Judging ...

[IreneAdler]

but even good Christians fall away, that doesn't nullify who they are... I think people can't take the bible as black and white. I think there are so many shades of gray and one book cannot cover all situations explicitly enough to be taken as "clear" on all issues.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

But ultimately we will know them by their fruits. the person who thinks the veg will grow in his gut is showing innocent ignorance that harms no one. the fruit isn't good, but it's not evil either. so we've always got to get back to the fruit in a person's life.

But other than the kid (and he may not really know either) nobody really knows everything that went into him choosing to act a certain way or not act a certain way.

We can judge the action. We can say things like "Choosing not to eat vegetables is unhealthy". But until a person has the ability to read minds and feel everything that others feel he/she cannot accurately judge the actor.

Morality is about what people choose to do with their free will. If Person A regularly has the urge to punch people in the face while Person B occasionally has such an urge and Person C never has such an urge, how can a fourth person accurately, in a moral sense, judge any of them based on the fact that none of them has punched anybody in the face? Person C never really made much of a choice to not act a certain way--he never even had the urge to act that way. Meanwhile, Person A has done more good than Person B--he has resisted doing something wrong more times. Nobody other than each of those individuals really knows how good they have done because only they know what their decision-making processes were and what material they had to work with.

Even if we could accurately judge a person would it make that big of a difference in the big picture? People might get treated better--that kid may be spared the psychological damage of being told by his parents that he is stubborn and immature--and we might realize a better sense of justice when people do wrong--we might sleep better knowing that the punishment fit the crime. Accountability might be better and people, therefore, might see the immorality of their actions more clearly. But people would still have free will and could still continue to do bad.

If we want more good in the world then I would say that the way to realize that is for individuals to spend more time learning about their own selves and how they can make better choices and less time trying to assign value to the moral character of others based on final outcomes when we know very little about the antecedents of those outcomes. In other words, the way to more good is for each individual to focus on what he/she knows the most about and has the most control over: him/herself.

 

[TanteBelle]

My devotional today (from My Utmost) was one of the most convicting I've read in a while. The question in the second paragraph really floored me ...


Romans 2:1 says that the one who criticizes another is guilty of the very same thing. God looks not only at the act itself, but also at the possibility of committing it, which He sees by looking at our hearts ... Do we really believe the statement that says we criticize in others the very things we are guilty of ourselves? The reason we see hypocrisy, deceit, and a lack of genuineness in others is that they are all in our own hearts. The greatest characteristic of a saint is humility, as evidenced by being able to say honestly and humbly, “Yes, all those, as well as other evils, would have been exhibited in me if it were not for the grace of God. Therefore, I have no right to judge.”

Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged” // Matthew 7:1. He went on to say, in effect, “If you do judge, you will be judged in exactly the same way.” Who of us would dare to stand before God and say, “My God, judge me as I have judged others”? We have judged others as sinners ... if God should judge us in the same way, we would be condemned to hell. Yet God judges us on the basis of the miraculous atonement by the Cross of Christ.

I agree with one point and disagree with others. I agree that if we judge someone when we ourselves are doing the very same thing, then we receive the greater condemnation. We are perfect hypocrites! 'Judge not and ye shall not be judged' is not saying, 'Don't judge at all!' It's saying, 'If you don't judge others, you won't be judged by others.' It's an obvious statement. But if you're judging someone and you are doing the same thing, expect to be judged back even more harshly!
However, this whole thing about 'Don't judge me' is so unBiblical and twisted around merely to create excuses for ourselves. Fact, we are told to judge! That is scriptural! The very first thing Yeshua mentioned as being the greater issues of God's laws was judgement! What is judgement? Most folks have blurred the line between the word 'judgement' and the word 'condemning'. We can judge, but we aren't the ones to condemn! 'Judgement' holds hands with 'discernment' and 'justice'! If we don't judge, how do we know right from wrong? How do we evalute something as being good or bad? Fact, we NEED judgement! To stand before a judge and say, 'Don't judge me! Who are you to judge me!?', well, it won't go down well and won't get you very far. However, by judging something, we learn how to discern. That is wisdom. Knowing how to discern right from wrong and act it out but that takes making a judgement first. And yes, judgement can happen between believers.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

This passage is so misunderstood and is translated in the most extrordinary ways when in fact, it's quite simple. Read the passage as it says. The word 'is' is Italisized because it wasn't there in the original translation. What the passage is saying is, 'Let no man judge you ...... but the body of Messiah.' 'But' is a contrary word. It puts an exception in the equation. 'Let no man ...... but'. If there wasn't mean to be an exception, it would have used words like 'for' or 'because'. But the word 'but' is there for a reason! And by what measure are the body of Messiah to judge? The word of God alone. Therefore, to receive a judgement by the body is not being judged by man but by the word of God. Judgement is a necessity to life as well as to faith!

And also, we are not judged by whether or not we believe in Yeshua because scripture makes it clear over and over again that we are judged by our works. Because it's our works that determine what our faith really is. That famous saying that says, 'Talk's cheap but actions speak' is great and famous for a very good reason. We can talk all we want about faith but at the end of the day, it's not what you say that determines what you believe but what you act out. Yep, we're suppose to be walking billboards for God! Yes, God does look at our hearts as well which is how God knew that although David sinned, he was still a man after God's heart. But that was also through David's actions. We all know the passage that reads, 'Faith without works is dead'.

 

[TanteBelle]

Morality is about what people choose to do with their free will. If Person A regularly has the urge to punch people in the face while Person B occasionally has such an urge and Person C never has such an urge, how can a fourth person accurately, in a moral sense, judge any of them based on the fact that none of them has punched anybody in the face? Person C never really made much of a choice to not act a certain way--he never even had the urge to act that way. Meanwhile, Person A has done more good than Person B--he has resisted doing something wrong more times. Nobody other than each of those individuals really knows how good they have done because only they know what their decision-making processes were and what material they had to work with.

I'd say that morality is an issue of faith. I know folks don't like me saying this but that's where torah comes in. Because God laid out morality from the beginning to try help us be better and live together better. Throw God out and you've thrown morality out. Throw torah out and you've thrown a lot of morality out! Yeah, we do have free will. But free will doesn't mean that we are free of the consequences of our own will. At the end of the day, God owns the universe and God has the universe running according to His rules. You were created under His rules and you live under His rules. You can break outside of that, but rebellion to that has consequences.

Even if we could accurately judge a person would it make that big of a difference in the big picture? People might get treated better--that kid may be spared the psychological damage of being told by his parents that he is stubborn and immature--and we might realize a better sense of justice when people do wrong--we might sleep better knowing that the punishment fit the crime. Accountability might be better and people, therefore, might see the immorality of their actions more clearly. But people would still have free will and could still continue to do bad.

We only judge by the word of God. If you're judging someone based upon your own thinking or your own definition of morality, unless you are unknowingly in alignment with God, you are judging unjustly.