John 6:38-39

Kaleb5000

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I would like to discuss these two verse. I want to lay a few ground rules. So many other threads on once saved always saved are all over the place and barely ever stay on track.

Rule 1

stay on these two verses.

Answer previous posters questions before asking your own. Most important. If someone addresses you specifically answer them and then ask your own.

Assume everyone is debating to gain a better understanding of scripture

Never assume anyone is attacking anyone, or talking down to. It is hard to tell the tone of a persons voice in text.

Be respectful it's ok to disagree.


Knowing the rules

Let's discuss

John 6:38-39 says

“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:38-39‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This to me says that once one has truly given themselves to Christ and God has given Christ them, they are saved.

Because Jesus carries out the will of the father he can not fail.

If someone is saved and then they lose their salvation then that would be mean Jesus failed at carrying out the will of his father.

That can't happen.



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alexandriaisburning

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Let's discuss

John 6:38-39 says

“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:38-39‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This to me says that once one has truly given themselves to Christ and God has given Christ them, they are saved.

Because Jesus carries out the will of the father he can not fail.

If someone is saved and then they lose their salvation then that would be mean Jesus failed at carrying out the will of his father.

That can't happen.

I don't see, honestly, how you get that from these two verses, without first importing a load of theological baggage to the text. I think given the immediate context of the words that Jesus says in these two verses, it's a plausible interpretation that he's speaking about himself and his resurrection. It is the will of the Father that Christ become incarnate and lose his life; yet equally, even in the midst of this "loss", it is not a true loss, for it will be raised up (resurrected). This meaning is then carried over in Christ's resurrective work in the lives of those "believe" in the Son; even as the Son is raised up, so too will those who believe in him be raised in like manner.

As such, I would argue it's more about Jesus' means of carrying out the will of the Father (death (bread)->resurrection (life)), and less a commentary on the "perseverance of the saints".
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Rule 1 stay on these two verses. John 6:38-39 says
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:38-39‬ ‭ESV‬‬
"This to me says that once one has truly given themselves to Christ and God has given Christ them, they are saved........"


^^
"This to me..... "one has truly given themselves" ...."

Is not in those 2 verses.
So doesn't that break Rule 1 ?

This also is not in those 2 verses "...and God has given Christ them..."
 
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First, the Bible does not adhere to anyone's rule making so as to ignore other Scripture. The Bible has to be read in context and as a whole.

Second, as for John 6:38-39: This is what the passasge says in context,

John 6:37-40

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

You can double check it for yourself here,

John 6 (King James)

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Source Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Eternal_Security.2593556.pdf
 
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Kaleb5000

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So doesn't that break Rule 1 ?

Absolutely not I was discussing those two verses. My main intention with that rule is to keep people on topic so people like Jason do not come along and assume they are being attacked and then go on a tirade and break the rules instantly.
 
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Kaleb5000

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I think given the immediate context of the words that Jesus says in these two verses, it's a plausible interpretation that he's speaking about himself and his resurrection. It is the will of the Father that Christ become incarnate and lose his life; yet equally, eve

I see how you could see that but that is unlikely since since the previous verse he says all that the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. Doesn't sound like he is talking about himself.

Yes I quoted a different verse but it is in the same chapter and one verse beefier the others.

Verse 40 says that everyone who looks on the son and believes in him should have eternal life and he will raise them up on the last day.

So when taken in context Jesus is not talking about him self
 
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Kaleb5000

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Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD


Well since Jesus always speaks with authority and absolutes I do not think the word should should be taken to mean maybe.

If Jesus always does the will of his father then he WILL not lose any. Because if they were saved they can't be lost. I am saved I can't be lost. Not to say I do what I want. I try everyday to carry out the will of God.

Can you imagine Jesus speaking and saying " I always do the will of my father. His will is that I should lose none that the father has given me. But i may loose some."


No because that would make the Jesus a liar.
 
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Well since Jesus always speaks with authority and absolutes I do not think the word should should be taken to mean maybe.

If Jesus always does the will of his father then he WILL not lose any. Because if they were saved they can't be lost. I am saved I can't be lost. Not to say I do what I want. I try everyday to carry out the will of God.

Can you imagine Jesus speaking and saying " I always do the will of my father. His will is that I should lose none that the father has given me. But i may loose some."


No because that would make the Jesus a liar.

The word "should" or "may" do not change just because Jesus spoke with authority. You are attempting to change the meaning of these words because they do not agree with your theology. Also, the Bible says many are called but FEW are chosen. This can be seen in the Parable of the Sower. There were three who received the seed of the Word and one who did not receive it (an unbeliever). The one who endured and brought forth much fruit is a chosen one. He was called and he responded accordingly. The other two who responded to the call, received the Word with joy but they did not endure in their faith. One fell away due to persecution and the other fell away due to the riches or cares of this life. They also were called, and they even responded to receiving the seed of the Word (i.e. the gospel), but they were not chosen because they fell away. They were saved for only a short time. For if what you believe is true, then there should be no way that names can be blotted out the book of life. Names can only be in the book if they are saved.. A blotting out of that names suggests they are no longer saved. There are more verses, but hopefully this should help you to see that what you believe is not in any way shape or form Biblical.


...
 
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Kaleb5000

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The word "should" or "may" do not change just because Jesus spoke with authority. You are attempting to change the meaning of these words because they do not agree with your theology. Also, the Bible says many are called but FEW are chosen. This can be seen in the Parable of the Sower. There were three who received the seed of the Word and one who did not receive it (an unbeliever). The one who endured and brought forth much fruit is a chosen one. He was called and he responded accordingly. The other two who responded to the call, received the Word with joy but they did not endure in their faith. One fell away due to persecution and the other fell away due to the riches or cares of this life. They also were called, and they even responded to receiving the seed of the Word (i.e. the gospel), but they were not chosen because they fell away. They were saved for only a short time. For if what you believe is true, then there should be no way that names can be blotted out the book of life. Names can only be in the book if they are saved.. A blotting out of that names suggests they are no longer saved. There are more verses, but hopefully this should help you to see that what you believe is not in any way shape or form Biblical.


...

If Jesus always does the will of his father and the will of his father is that he should lose none that come to him then how could you possibly think he will lose some of the ones who come to him?

Please address this. With out quoting another verse. This question is directly for you or any other participant. I want your personal answer to this question.


Again please stay on topic here.


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sdowney717

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People are born anew, again, from above prior to their confessing Christ.
You CAN NOT say Jesus is LORD, except by the Holy Spirit. So no one will be confessing Christ as Lord and be saved, unless they are first born from above. You must be born again first to see and enter the kingdom of God.
They are given by the Father to Christ, and then they come to Christ afterwards. This is the election of them to be of the saved ones. This is thier predestination for those whom He foreknew. That foreknowing is not of knowledge per se, but of an intimacy in knowing them individually and personally beforehand.
For those whom He foreknew, he did also predestinate to be conformed to the image of Christ, that is of the sheep of Christ, so then His people.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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First, the Bible does not adhere to anyone's rule making so as to ignore other Scripture. The Bible has to be read in context and as a whole.

Lol. You criticize him for imposing rules, and then LITERALLY in the next sentence you do precisely the same thing! Pot, meet kettle!
 
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alexandriaisburning

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I see how you could see that but that is unlikely since since the previous verse he says all that the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. Doesn't sound like he is talking about himself.

Yes I quoted a different verse but it is in the same chapter and one verse beefier the others.

Verse 40 says that everyone who looks on the son and believes in him should have eternal life and he will raise them up on the last day.

So when taken in context Jesus is not talking about him self

In the full context, yes, Jesus is talking about himself. His entire argument in this passage is not "who is saved" and "who isn't saved", or whether the "saved ones" will or will not "persevere" until the end. His argument, rather, is that he is the one who has come from the Father to give true bread and true drink. That he will "lose" none is in reference to his identity as the true life-giver (not the faltering bread of the fathers) and the one who will raise them to life by virtue of his own resurrection.

It is these claims, after all, that make the Jews murmur...not the "scandal" of OSAS. Honestly, the interpretive license which you are taking with this text is breathtaking.
 
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Lol. You criticize him for imposing rules, and then LITERALLY in the next sentence you do precisely the same thing! Pot, meet kettle!

Where did I impose a rule whereby I said, Rule #1, etc.?

Besides, are you against looking at the context and or cross references?

Furthermore, Acts 17:11 essentially says that the Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether something was true or not.

Side Note:

Also, there is a difference between making up a rule so as to focus a laser beam on a certain portion of Scriptures so as to manipulate what it is saying vs. (versus) letting the whole of Scripture speak on the matter.

...
 
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If Jesus always does the will of his father and the will of his father is that he should lose none that come to him then how could you possibly think he will lose some of the ones who come to him?

Please address this. With out quoting another verse. This question is directly for you or any other participant. I want your personal answer to this question.


Again please stay on topic here.


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Look up the words "should" and "may" in the dictionary and then get back to me.

...
 
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fhansen

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I would like to discuss these two verse. I want to lay a few ground rules. So many other threads on once saved always saved are all over the place and barely ever stay on track.

Rule 1

stay on these two verses.

Answer previous posters questions before asking your own. Most important. If someone addresses you specifically answer them and then ask your own.

Assume everyone is debating to gain a better understanding of scripture

Never assume anyone is attacking anyone, or talking down to. It is hard to tell the tone of a persons voice in text.

Be respectful it's ok to disagree.


Knowing the rules

Let's discuss

John 6:38-39 says

“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:38-39‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This to me says that once one has truly given themselves to Christ and God has given Christ them, they are saved.

Because Jesus carries out the will of the father he can not fail.

If someone is saved and then they lose their salvation then that would be mean Jesus failed at carrying out the will of his father.

That can't happen.



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The problem is that the determination of one's status-of being one of those whom the Father has given to Jesus-and of predicting that we'll be one of those who will persevere, as scripture tells us we must, is mainly subjective, while God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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Where did I impose a rule whereby I said, Rule #1, etc.?

You said, and I quote:

Jason0047 said:
The Bible has to be read in context and as a whole.

You're doing exactly what you accuse him of doing.

Besides, are you against looking at the context and or cross references?

That is not material to the subject of your hypocrisy in complaining about "rules" that people impose, but then out of the other side of your mouth you insist upon your own.

Furthermore, Acts 17:11 essentially says that the Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether something was true or not.

Random, and irrelevant.

Also, there is a difference between making up a rule so as to focus a laser beam on a certain portion of Scriptures so as to manipulate what it is saying vs. (versus) letting the whole of Scripture speak on the matter.

Yes, obviously there is a difference since they comprise different interpretive methodologies. However, regarding the nature of the capriciousness of their application, they are precisely the same.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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The problem is that the determination of one's status-of being one of those whom the Father has given to Jesus-and of predicting that we'll be one of those who will persevere, as scripture tells us we must, is mainly subjective, while God, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

Not "mainly subjective". It is entirely subjective. We have no knowledge of the ultimate state of reconciliation between ourselves and God, much less between others whose hearts we do not and cannot know.
 
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fhansen

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Not "mainly subjective". It is entirely subjective. We have no knowledge of the ultimate state of reconciliation between ourselves and God, much less between others whose hearts we do not and cannot know.
Well, it's not as though we can have no assurance whatsoever. Faith, itself, is grace-a "taste of heaven". We must have a guarded assurance in light of 1) trust in God and, 2) an acknowledgement of our own limitations, weaknesses, pride, and proclivity for sin, or that which is not "of God". With experience of grace in general and then fruit/transformation in our lives we can know that God is working, and that we must, with a degree of "fear and trembling", work out our salvation with He who works in us.
 
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Kaleb5000

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In the full context, yes, Jesus is talking about himself. His entire argument in this passage is not "who is saved" and "who isn't saved", or whether the "saved ones" will or will not "persevere" until the end. His argument, rather, is that he is the one who has come from the Father to give true bread and true drink. That he will "lose" none is in reference to his identity as the true life-giver (not the faltering bread of the fathers) and the one who will raise them to life by virtue of his own resurrection.

It is these claims, after all, that make the Jews murmur...not the "scandal" of OSAS. Honestly, the interpretive license which you are taking with this text is breathtaking.

We will have to disagree.

Explain " whoever comes to me" verse 6:37 that clearly means a individual.

"Everyone who looks on the son" John 6:40

I never said his argument was about who is and isn't saved. I said the ones who have come to him are saved.

How many times can a person be saved?

How many times can Jesus be crucified.?

If I am saved but commit a in the moment sin where I act before I think . Like kill a cheating spouse. I repent once I come to my senses am I still saved? Have I lost my salvation?


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