Kansas town in uproar over removal of Jesus painting from public middle school

[muichimotsu]

...but the cultural regard for religion is my point.

In the US, we're told by many on the left that the reason that we had laws prohibiting abortion, same sex marriage, marijuana use, etc... is because we don't adequately enforce the concept of "separation of church and state", and when going on their conquest to attempt to remedy that, they immediately turn their attention to crosses, Jesus pics, and nativity scenes. By giving the EU & UK examples, I was just merely pointing out that spending time focusing on inanimate objects might be a waste of their time since the UK-style of legislation and social policy seems to be exactly what they want, and the UK doesn't have any sort of separation...and they still allow nativity plays in schools, religious iconography on public property, etc...

The claim many in this thread are making is that they have a fear that a Picture in a hallway is a slippery slope into indoctrination. In all actuality, the main "offenders" in terms of indoctrination are parents. Nearly 70% of people end up being part of the same religion as their parents.

If secular activists are so worried about Children being coerced into religion, they should know that the childrens' parents are the ones who are doing that, not a picture on a wall.

The fact is, a great deal of teh motivations for such repressive laws are religious in nature, though not all of them. That's the motivation for that attitude, but it isn't something exclusive to the left, technically speaking. We can't reduce this purely to people wanting to give government more power, when secularism is as much about keeping people free of unnecessary government intervention, which can manifest in many ways apart from policy in an explicit manner.

Slippery slope is the term you used, I didn't say it constituted indoctrination by any stretch: I said it was entanglement in religion that was unnecessary to context

Children aren't solely influenced by their parents in making choices about religion: most of my apostasy was because of educators and general education that I got, not anything from my parents, who probably would've preferred that I still be Christian, even nominally, instead of outright nontheist and even clashing with relatives on rare occasion when it comes to such issues, though it's mostly on one side of the family that is more obnoxious about it.

 

[muichimotsu]

Everyone who lived in the US at it's founding was a Christian. 78% of people in America claim to be Christian.

What rightfully justifies taking down every single iconic symbol of Christianity?

Even if every founder was Christian, the degree of devotion and presence they thought were needed in government buildings and the like probably is not absolutely consistent.

Majority position doesn't grant a special treatment of that group, it just means they tend to hold more voting power if they actually utilize it.But that doesn't mean they get to trample on the rights of the minority to be free of invasive government policy that insists on one religion over others or government practices that create that privileged status and maintain it as the status quo.

 

[muichimotsu]

So given your stance on that, am I correct in assuming that you disagree with the stance of the Jewish Anti Defamation League on that one? Because, I think you and I can both agree, claiming that a Menorah holds a secular value is a bit of a stretch on their part.

Honestly, Judaism is a liminal example, because being Jewish is not strictly a matter of just culture or religion, though it can be. A menorah can be said to be secular in the sense of reflecting a cultural identity, unlike a cross from Christianity, which represents a spiritual attitude more than some ethnicity and shared community that is associated with the menorah.

Just because I think a picture of Jesus reflects a more religious perspective doesn't mean I automatically generalize all religions in that sense: Judaism is just one example, even Buddhism and Confucianism have schools of thought that are more philosophical than religious.

 

[Armoured]

Everyone who lived in the US at it's founding was a Christian. 78% of people in America claim to be Christian.

Wow. Just wow.

All the same denomination, too, I guess? Is this another of those "facts" that's just "obvious"?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Wow. Just wow.

All the same denomination, too, I guess? Is this another of those "facts" that's just "obvious"?

I love how they use the 3/4's statistic when it suits them (like when they want to justify their special place in America) but immediately drop it and consider most of those Christians to not be 'real' Christians like they are, because they support things like SSM or are pro-choice or they're communists for wanting to use taxes to fund social safety net programs.

 

[Armoured]

I love how they use the 3/4's statistic when it suits them (like when they want to justify their special place in America) but immediately drop it and consider most of those Christians to not be 'real' Christians like they are, because they support things like SSM or are pro-choice or they're communists for wanting to use taxes to fund social safety net programs.

Indeed.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I love how they use the 3/4's statistic when it suits them (like when they want to justify their special place in America) but immediately drop it and consider most of those Christians to not be 'real' Christians like they are, because they support things like SSM or are pro-choice or they're communists for wanting to use taxes to fund social safety net programs.

Atheists, anti-theists, deists, and agnostics all group together, why can't Baptists and Presbyterians?
The fact is that they have the same worldview, and all over again you all are just making another ridiculous argument.

Being that 78% identify as Christian, they would not mind a picture of Jesus on the wall. How convicted of a Christian they are is beside the point.
Actually, I have no doubt in my mind that there are a lot of liberal Christians out there who'd have a problem with Jesus on the wall, just granted by how liberalism tends to come before their religion.

 

[Armoured]

Atheists, anti-theists, deists, and agnostics all group together, why can't Baptists and Presbyterians?
The fact is that they have the same worldview, and all over again you all are just making another ridiculous argument.

Being that 78% identify as Christian, they would not mind a picture of Jesus on the wall. How convicted of a Christian they are is beside the point.
Actually, I have no doubt in my mind that there are a lot of liberal Christians out there who'd have a problem with Jesus on the wall, just granted by how liberalism tends to come before their religion.

That's not accurate, either. I'm a Christian, and I have a problem with such a picture being on the wall in a public school.

But even if you were correct, and 78% didn't mind, that leaves 22% who potentially DO mind, and the whole point of having rule of law is to protect the rights of people, especially when they may otherwise be bullied by the majority.

I'm not a "liberal" either. You may like to look up what that word means. It's not an epithet for people who disagree with you.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

But even if you were correct, and 78% didn't mind, that leaves 22% who potentially DO mind, and the whole point of having rule of law is to protect the rights of people, especially when they may otherwise be bullied by the majority.

There is no law stating that a picture must be taken down if 1/5 of the 1 out of nearly 4 people don't like it. I wonder if I could count the number on my hands and toes at this school who were 'offended' by the picture. And by offended I mean just starting trouble- it's impossible for someone to be offended by something they don't believe exists.
What about the hundreds others who were actually offended by having their religion smeared?

The only ones doing any of the bullying are the ones doing these things. This isn't done to Muslims because unlike Christians they will scorch earth for it, and that is the textbook way in which bullying works- plowing the mild.

 

[Armoured]

There is no law stating that a picture must be taken down if 1/5 of the 1 out of nearly 4 people don't like it. I wonder if I could count the number on my hands and toes at this school were offended by the picture.
What about the hundreds others who were offended by having their religion smeared?

There is such a law. It's called the separation clause.

How is taking it down "smearing" anyone's religion?

The only ones doing any of the bullying are the ones doing these things. This isn't done to Muslims because unlike Christians they will scorch earth for it, and that is the textbook way in which bullying works- plowing the mild.

Except exactly the same thing has been done to Muslims. Exactly the same thing should be done to anyone who tries to use public utilities as a soap box for their religion. It's not bullying being a minority asking for equal treatment. It's called "justice". There's another term you may like to look up. Americans are traditionally in favour of it.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

There is such a law. It's called the separation clause.

Yeah, why don't you take a look at it and realize there isn't.

Atheists are trying to have a full blown iconoclast on all public places, for reasons synonymous to these people here, who tried to get an atheist monument across the street from a building with a theist monument:

I don't need to convince anyone of the true motive of the atheist agenda, because everyone already knows what it is. People who think otherwise are being fooled- your argument is just one pulling the wool over others eyes. And honestly, it's in my opinion that Christians who support an idea of taking down Christian objects are just victims of Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Armoured]

Yeah, why don't you take a look at it and realize there isn't.

Atheists are trying to have a full blown iconoclast on all public places, for reasons synonymous to these people here, who tried to get an atheist monument across the street from a building with a theist monument:

I don't need to convince anyone of the true motive of the atheist agenda, because everyone already knows what it is. People who think otherwise are being fooled- your argument is just one pulling the wool over others eyes. And honestly, it's in my opinion that Christians who support an idea of taking down Christian objects are just victims of Stockholm syndrome.

If you get to have a monument to your religion on public grounds, why SHOULDN'T atheists have one to theirs? Or Buddhists, or Muslims, or Hindus or whatever? Either everyone should be allowed or no one should. I faviour "no one" as it's the simpler option.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

If you get to have a monument to your religion on public grounds, why SHOULDN'T atheists have one to theirs? Or Buddhists, or Muslims, or Hindus or whatever? Either everyone should be allowed or no one should. I faviour "no one" as it's the simpler option.

Or, atheist society could stop being little girls and get on with their life. Stop pretending like a picture of Jesus offends them. All the atheists before little over the past decade did it flawlessly- because that's what rational, normal people do.

 

[Armoured]

Or, atheist society could stop being little girls and get on with their life. Stop pretending like a picture of Jesus offends them. All the atheists before little over the past decade did it flawlessly- because that's what rational, normal people do.

And the black people should just shut up and sit in the back of the bus.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

And the black people should just shut up and sit in the back of the bus.

Typical. Why not bring up Hitler
If the bus is a picture, and they have to sit behind it, sure. It's a picture.

It's funny how the one age where there's virtually zero persecution of atheism is where atheists have decided they are persecuted.

 

[Armoured]

Typical. Why not bring up Hitler
If the bus is a picture, and they have to sit behind it, sure. It's a picture.

It's funny how the one age where there's virtually zero persecution of atheism is where atheists have decided they are persecuted.

It's exactly the same argument as the one you just used. "why can't they just deal with being second class and shut up about it, like they used to?"

I've already agreed elsewhere in the thread that this SPECIFIC case is fairly petty. But as an element of a larger paradigm, I see why they get upset.

Given that Christians are supposed to be all about treating others as we would want to be treated, you may like to give some thought to how you would feel in their place.

Or you could just rant some more about atheist/feminist/homosexual agendas. You know, whatever makes you feel better about the fact that society isn't static and the Golden Age depicted in Happy Days is never coming back.

 

[Armoured]

Or, atheist society could stop being little girls and get on with their life. Stop pretending like a picture of Jesus offends them. All the atheists before little over the past decade did it flawlessly- because that's what rational, normal people do.

I took my daughter to the park a couple of hours ago. While I was out the mind blowing hypocrisy of this statement finally clicked home and I've been wanting to comment ever since.

Atheists should "stop being little girls and get on with their life", yet Christians get to kick and squeal when a picture that shouldn't even be there is taken down?

Serious question, can anyone honestly read that sentence and not be staggered by the double standard?

 

[Supreme]

Something can have meaning without religion being it. In fact things without religion tend to have more meaning than those with it.

I disagree with your second comment, but I do agree that art can have secular meaning. It just so happens that a lot of it has religious meaning.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Or, atheist society could stop being little girls and get on with their life. Stop pretending like a picture of Jesus offends them. All the atheists before little over the past decade did it flawlessly- because that's what rational, normal people do.

Davian recently posted this:

 

[Armoured]

Davian recently posted this:

<1000 words.