. First and foremost, the idea of IC was arrived at nearly a century ago, long before Behe was born, under the name "interlocking complexity". IC shows systems that cannot function without every single one of their parts present. Back then, this was shown to be easily arrived at by evolution, when evolution adds parts, adds parts, adds parts, and then removes parts that are no longer needed - resulting in an IC system. Of course you can't get there only by adding parts stepwise - because the final steps are removing parts! Even back then, IC systems were recognized as good evidence for evolution.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ICsilly.html

Behe is either too incompetent to know basic ideas in his own field of study, or dishonest enough to hide them while he makes money selling books of quackery to unsuspecting non-biologists.

In Christ-

Papias

P. S. Deadworm - not to give Catholics all the credit, as most main Christian denominations have accepted evolution, including your Methodist church. This has been made official in church resolutions, statements, etc, which you can find easily by looking online (or asking your pastor). Here's an article about it from your church: http://www.umc.org/news-and-media/its-time-for-people-of-faith-to-accept-evolution
Good points!!
 
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Deadworm

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Um, did you even read the explanation of "interlocking complexity" in my post, and read the link there? The point was that IC is completely easy to evolve, and that showing that something is IC only shows that it *CAN* evolve.

How about this, can you repeat back Mueller's point about interlocking complexity so I can know that you understand it?




It fails because Behe fundamentally misleads about how evolution works. Specifically, he hides the fact that evolution removes and changes parts instead of just adding them. That's why IC can evolve easily.



Yes, each mutation would have to be adaptive. That's included in the papers describing each change, because it's well known among biologists.

Have you seen this video?





Sheldrake is a quack. Attempts to replicate his research all fail, and he simply makes money off his books, like Behe. You can get a good overview of his scams on the wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake#cite_note-26



The mind/body question has nothing to do with bacteria. Bacteria are well understood, and operate as molecular machines. There is no reason to think bacteria are any more conscious than your car. As shown above, and in the previous post, the evolution of IC systems is well understood and doesn't pose any kind of "problem". So you are proposing consciousness as a "solution" to a non-existent "problem".

In Christ-

Papias

P. S. Did you read my PS about the Methodist Church and evolution?
 
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Deadworm

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Papias: "Sheldrake is a quack. Attempts to replicate his research all fail, and he simply makes money off his books, like Behe. You can get a good overview of his scams on the wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake#cite_note-26"

Anyone who would rely on a highly biased Wikipedia article without giving Sheldrake a fair hearing should be dismissed as a myopic crank. Clearly, you have neither read Sheldrake's books nor viewed a representative sampling of his videos. In fact, he is constantly discussing the success of replication research on his discoveries.

Sheldrake's often replicated views on the mind/ body problem and its relevance to telepathy strike me as promising. Conventional science cannot even begin to account for paranormal phenomena like premonitions. I want to challenge you to watch for my upcoming thread in the Spiritual Gifts section of this site. I will take Sheldrake and Dossey's research as a starting point for recounting my many accurate premonitions. You may accuse me of lying, but you will not otherwise be able to explain them away.

As for the last video you posted, anyone who would create a video with ghastly music to distract from the all too fleeting pictures should be taken with a grain of salt. Papias, I have no dog in this fight. Indeed, I'd like to be a conventional evolutionist with integrity, but so far I find it too doctrinaire and unconvincing in crucial details. Still, I will reread and rewatch what you've posted to reassess whether your ad hominems mask a weak epistemology or whether the notion of "interlocking complexity" is compatible with survivable micro-changes that are truly adaptive.
 
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Deadworm

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  1. Discussions of the Bible vs. evolution usually focus on the Genesis creation story, bur neglect the biblical passage (Proverbs 8:22-23, 30-31) that, for me, expresses the principles of greatest relevance for this comparison: In my view, Proverbs 8 provides the closest biblical mandate for the evolutionary principles of random selection and genetic mutation. I quote this poetic speech by Lady Wisdom from the New Jerusalem translation:

    22.
    'Yahweh created me [Lady Wisdom], first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works.
    23. From everlasting, I was firmly set, from the beginning, before the earth came into being...
    30.I was beside the master craftsman, delighting him day after day, ever at play in his presence,
    31.at play everywhere on his earth, delighting to be with the children of men.

    The earliest reference to the Trinity (Greek: trias) can be found in Theophilus bishop of Antioch's Ad Autolycum--180 AD) and contains the triad Father, Word (= Christ), and Wisdom (Sophia), not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Jewish Wisdom literature, Wisdom (Hebrew: hochmah: Greek: Sophia) is personified and often speaks as if She is an entity separate from God. But this is illusory because the Jews embrace monotheism. So why do they find it expedient to speak of Wisdom as if She is a distinct entity? Because Wisdom expresses the laws of creation that were established at the dawn of creation and operate independently of intervening divine fiat! Thus Wisdom declares that God created Her before the universe and that She, or rather her laws, were then "firmly fixed" (8:22-23) or established. Thus the biblical concept of Lady Wisdom overlaps with our modern poetic concept of Mother Nature.

    So what is Wisdom's (= Mother Nature's) role as partner to the "Master Craftsman" or Architect? Wisdom's role is to support God not through purposive "work," but through divine "play (8:30-31)." This image allows for seemingly random non-purposive process that, though playful or experimental, leads to a grand ordered result. Thus, the Bible sows poetic seeds for the evolutionary principle of random selection. As might be expected, then, Jewish Wisdom literature assigns a role to Chance in the course of life: "All are victims of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11). I wish I could share this post with Kenneth Miller as a means of supplementing his dual identities as evolutionist and Roman Catholic.
 
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Papias

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Anyone who would rely on a highly biased Wikipedia article without giving Sheldrake a fair hearing should be dismissed as a myopic crank. Clearly, you have neither read Sheldrake's books nor viewed a representative sampling of his videos.

I referred to the Wiki article because it's a handy summary - you are welcome to look at other sources, or I can supply some. For instance, Sheldrake's TEDeX talk contained so much pseudoscience that it had to be dealt with by TEDeX, and they realized that they needed to have a peer-review board to flag pseudoscience like his. There's plenty more out there. It's not a surprise that scientists recognize his buffoonery, and the only support he gets is from flaky nuts like Deepak Chopra.

I've watched many of his videos, and read material by him and by those who tested his ideas. After it became clear from those that he's a quack, I wasn't about to give him my hard-earned money for his snake-oil books. He's peddling New-Age Larmarckianism and seems to have missed the last 200 years of biological research - and that's widely recognized (see above).

In fact, he is constantly discussing the success of replication research on his discoveries.

No, he's constantly pretending that the many failures of actual tests of his ideas are instead successes. If you read something other than his own spin, you can see this yourself. It's a shell game (or rather, a sheldrake game).

Sheldrake's often replicated views on the mind/ body problem and its relevance to telepathy strike me as promising.

They are just new age word salad, like this:
http://sebpearce.com/[bless and do ...ss and do not curse][bless and do not curse]/
(be sure to click on "reionize electrons")
(Darn, the autocorrect is messing it up. To find it, just google "reionize electrons" "new age".

Conventional science cannot even begin to account for paranormal phenomena like premonitions.

Because there are no phenomenon like that. Every time some are proposed, and tested, they are found to be simple chance - and more often, parlor tricks. Science has been testing these kinds of things for literally 200 years. It's really easy to see this when one sees how quickly a new phenomenon is confirmed. Scientists are desperately trying to find any new, especially unexplained, phenomenon. It's a golden ticket to fame, fortune, and *tenure*. Look at how quickly new phenomenon, like, say, X-rays, or radioactive decay, skyrocketed from unknown to Nobel prize.

That's why is obvious to anyone who actually does science that if Sheldrake had any evidence at all, and if the phenomenon were real, he'd already have a Nobel prize and would be regarded in the scientific community in the same way that Newton is. Instead, he's a quack who not only can't produce publishable results, but instead makes money from gullible saps who buy his books.


As for the last video you posted, anyone who would create a video with ghastly music to distract from the all too fleeting pictures should be taken with a grain of salt.

Musical tastes are no reason to disregard what the biological scientific community agrees upon. You can get better pictures and more time spent on it by taking a class in bacterial biology at any University - taught by actual biologists who understand that Behe doesn't have a leg to stand on.


I'd like to be a conventional evolutionist with integrity, but so far I find it too doctrinaire and unconvincing in crucial details.

Really? What details do you find lacking? Perhaps those are "detail problems" claimed by pseudoscientists, and aren't actually real? If you want to learn actual biology, I suggest learning from actual, mainstream, biologists. Have you seen these courses available in audio form, at the http://www.thegreatcourses.com/? Or go to a University. Nonetheless, - kudos for typing in the words "interlocking complexity".


  1. Discussions of the Bible vs. evolution usually focus on the Genesis creation story, bur neglect the biblical passage (Proverbs 8:22-23, 30-31) that, for me, expresses the principles of greatest relevance for this comparison: In my view, Proverbs 8 provides the closest biblical mandate for the evolutionary principles of random selection and genetic mutation. .......Thus, the Bible sows poetic seeds for the evolutionary principle of random selection. As might be expected, then, Jewish Wisdom literature assigns a role to Chance in the course of life: "All are victims of time and chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11). I wish I could share this post with Kenneth Miller as a means of supplementing his dual identities as evolutionist and Roman Catholic.

Yes, those are good! Another is John 5:17

Jesus answered them, “My Father is still working, and I also am working.”

God's creative process is always going on, as God continually uses evolution to create new forms of life. This refutes the deist view of creationism, which limits God's creative action to 6 days, with no creating afterwards.

As discussed above, Ken Miller's evolution support and Catholicism aren't "dual roles" - they are the same role, because the Catholic church is so strongly in support of evolution.

In Christ-

Papias
P. S. I still haven't heard you explain interlocking complexity, nor respond to the Methodist statement on evolution that I posted above.
 
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Deadworm

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Papias: "Because there are no phenomenon like that. Every time some are proposed, and tested, they are found to be simple chance - and more often, parlor tricks. Science has been testing these kinds of things for literally 200 years."

Again, you are just confirming your myopic bias and your ignorance of Sheldrake's research. Therefore, I take back my promise to review the sources you post, until you show good faith in viewing mine. I will postpone engaging you on this question until I post more of my many premonitions which cannot to attributed to chance. My premonitions always prove to be accurate. Over the next few weeks, monitor my new thread, "The Spirituality of Premonitions," in the Spiritual Gifts section and offer your evaluations of my paranormal experiences. But wait until I post 4-5 examples.
 
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HI deadworm,

You wrote:
Intelligent Design advocates need to admit that they lack a comprehensive alternative theory to offer the education system.

But it isn't my job or responsibility to offer up what someone else might consider a 'comprehensive alternative theory'. My one and only job, as regards the things I do with the knowledge, grace and mercy that God has offered me through the Scriptures is to believe them. I further know, by testimony of the Scriptures, that spiritual things can only be discerned by using the resource of the Holy Spirit. So, the first thing I am cautioned to do is to test the spirit. Is the knowledge this person proclaiming, knowledge that comes from the Spirit of God or some other spirit. The revelation tells us that after his fight against Israel and losing, that Satan has turned his full attention on those who trust and believe God. Now, in my understanding, what better way could Satan cause believers to question their faith in the truth, than by making the whole world believe something that isn't true and working their darndest to make sure that everyone is given ample evidence, by their own measure, to make it seem plausible to question that faith? What a brilliant plan! Satan encourages by his spirit many, many people to throw into doubt that we should believe the simple truth of the Scriptures as written. It's exactly what he did with Eve. He prompted her to question the truth of what God said. She fell. I think the Scriptures are also clear on the point that the evidence against God will be so overwhelming that even the elect are subject to such falling.

So, the question for me is always what am I to believe? The wisdom of man '666' or the wisdom of God? What evidence should I consider to be the truth? The evidence that comes from man '666' or the evidence that comes from God? Speaking only for myself, God has made it clear to me that He created this realm in 6 real days of approximately 24 hours as we count days today. That each one of them consisted of a day with an evening and morning just like each day consists of today. He then repeated that claim in other places of the Scriptures. God has also made it clear that He made the first man, Adam, from mere dirt and then created Eve beginning with a rib from Adam's side to show that the woman was fashioned from the man.

Now, each one is free to follow whatever they believe to be the truth, but for me, I'm going with God's testimony. Despite the great and supposedly wise testimony of the scientific minds of men - I'm going with God. Despite all seemingly good evidence offered up by men with far greater minds than my own - I'm going with God. I know that man's heart is wicked. Who can know it? I know that man's understanding of the things of God, without the indwelling Spirit of God, is empty understanding. I know that Satan is trying his very, very best to try and cause the faith of even the most righteous to stumble. Knowing all of this, why would I believe the new and improved scientific understandings and 'truths' of men to necessarily lead to the truth? Mankind is so easily turned away. Eve did it in a moment. The Scriptures call for a steadfast and firm faith. I'm seeking after that. Everyone else will just have to follow what they believe in their heart to be the truth supported by what they believe in their heart to be good evidence. I'm going with God's testimony.

I understand that we live in a created realm. An existence that was merely spoken by God to exist in a beginning form as we see it today. I understand that God created a planet that He called earth and formed it and filled it with all that would be necessary for a creature that He would soon make called man. I understand that God merely spoke the universe surrounding that singular planet earth, to be filled with a myriad of stars and asteroids and comets and on the day that God commanded them to exist they all came forth pretty much just as they are today. I also understand that a day is coming when God is going to bring this existence that we know today to an end and will judge all mankind and then begins the eternal life for which God first created man. I believe and fully understand that God is working out a very, very great plan in which His ultimate goal is to live eternally with those whom He has created in a loving and trusting relationship forever and ever and ever. That this ultimate goal includes not only this realm in which we live, but also the angelic realm.

So, I'm willing to listen to all the great and mighty theories supported by the great and mighty scientific minds of man. But ultimately, I'm sticking with what God has said. For in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Every rock, every tree. Every planet, every star. All that is in both heaven and earth God created in six days. I fully understand and appreciate that Satan is prowling like a lion seeing whom he may devour. I fully understand and appreciate that the days of Satan's struggle against Israel is now over and that he is doing his very, very best now to deceive those who believe the testimony of God and Jesus. I fully understand and appreciate, based on how he coerced Eve, that his greatest weapon is to cause all of us to question what God has really said. That's exactly what our perceived great and wise understanding of the natural properties of things through science helps Satan to do.

Let's face it. The bottom line of all these scientific understandings and findings is causing men to say to themselves, "The simple truth of what God has written cannot possibly be the truth. We now know better than those foolish, uneducated ancient peoples. We're so much smarter than them." And Satan laughs all the way to the bank.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Speedwell

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Let's face it. The bottom line of all these scientific understandings and findings is causing men to say to themselves, "The simple truth of what God has written cannot possibly be the truth. We now know better than those foolish, uneducated ancient peoples. We're so much smarter than them." And Satan laughs all the way to the bank.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

No, it causes thoughtful men to say to themselves, "These ancient peoples did not know much about science but they knew God, so we should pay heed to what they had to say about it."

Would that not be better than trying use their words to calculate the age of the Earth or the extent of prehistoric floods, and then being uncivil to those who disagree with them about it?
 
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miamited

Ted
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No, it causes thoughtful men to say to themselves, "These ancient peoples did not know much about science but they knew God, so we should pay heed to what they had to say about it."

Would that not be better than trying use their words to calculate the age of the Earth or the extent of prehistoric floods, and then being uncivil to those who disagree with them about it?

Hi speedwell,

What ancient men are you referring to? If their words do provide a calculation for the age of the earth and they are included in the Scriptures, what assurance can you give that that isn't exactly why they were written to us?

What if you're wrong and the very purpose for which God caused through His Spirit to be written the age of a father when he had a certain son and then give that son's age when he had a son followed by that son's age when he had a son followed by that son's age when he had a son was for the very purpose of adding up the ages. Come let us reason together. If all that God wanted to impress upon us was the lineage of men to the birth of His Son, which is what Matthew did, then the account would likely have been written just as Matthew wrote it. Adam had a son named Seth who had a son named, etc... Is it really your contention that through two genealogies covering a couple of dozen generations that all the age information was just superfluous filler to make the Scriptures longer and more arduous to read?

Is it at all possible that God knows the end from the beginning just as He says He does. That He knew before He spoke the first, "Let there be..." that a day would come when men would deny the power and glory and wisdom of God by denying the work He did that we might even have a place to live. In order to do provide this evidence that faithful children of God might know the truth and not be deceived by Satan's wiles as Eve was, He caused to be written the years of age for the very purpose that we might know with certainty approximately how long the universe has existed? None of that is possible?

Finally, I'd like you to define 'uncivil' is that just the same thing as being in disagreement with? Otherwise, I can't imagine that you were referring to my post. I didn't call anyone names or shout in anger. I allowed that each one could believe as they would. I'm just curious what you found 'uncivil' in my response if that was the purpose of your responding with my quoted post as your starting point.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Speedwell

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Hi speedwell,

What ancient men are you referring to? If their words do provide a calculation for the age of the earth and they are included in the Scriptures, what assurance can you give that that isn't exactly why they were written to us?

None whatever, except that it seems neither likely nor necessary to me.



Finally, I'd like you to define 'uncivil' is that just the same thing as being in disagreement with? Otherwise, I can't imagine that you were referring to my post. I didn't call anyone names or shout in anger. I allowed that each one could believe as they would. I'm just curious what you found 'uncivil' in my response if that was the purpose of your responding with my quoted post as your starting point.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Not you personally, of course, but if you spend any time at all in this forum you will be aware that very often any criticism of YECism (even reasonable criticism from other Christians) or the arguments used to support it are summarily rejected as an attack on Christianity itself by Bible-hating atheists. Accusations of lying and conspiracy are rampant.

It makes me, as a Christian, wonder what exactly is being defended so vociferously, and I can get no clear answer about it.
 
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miamited

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None whatever, except that it seems neither likely nor necessary to me.




Not you personally, of course, but if you spend any time at all in this forum you will be aware that very often any criticism of YECism (even reasonable criticism from other Christians) or the arguments used to support it are summarily rejected as an attack on Christianity itself by Bible-hating atheists. Accusations of lying and conspiracy are rampant.

It makes me, as a Christian, wonder what exactly is being defended so vociferously, and I can get no clear answer about it.

Hi speedwell,

Well, I'm just asking to bring about some thoughtful consideration. If there is a possibility that the ages of the fathers when the sons were born is there for that specific reason, would one be doing what Paul encouraged us to do - study to show ourselves approved - if we don't use the writings for that purpose?

I can tell you why I am a defender of young earth creationism, I am firmly convicted and believe that it is the truth.

The Scriptures tell us in three places that God says He created this realm in 6 days. Each day consisting of an evening and a morning just exactly like each day that passes today in the year 2016. I am now 60 years old and every day that I have lived in those 60 years has been a day with one evening and one morning contained in it. The Scriptures also tell us that on the sixth day He created the first man, according to Jesus, Adam. Then the Scriptures begin to delineate a genealogical chain of ages by which, by simple addition, we can add up those years. If we believe the first two claims - that God created this realm in 6 days of evenings and mornings and that on the sixth of those days God created the first man, Adam, then we can have a fairly accurate accounting of the age of this created realm.

Frankly, unless someone can give me some reasonable other reason for why the Scriptures were written as they were, I'm firmly convicted that they were written with this information for the very purpose that born again believers, who have the Spirit of God through whom they discern truth and wisdom of spiritual things, can know that men are liars. They don't mean to be, of course. They think that by their great wisdom they have discerned the truth - but it just isn't.

Now, you don't think that such an exercise is particularly useful. I've shared with a lot of people like you and I've heard that complaint many, many times. But there's this gnawing in my spirit that I shouldn't trust what is or isn't important on what men say. Rather, I should trust that God has told me the truth and the reason He gave for Abraham being declared righteous was that he believed God. What do you think? Is it important to God that we believe Him?

I asked you in the previous post if you could give me any assurance that your understanding of the reason or purpose that the ages are given in the genealogical record could be confirmed. You said no. So, I'll ask you another. Can you give me any confirmation or assurance that it doesn't matter to God that we believe Him? Can you give me any assurance that God doesn't care whether I believe that He created this realm in 6 days. Can you give me any assurance that God doesn't care whether I believe this realm is 4.3 billion years old according to the knowledge and wisdom of men or more like 6,000 years based on the, seemingly clear to me, evidence that the Scriptures say so repeatedly?

Jesus said that the job of the Holy Spirit was to lead those who were so born into all truth. To convict of sin and righteousness. That spiritual things are only made known by the Spirit. Why shouldn't I believe God over man? Can you give me any assurance that what we believe about the whole of the Scriptures isn't going to be important in God's determination of who is the faithful and true servant?

Just questions to consider.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Deadworm

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I think Papias is a good person and eagerly wants us to embrace traditional evolutionary theory as it is. To me, it all boils down to what can reasonably be attributed to chance working through random selection and genetic mutation. For now, I'm convinced that "interlocking complexity" requires more than chance--additional "magic." Papias has evidently not viewed the online videos in which Sheldrake celebrates all the well replicated research that seems to refute the standard claim that the mind is a function of the brain and supports the idea the mind exists independently of time and space and uses the brain as a a kind of transmitter. That is turn suggests that the ground of consciousness may be an underlying aspect of the universe and that its unknown laws play an essential role in the evolution of new species and the interplay of the energetics of "interlocking complexity."

He is apparently ignorant of all the well documented and replicated research on ESP and displays ignorance of the Sheldrake videos that discuss this in detail. But I'm not interested in scoring debating points with him. The real issue is the question of when we attribute unreasonable engineering to chance. Now Papias imagines that premonitions can be chalked up to chance. And here he is decisively refuted by Dossey and Sheldrake. I plan to discuss this claim in my "The Spirituality of Premonitions" thread, but first I want him and others to read all my premonition experiences and see if they can honestly chalk them up to mere coincidence and chance. I want to practice what I preach. so I will read and research the articles he cited for me after I complete my thread on Spiritual Gifts.
 
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classicalhero

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I recently watched this YouTube video of cell biologist Kenneth Miller's lecture at Yale. It is the most stimulating lecture I have ever heard online. It has the potential to elevate the level of dialogue created by the God and evolution thread. Among other things, it has prompted me to rethink (not reject) Behe's argument for irreducible complexity/ Against Behe, Miller cites on 20 published studies on the possible evolution of the flagellum :"machine." I say "rethink" because I'd need to know more about the detailed arguments of theses studies (which Behe rejects) before finalizing my conclusion.
The bit in bold shows that he wasn't being scientific in his talk. That is not a word that should ever be used in a scientific talk.
 
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Speedwell

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Can you give me any assurance that God doesn't care whether I believe this realm is 4.3 billion years old according to the knowledge and wisdom of men or more like 6,000 years based on the, seemingly clear to me, evidence that the Scriptures say so repeatedly?
The Scriptures nowhere state the age of the Earth, much less "say so repeatedly." To arrive at the 6000 year figure a calculation has to be made which is based on extraneous assumptions, some of them dubious. So I would have to say that Got does not seem much concerned about how old we think the universe is.
Can you give me any assurance that what we believe about the whole of the Scriptures isn't going to be important in God's determination of who is the faithful and true servant?
]
My take on it is, if it was a belief essential to our salvation it would have found its way into one or more of the Ecumenical Creeds.
 
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The Scriptures nowhere state the age of the Earth, much less "say so repeatedly." To arrive at the 6000 year figure a calculation has to be made which is based on extraneous assumptions, some of them dubious. So I would have to say that Got does not seem much concerned about how old we think the universe is.
]
My take on it is, if it was a belief essential to our salvation it would have found its way into one or more of the Ecumenical Creeds.

Hi speedwell,

I didn't say the Scriptures ever stated the age of the earth or that that information was repeated. What I said was that the six days of creation was repeated 3 times in the Scriptures. To arrive at the approximate age of the earth all you need to do is add some numbers, all of which are in the Scriptures.

You know, friend, Daniel was given a great prophecy. It stated that there would be 7 sevens and 62 sevens. Unfortunately, likely because of folks who thought like you that we shouldn't add up numbers in the Scriptures, Jesus seemed to be disappointed that Israel didn't know when and wasn't expecting his visitation.

You see, to have known about the time to have expected Jesus, all one had to do was know when the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued and count out 483 years from that date and Isreal should have been greatly excited and expectant of Jesus. But they weren't. The angel Gabriel clearly told Daniel that this would be the time when Messiah would come.

This isn't the first time that I've been told that the numbers aren't there for us to add up, but honestly I can't think of any other reason they are there. I'm all ears if you want to tell me.


God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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"The Pentateuch is a composite of various sources. The Priestly Creation story from what is usually designated the P source (Genesis 1:1-2:4a) is spliced together with the Jahwist Creation story from the source usually designated J. According to most scholars, the Priestly creation story was poetically written to be responsively recited in the Temple liturgy. Hence, the liturgical repetition of the phrases, "And God said...and it was so...And God saw that it was good...Evening came, morning followed the first (second, third, etc.) day." The purpose was to celebrate the glory of God's creation and to justify Sabbath rest. Notice carefully that the narration never says, "Evening came, morning followed, the seventh day." The apparent reason for this is that the author believed we are still in the seventh day; and that in turn means that each "day" is not literally a 24 hour day, but a whole creation age. Indeed, the Hebrew "yom" for "day" does not always need to be translated a literal day.

Notice too how the poetry uses the outdated model of the universe to express the equivalent of the Big Bang:

"in the beginning when God created the heaven and the earth, the earth as a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters (= the void of outer space). Then God said, "Let there be light, and there was light (Genesis 1:1-3)."

When ancient Hebrews refer to the "waters," this is their term for the void of space. In their view, these waters (the void) are separated from our sky by a "dome." So when we are told that the "the wind of God moved over the face of the waters," we are in effect being told that our universe began with great movement or force in space, unleashing light and starting the process in which God brought order out of primordial chaos (expressed by the phrase "without form and void").

Of course, in modern cosmology, the Big Bang doesn't move into space and time; it creates both. so that it is meaningless to ask what existed before the Big Bang. All we can say is that the Big Bang produced something from nothing, movement from no movement,and time from no time.

Notice, too, that the sequence of creation roughly follows the order taught by evolutionary theory; i. e. life begins in the sea and mammals are later creations, eventually leading to the creation of humans. Notice, too, that this creation story, unlike the subsequent story of Adam and Eve, says nothing about how God created animal life. [See my earlier commentary on this thread on how the creation theology of Proverbs 8 treats creation as Lady Wisdom's divine play--the ancient equivalent of saying that life was created through the processes of Mother Nature ordained by God.]
 
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