Judging ...

[Rose of Eden]

My devotional today (from My Utmost) was one of the most convicting I've read in a while. The question in the second paragraph really floored me ...


Romans 2:1 says that the one who criticizes another is guilty of the very same thing. God looks not only at the act itself, but also at the possibility of committing it, which He sees by looking at our hearts ... Do we really believe the statement that says we criticize in others the very things we are guilty of ourselves? The reason we see hypocrisy, deceit, and a lack of genuineness in others is that they are all in our own hearts. The greatest characteristic of a saint is humility, as evidenced by being able to say honestly and humbly, “Yes, all those, as well as other evils, would have been exhibited in me if it were not for the grace of God. Therefore, I have no right to judge.”

Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged” // Matthew 7:1. He went on to say, in effect, “If you do judge, you will be judged in exactly the same way.” Who of us would dare to stand before God and say, “My God, judge me as I have judged others”? We have judged others as sinners ... if God should judge us in the same way, we would be condemned to hell. Yet God judges us on the basis of the miraculous atonement by the Cross of Christ.

Thanks so much for this, Derrick! It really floored, convicted, and humbled me too! Thank God for the love and blood of Jesus Christ!

 

[BondiHarry]

Thanks!

I think you're misunderstanding what the scripture is saying because the message you are presenting in this thread, that we are to be humble and NOT JUDGE conflicts with numerous commands that God gives us.

If we have come to the Lord we are no longer our own but we belong to God. Our bodies are His temple and He now dwells within us and He is changing us, the heart of stone we had when we were sinners is being replaced with a Godly heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26), He is renewing our minds (Romans 12:2) and cleansing us of our unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). We are no longer the carnal, hypocritical man who judges not knowing the wisdom of God but a man of God, guided by the Holy Spirit and as such a man we will judge all things (1 Corinthians 2:15).

We are specifically commanded to judge

-ourselves: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

-the things of this life and even angels: Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:3)

-our brothers/sisters: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Corinthians 5:11). Note- the Christian of sound judgment does not judge by appearances but judges righteous judgment (John 7:24)

-our teachers: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (Matthew 7:15)

The true Christian is called by God to judge and through God's control of our lives can judge righteously. If we are truly one of God's children, by His hand we will have removed the beam that blinded our carnal eyes so that we can see clearly to remove the mote from another's eye (Matthew 7:5).

Revived, you seem to be suggesting we should not judge at all and that, as the Bible demonstrates through the scripture I've shown, is not true. If you are suggesting we should not judge when we still have a big ole beam in our eyes you are correct ... and we should be about the business of removing that beam.

 

[Revived]

Are you aware that I didn't write the OP? It was written by Oswald Chambers. By the way, this thread was not intended to be a theological debate.

 

[Evie1980]

Interesting thread. I enjoy Oswald Chamber's writing and a quick glance at my own life can see how I could easily adapt this into my own life and how it would help me. I am quick to judge other's sins. It is easy to see sin manifest in another person yet harder to see the root cause of it. I can sometimes even use righteousness to justify my harsh judgements of others. It is easy to see sin as a 2 dimensional (thoughts and action) thing when really it is 3 dimensional (heart, thoughts, actions).

It is the heart of the matter that I believe Mr. Chambers is talking about. He is not talking about the different types of sin people commit. I can easily be judged for my own sins. I could write a list and you could compare yourself to me. You might think you look great compared to me. You most probably do. The point is that you will never know how I struggled through it all. C.S. Lewis talks about sin (I think in Mere Christianity but I could be wrong) and how easy it is to judge others sins when we ourselves don't struggle with it. I am an ex-smoker. I always will be. I still struggle with it after 5 years. Some days I like the smell of cigarette smoke. In the right circumstances I even crave it. Yet, I have a Christian friend who openly condemns it and makes rude comments about it. She is right that it is vile and a bad habbit but as she never has had to deal with the heart of the issue (addiction, desire, cravings etc). She is quick to judge but is she right in her judgement?

I know this maybe over simplifying a complex matter. Sin is complex. This is just my honest opinion on it.

Blessings

 

[Revived]

Interesting thread. I enjoy Oswald Chamber's writing and a quick glance at my own life can see how I could easily adapt this into my own life and how it would help me. I am quick to judge other's sins. It is easy to see sin manifest in another person yet harder to see the root cause of it. I can sometimes even use righteousness to justify my harsh judgements of others. It is easy to see sin as a 2 dimensional (thoughts and action) thing when really it is 3 dimensional (heart, thoughts, actions).

It is the heart of the matter that I believe Mr. Chambers is talking about. He is not talking about the different types of sin people commit. I can easily be judged for my own sins. I could write a list and you could compare yourself to me. You might think you look great compared to me. You most probably do. The point is that you will never know how I struggled through it all. C.S. Lewis talks about sin (I think in Mere Christianity but I could be wrong) and how easy it is to judge others sins when we ourselves don't struggle with it. I am an ex-smoker. I always will be. I still struggle with it after 5 years. Some days I like the smell of cigarette smoke. In the right circumstances I even crave it. Yet, I have a Christian friend who openly condemns it and makes rude comments about it. She is right that it is vile and a bad habit but as she never has had to deal with the heart of the issue (addiction, desire, cravings etc). She is quick to judge but is she right in her judgement?

I know this maybe over simplifying a complex matter. Sin is complex. This is just my honest opinion on it.

Blessings

Thank you Evie. And you touched on the way I feel about this issue/principle. It's a rather simple instruction that I personally do not believe needs to be over-complicated.

 

[Reneemo4]

Interesting thread. I enjoy Oswald Chamber's writing and a quick glance at my own life can see how I could easily adapt this into my own life and how it would help me. I am quick to judge other's sins. It is easy to see sin manifest in another person yet harder to see the root cause of it. I can sometimes even use righteousness to justify my harsh judgements of others. It is easy to see sin as a 2 dimensional (thoughts and action) thing when really it is 3 dimensional (heart, thoughts, actions).

It is the heart of the matter that I believe Mr. Chambers is talking about. He is not talking about the different types of sin people commit. I can easily be judged for my own sins. I could write a list and you could compare yourself to me. You might think you look great compared to me. You most probably do. The point is that you will never know how I struggled through it all. C.S. Lewis talks about sin (I think in Mere Christianity but I could be wrong) and how easy it is to judge others sins when we ourselves don't struggle with it. I am an ex-smoker. I always will be. I still struggle with it after 5 years. Some days I like the smell of cigarette smoke. In the right circumstances I even crave it. Yet, I have a Christian friend who openly condemns it and makes rude comments about it. She is right that it is vile and a bad habbit but as she never has had to deal with the heart of the issue (addiction, desire, cravings etc). She is quick to judge but is she right in her judgement?

I know this maybe over simplifying a complex matter. Sin is complex. This is just my honest opinion on it.

Blessings

Wow! (I bolded the statement that really struck me in your post.) That is something that could definitely put some perspective on not only how I view myself and my sin, but also in others.

 

[Revived]

Wow! (I bolded the statement that really struck me in your post.) That is something that could definitely put some perspective on not only how I view myself and my sin, but also in others.

I agree ...Same here!

 

[Verve]

We came across the issue of judgement in a study on modesty recently.

Since real modesty begins at the heart, not the hemline.
This issue is one that begins at the heart.
Are you judging out of love and with discretion or are you judging out of sinful nature?

If we are to walk in love we must examine where our judgements are coming from but not discount the importance of wise judgements that must be made in daily life.

Example: A teenage girl who is a church regular has recently started dressing provocatively in your opinion. Is she just oblivious and buying what fashion trends dictate or is there an underlying reason? The solution isn't just to judge based on appearance. Ask her as her sister in Christ about her wardrobe choices, how things are going, etc...

I think this can be very easily translated to situations beyond wardrobe choices.

 

[BondiHarry]

Are you aware that I didn't write the OP? It was written by Oswald Chambers. By the way, this thread was not intended to be a theological debate.

You started a thread in essence to discourage Christians from judging and I am pointing out that we are commanded by God to judge many things. The error in your opening post required scripture to show the error ... it would be ridiculous for me to say 'that's not true' and not provide the evidence that showed it was not true.

God purposes each of His children for different things (holiness for us all yes but how He uses me may be different from how He uses you or how He used Chambers) and what He teaches us of His word can vary. Apparently 'judging' was not Chamber's forte and he was incomplete in what he wrote about judgment; I just wanted to set the record straight.

 

[Revived]

I'm sticking with Oswald.

 

[Verve]

You started a thread in essence to discourage Christians from judging and I am pointing out that we are commanded by God to judge many things. The error in your opening post required scripture to show the error ... it would be ridiculous for me to say 'that's not true' and not provide the evidence that showed it was not true.

God purposes each of His children for different things (holiness for us all yes but how He uses me may be different from how He uses you or how He used Chambers) and what He teaches us of His word can vary. Apparently 'judging' was not Chamber's forte and he was incomplete in what he wrote about judgment; I just wanted to set the record straight.

I think, and Revived can correct me if I'm wrong, that this thread was intended to share how that part had convicted him personally with the point being taking the plank out of his own eye.

Not to say that it was a complete statement about biblical perspectives on judgement but to discuss judgement that we sometimes place on others that is hypocritical and without love.

Thank you for standing up and filling in the other parts for edification. I'm sure it was not intended to offend. I just think it was slightly derailing a pretty specific point that was being made in the OP.

 

[Revived]

I think, and Revived can correct me if I'm wrong, that this thread was intended to share how that part had convicted him personally with the point being taking the plank out of his own eye.

Not to say that it was a complete statement about biblical perspectives on judgement but to discuss judgement that we sometimes place on others that is hypocritical and without love.

Thank you for standing up and filling in the other parts for edification. I'm sure it was not intended to offend. I just think it was slightly derailing a pretty specific point that was being made in the OP.

Exactly. Thank you Caitlin.

 

[BondiHarry]

I think, and Revived can correct me if I'm wrong, that this thread was intended to share how that part had convicted him personally with the point being taking the plank out of his own eye.

Not to say that it was a complete statement about biblical perspectives on judgement but to discuss judgement that we sometimes place on others that is hypocritical and without love.

Thank you for standing up and filling in the other parts for edification. I'm sure it was not intended to offend. I just think it was slightly derailing a pretty specific point that was being made in the OP.

Revived is right if the point is not to judge until we get the beam our of our own eye, we all come to God with our sight obscured and our judgment should never be to put another down.

Just an aside but an observation that amused me regarding this topic "that mote you see in another's eye might just be a reflection of the beam in your own eye".

 

[IreneAdler]

I liked it. I just like to remind people however that there is a difference between evaluating a situation (a judgment call) and condemnation. I'm not sure that the scripture quoted meant judging as much as condemning. We make judgments all the time and they don't imply that we are saying something is good/evil, just appropriate or not. I think there's a huge difference.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

None of us are omniscient. Therefore, we do not know what cards are in other peoples' hands. At best, we know what cards are in our own hand.

Everybody should read the chapter in Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis, titled "Morality and Psychoanalysis". Lewis says that same thing that I am trying to say, only more effectively.

We only know the outcomes of peoples' behavior--we do not know what raw material they were working with. A man may hold a door open for a disabled person and we might think, "What a kind man". But if that is what he has been taught to do then is it really that kind of him to do such a thing? What if another person holds that door open but the examples he grew up with all amounted to treating people unkindly? In that case, the latter man's actions are better than the former's.

Again, we do not know what cards are in other peoples' hands. We do not know what raw material they had to work with when they decided to do something or not do something. Therefore, we can't accurately judge a person.

The people we think have done great things, it might turn out, have not really done much. And the people we think have been horrible, it might turn out, have done more good than we think with the little that they had to work with. As Lewis puts it, when everything is transparent "there will be surprises".

 

[MacFall]

The solution isn't just to judge based on appearance. Ask her as her sister in Christ about her wardrobe choices, how things are going, etc...

Very much this.

Simply recognizing the moral quality of an action is a judgment. We should not ignore sin when we encounter it, especially among our brethren. However, we should not pretend that we can read the contents of a people's hearts by a person's appearance, or even by cursorily observing their actions and words, without actually communicating with them.

 

[peacechild4]

My devotional today (from My Utmost) was one of the most convicting I've read in a while. The question in the second paragraph really floored me ...


Romans 2:1 says that the one who criticizes another is guilty of the very same thing. God looks not only at the act itself, but also at the possibility of committing it, which He sees by looking at our hearts ... Do we really believe the statement that says we criticize in others the very things we are guilty of ourselves? The reason we see hypocrisy, deceit, and a lack of genuineness in others is that they are all in our own hearts. The greatest characteristic of a saint is humility, as evidenced by being able to say honestly and humbly, “Yes, all those, as well as other evils, would have been exhibited in me if it were not for the grace of God. Therefore, I have no right to judge.”

Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged” // Matthew 7:1. He went on to say, in effect, “If you do judge, you will be judged in exactly the same way.” Who of us would dare to stand before God and say, “My God, judge me as I have judged others”? We have judged others as sinners ... if God should judge us in the same way, we would be condemned to hell. Yet God judges us on the basis of the miraculous atonement by the Cross of Christ.

This is very timely.. I got judged tonight here on my marital status or over what is happening.. I don't even know the person.. it made me sad because they do not know my story or the fight and heartbreak I have gone through in this journey which was not my choice.. but I realise as I think upon it.. I do not have to base what I do on what others think.. or even get angry at what they say because they do not know everything they do not see my heart.. thankfully GOD sees my heart.. and HE knows why and how..

I must not be angry or dissapointed but forgive and make sure I do not treat others wrongly.. but bless back and be humble before GOD.. because I have judged others in the past.. and I must learn from this so I am much more aware of how I come across.....

 

[Reneemo4]

None of us are omniscient. Therefore, we do not know what cards are in other peoples' hands. At best, we know what cards are in our own hand.

Everybody should read the chapter in Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis, titled "Morality and Psychoanalysis". Lewis says that same thing that I am trying to say, only more effectively.

We only know the outcomes of peoples' behavior--we do not know what raw material they were working with. A man may hold a door open for a disabled person and we might think, "What a kind man". But if that is what he has been taught to do then is it really that kind of him to do such a thing? What if another person holds that door open but the examples he grew up with all amounted to treating people unkindly? In that case, the latter man's actions are better than the former's.

Again, we do not know what cards are in other peoples' hands. We do not know what raw material they had to work with when they decided to do something or not do something. Therefore, we can't accurately judge a person.

The people we think have done great things, it might turn out, have not really done much. And the people we think have been horrible, it might turn out, have done more good than we think with the little that they had to work with. As Lewis puts it, when everything is transpartent "there will be surprises".

I had an understanding of what you were trying to communicate in this thread, but this clears it up even more. This fascinates me, but I guess my confusion lies in whether or not an action is deemed 'better' when it's done by one person or another depending on the roots of the reason for their action. Is that what you mean? And do you see this as true?

I am also trying to differentiate the difference between judging someone and being critical. I am very critical by nature, all learned behaviours - which I am desperately trying to un-learn - but I am not judgmental. But you are right that Jesus does call us to 'call out' others behaviours. So maybe it's a matter of semantics here. What do we consider 'judging' vs discussing concerns about other peoples behaviours/lifestyles?

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

I had an understanding of what you were trying to communicate in this thread, but this clears it up even more. This fascinates me, but I guess my confusion lies in whether or not an action is deemed 'better' when it's done by one person or another depending on the roots of the reason for their action. Is that what you mean? And do you see this as true?...

We simply do not know what a person is working with when he/she makes a choice. Imagine a child refusing to eat vegetables. His parents might judge him as being immature and stubborn. But what if he believes that if he eats vegetables they will grow inside his body? In that case he is not being immature or stubborn--he is making the best choice based on what he has to work with.

A lot of people think that they are morally good. They have never done things like commit murder, they tell themselves. But it could be that they have never even had the urge to commit murder. Meanwhile, other people may carry such an urge around their entire lives but recognize that murder is wrong and resist acting on the urge. Who has really done better with the cards in his/her hand?

People can tell us what cards are in their hands, but unless we develop the ability to read minds we still do not know for sure what they have to work with when they make a choice.

We can judge people's actions. But how can we accurately judge the actor if none of us really know what he/she had to work with in choosing to carry out or not carry out an action?

 

[miss-a]

But ultimately we will know them by their fruits. the person who thinks the veg will grow in his gut is showing innocent ignorance that harms no one. the fruit isn't good, but it's not evil either. so we've always got to get back to the fruit in a person's life.