Jewish people have a separate way of salvation

[dfw69]

There is definitely more light coming.
We see in the mirror darkly.
We have yet to experience the latter rain.
The blinders are to come off when the time of the gentiles is over.
The scroll eaten and the two witnesses testifying before the world has yet to happen.

What do you mean when you say time of the Gentiles is over ? And when did it start ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

What does this mean ?...

It means there is no actual scripture that says anyone will be punished endlessly.
So that leaves two other primary options. The temporal punishment either ends in annihilationism or in universalism. You can make up your own mind as to which is more Biblically supported.

But eternal torture, in addition to not being Biblical, is also illogical. It is not the greatest possible glorification of God. Rather it dishonors God. Punishment (leading to a goal) is an intelligent thing; eternal torture is just stupid. It is the most illogical thing one could ever conceive of. It has no goal, other than to make someone suffer.

 

[dfw69]

It means there is no actual scripture that says anyone will be punished endlessly.
So that leaves two other primary options. The temporal punishment either ends in annihilationism or in universalism. You can make up your own mind as to which is more Biblically supported.

But eternal torture, in addition to not being Biblical, is also illogical. It is not the greatest possible glorification of God. Rather it dishonors God. Punishment (leading to a goal) is an intelligent thing; eternal torture is just stupid. It is the most illogical thing one could ever conceive of. It has no goal, other than to make someone suffer.

What I'm wondering is how is Hashem going to fulfill those scriptures based on your interpretation?

Like when it says the devil is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever ... Could you explain how this is going to be fulfilled?

Cause I'm not following what you are trying to say

 

[Hoshiyya]

What I'm wondering is how is Hashem going to fulfill those scriptures based on your interpretation?

The scriptures say certain people will be punished for a finite amount of time.
By punishing certain people a finite amount of time, he would fulfill those passages.
Of course, it would vary from individual to individual, as is the case with prison sentences.

If you believe God is capable of punishing someone for ever, why can't you believe he is capable of punishing someone for a fair amount of time, corresponding to their crimes ?
You are capable of believing him unfair, but not fair ?
You are capable of seeing him as harsh to the point of stupid, but not as merciful ?

God does not punish forever, as his anger does not last forever (Psalms 30:5).

 

[dfw69]

The scriptures say certain people will be punished for a finite amount of time.
By punishing certain people a finite amount of time, he would fulfill those passages.
Of course, it would vary from individual to individual, as is the case with prison sentences.

Your saying people will be judge and condemn by the messiah to come and will be cast into a lake of fire they have prepared for those condemned to be destroyed ... It's a mortal death am I correct ?

That when yeshua comes he will cast Gentiles who will not conform to the law to be cast into hell fire which is genneha to die as punishment ?... Cast alive I assume?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Your saying people will be judge and condemn by the messiah to come and will be cast into a lake of fire they have prepared for those condemned to be destroyed ... It's a mortal death am I correct ?

In the millennial age, I think there will be executions, the bodies of the dead being thrown into the valley of Gehenna.

(For some reason we use the Nordic term "hell", from pagan mythology, to describe the physical valley called Gehenna or Gehinnom. I use the term hell, but it is actually a somewhat unhelpful term. Gehenna and the lake of fire are two different things, but both are in practice called "hell".)

After the Messiah has reigned for 1000 years this earth will end. God will make a new one and everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected.
In the New Earth, which comes after the 1000 year reign of the Messiah, there will be a lake of fire. Those thrown into the lake of fire are either destroyed forever (annihilationism), or their punishment will ultimately lead to reformation (universal salvation.) You can make up your own mind on that.

 

[dfw69]

In the millennial age, I think there will be executions, the bodies of the dead being thrown into the valley of Gehenna. (For some reason we use the Nordic term "hell", from pagan mythology, to describe this physical valley called Gehenna or Gehinnom.)

After the Messiah has reigned for 1000 years this earth will end. God will make a new one and everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected.
In the New Earth, which comes after the 1000 year reign of the Messiah, there will be a lake of fire. Those thrown into the lake of fire are either destroyed forever (annihilationism), or their punishment will ultimately lead to reformation (universal salvation.) You can make up your own mind on that.

Now .. Let's say this happens above as you say .. A man named yeshua comes to establish all this ... And he is not the true yeshua .. True yeshua has warn of eternal fires but none believe nor fear.. If men follow this false yeshua to condemn sinners and cast their bodies to the fire....and some that were cast into the fires where true saints and prophets sent to Israel .

What do you think will happen to those liars and false prophets who were decietful in their practices ...who did not fear Hashem ... And denied the true yeshua and did all this wickedness in his sight ?

Eternal fires are prepared for Satan but also for that generation which will do those things above ..revelation 21:8

No wonder why yeshua said do not go after them when they say behold here is messiah ... That generation will fulfill revelation 21:8

 

[Hoshiyya]

Now .. Let's say this happens above as you say .. A man named yeshua comes to establish all this ... And he is not the true yeshua

"Let's say this happens above as you say"

OK.

"A man named yeshua comes to establish all this"

More than just a man, but OK. So far so good.

"And he is not the true yeshua"

You already messed it up. If it were to happen as the Bible actually says, he would be true Yeshua. Why would we modify the words of the Bible the way you are suggesting? It makes no sense.

If you want to conduct a thought-experiment about the scenario I described, then do that. Don't modify the scenario.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"Eternal fires are prepared for Satan but also for that generation which will do those things above ..revelation 21:8"

This verse doesn't even mention aion. Not even in English does this verse teach eternal torment.

 

[dfw69]

"Let's say this happens above as you say"

OK.

"A man named yeshua comes to establish all this"

More than just a man, but OK. So far so good.

"And he is not the true yeshua"

You already messed it up. If it were to happen as the Bible actually says, he would be true Yeshua. Why would we modify the words of the Bible the way you are suggesting? It makes no sense.

If you want to conduct a thought-experiment about the scenario I described, then do that. Don't modify the scenario.

I'm giving you my scenario that that man you call yeshua who will accomplish those things will be a false messiah ... He is not yeshua who died for the world ... He would only put fear in mankind to hate and fear the true yeshua who is still yet to come ... Using the lords name in vain ...all who follow him will be cast into the lake of fire reaping what they sowed ...They will Judge and condemn in the name of the law reaping the curses of the law upon themselves

 

[Hoshiyya]

I'm giving you my scenario that that man you call yeshua who will accomplish those things will be a false messiah ... He is not yeshua who died for the world ... He would only put fear in mankind to hate and fear the true yeshua who is still yet to come ... Using the lords name in vain ...all who follow him will be cast into the lake of fire reaping what they sowed ...They will Judge and condemn in the name of the law reaping the curses of the law upon themselves

There is no way for a false Messiah to do what the true Messiah will do. First the Antichrist has to come, then Yeshua will establish his kingdom after that. All things must be in place and all prophecies will be fulfilled.

 

[visionary]

A little study on the subject... http://www.christianforums.com/threads/oh-hell.1529924/

 

[dfw69]

A little study on the subject... http://www.christianforums.com/threads/oh-hell.1529924/

Sis are you prepared to accept the Yeshua to come hoshyya describes ? ... Are you prepared to give up family members who will not conform to yeshua law to be judge and condemned and thier bodies thrown into genneha?...

You also believe Hashem will pour out the latter rain upon Israel ... What if the spirit of Hashem is poured upon you and you will have visions and dreams of the true yeshua and Hashem reveals to you that the false yeshua on earth is not hashems yeshua but another who came in his own name?

 

[visionary]

Sis are you prepared to accept the Yeshua to come hoshyya describes ? ... Are you prepared to give up family members who will not conform to yeshua law to be judge and condemned and thier bodies thrown into genneha?...

You also believe Hashem will pour out the latter rain upon Israel ... What if the spirit of Hashem is poured upon you and you will have visions and dreams of the true yeshua and Hashem reveals to you that the false yeshua on earth is not hashems yeshua but another who came in his own name?

God will lead me. I am not concerned with Hoshyya's concepts. God will wipe away all my tears when I get there... I believe the latter rain will fall on the whole world of people. This is not local to Israel specifically. Israel will receive this rain and appreciate it in ways the world will soon understand. Hashem has already revealed the false yeshua in the Yom Kippur story.

 

[dfw69]

If you desire to know that your understanding of Yeshua is the true Yeshua then simply apply Torah to your understanding of his teachings. Does your understanding of his teachings comply with Torah? If so then perhaps you have the true Yeshua but if not then perhaps you have learned a false version of Yeshua. One very prominent passage, which we know concerns Yeshua according to Luke quoting Peter in the book of Acts, is found in Deuteronomy. I will quote the KJV simply because it is the most widely acknowledged:

Acts 3:19-23 KJV
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Acts 3:22-23 is clearly from the following passage but look at the wider context:

Deuteronomy 18:13-22 KJV
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

So then, the things Yeshua foretold; did they come to pass or not? If not then we are not to heed or fear that Prophet; this includes passages such as the Olivet Discourse, Matthew 24-26, Mark 13, and any other statements that are understood to have been prophetic utterances. So the question then becomes, how long is long enough to wait, to see if what the Prophet said has come to pass? How long can I wait if my lifespan is no more than seventy years? Can I wait a hundred years and reasonably expect to see what he said come to pass? Can I wait two thousand years to see if what he said comes to pass? If one is realistic about these things then the same should have no problem understanding that no one in the first century expected to wait two thousand years for the words of Messiah to come to pass. They either came to pass in their own lifetimes or we are not to heed or fear that Prophet according to what is written in the Torah quoted herein above. What then does this mean for your version of Messiah? Do you have the correct Messiah according to what is written in the Torah? Did the words he spoke come to pass or not? The same goes for the author of the Apocalypse and any other writings deemed to have been prophetic including certain statements from Paul. Force your own doctrine to comply with Torah first and the only viable outcome will be that indeed the words of Messiah Yeshua came to pass. However Yeshua said that his words shall never pass away; so they are Spirit, and they apply to every disciple who decides to follow him. Therefore his words must also be fulfilled in you, and not one iota, jot, or little horn, shall pass from the Law till all of it be accomplished, and your "heavens" and your "earth" pass away, and the times of refreshing have come.

I don't need Torah to prove if yeshua is the true messiah or not ... I already believe in him based on the new covenant .. If the sons of Israel need more proof then so be it as the scripture says ... They have Moses and the prophets let them listen to them ...Luke 16:29

 

[visionary]

Maybe to lead us astray from the truth ...not the intention of Hashem but man

What if the original had forever but the Greeks or scribes placed aeon instead because it made sense based on the Jewish mindset?

I would hate to look deeper only to find yeshua was a false prophet and false messiah ... Which all the hidden leaven within the scriptures will lead one to believe

I would think that the deeper you look the more you will find Yeshua as the true. The false messiah will be misleading, redirecting, use force to control the masses [aka no buying or selling unless you worship the beast]etc.. something the true Messiah would never do. He is the same from beginning to the very end, no changes, pure,and Holy. Holy is not something that the false can emulate... He can be bright, powerful, influential, charismatic, charming, deceiving, and lying, just to name a few of his characteristics. The imitator comes first, then Yeshua at the second coming.

 

[dfw69]

I would think that the deeper you look the more you will find Yeshua as the true. The false messiah will be misleading, redirecting, use force to control the masses [aka no buying or selling unless you worship the beast]etc.. something the true Messiah would never do. He is the same from beginning to the very end, no changes, pure,and Holy. Holy is not something that the false can emulate... He can be bright, powerful, influential, charismatic, charming, deceiving, and lying, just to name a few of his characteristics. The imitator comes first, then Yeshua at the second coming.

I don't know what the world is planning but I know it's a deceptive plan to usher in the false messianic age ... And many will be decieved .. I'll stick with the basics of Christianity ..as they say it's not the quantity that you know but the quality ... I follow after hashems heart to obey his son and to walk in his Halacha which is the heart of Hashem namely to love Hashem and love everyone else ... Let others search the Torah for answers ...I already found Torah in the embodiment of Y'shia

If any messiah comes to judge and condemn in the name of the law in my lifetime I will not follow him... He is not my messiah .. He is an imposter ..my messiah has promised his followers eternal life in the presence of Hashem through the sacrifices he made to free us from the law ... I will honor my messiah to not return to the law to establish my own righteousness ... I don't care how foolish I appear before the sons of Israel according to the flesh...

You have open my eyes to see greater truth of the scriptures in the bible studies we held together ... I appreciate you visionary for your teachings of the feast of the lord ...To know yshia more ... Peace and blessings to you and yours

As for the Torah... I cannot accept any old leaven that takes away from the new lump of meal yah hoshiah has prepared for us ...I will remain in the faith to eat unleavened bread to honor my lord and savior who honors his father so that one day we may become one made possible through his sacrifice....

Yah ahavah means love and as my father loved me a sinner to send his son to die for my sins I in return must judge not and condemn not but love sinners as he has loved and forgave my sins ...may the father lead us all to his truths and keep us from the evil to come

 

[daq]

I don't need Torah to prove if yeshua is the true messiah or not ... I already believe in him based on the new covenant .. If the sons of Israel need more proof then so be it as the scripture says ... They have Moses and the prophets let them listen to them ...Luke 16:29

Ah, I see, and what "new covenant" guidelines are you employing to see whether or not your version of Yeshua qualifies? If you have no clear pre-qualifications that can be inspected and anticipated before the arrival of any anointed one then essentially your version of Messiah is whatever you say he is supposed to be.

And at the close of your comments you then you say, "If the sons of Israel need more proof then so be it as the scripture says ... They have Moses and the prophets let them listen to them ...Luke 16:29"?? Do you not consider the teaching from that same passage a "new covenant" passage?? After all the statement is attributed to Yeshua, by Luke. How then can you say that those words of father Abraham are for the sons of Yisrael but not for you? Even your version of a "new covenant" does not match up with the Testimony of Yeshua because of what you just posted. If Yeshua is giving a lesson that attributes symbolic or allegorical words to Abraham, to make a point, and especially the words from the passage which you have just quoted, then the only option I have concerning what you believe from that very same passage is that since you cast Moshe and the Prophets aside, as not applying to yourself, then neither do you actually believe that one rose from the dead. You see? The Testimony of Yeshua will fall upon you and grind you to powder if you do not fall upon that Stone and allow him to break you and your doctrine(s).

 

[dfw69]

Ah, I see, and what "new covenant" guidelines are you employing to see whether or not your version of Yeshua qualifies? If you have no clear pre-qualifications that can be inspected and anticipated before the arrival of any anointed one then essentially your version of Messiah is whatever you say he is supposed to be.

And at the close of your comments you then you say, "If the sons of Israel need more proof then so be it as the scripture says ... They have Moses and the prophets let them listen to them ...Luke 16:29"?? Do you not consider the teaching from that same passage a "new covenant" passage?? After all the statement is attributed to Yeshua, by Luke. How then can you say that those words of father Abraham are for the sons of Yisrael but not for you? Even your version of a "new covenant" does not match up with the Testimony of Yeshua because of what you just posted. If Yeshua is giving a lesson that attributes symbolic or allegorical words to Abraham, to make a point, and especially the words from the passage which you have just quoted, then the only option I have concerning what you believe from that very same passage is that since you cast of Moshe and the Prophets aside, as not applying to yourself, then neither do you actually believe that one rose from the dead. You see? The Testimony of Yeshua will fall upon you and grind you to powder if you do not fall upon that Stone and allow him to break you and your doctrine(s).

Daq if I'm so foolish as you believe why are you even talking to me?

Besides I don't understand what you are saying to me ... You might as well be talking in Hebrew because I'm not comprehending your replies

Maybe your just to wise for me to understand me being so foolish

Are you trying to teach me something or trying to appear wiser than me?...

 

[daq]

Daq if I'm so foolish as you believe why are you even talking to me?

Besides I don't understand what you are saying to me ... You might as well be talking in Hebrew because I'm not comprehending your replies

Maybe your just to wise for me to understand me being so foolish

What? It was you who quoted the passage:

Luke 16:29-31
29 Abraham said to him, They have Moshe and the Prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moshe and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

How therefore can you justify quoting this "new covenant" passage as some sort of proof text toward those whom you call, "the sons of Israel", when you yourself just said in the same breath that you do not need Moshe and the Prophets to know who Messiah is? You appear to have essentially nullified everything that Messiah is written to be, in Torah and Prophets, because you say that you do not need Torah and Prophets but have your own proof in "new covenant" writings. Well, what you quoted from are words that Luke attributes to Yeshua: how then can you say they are for someone else but do not apply to yourself and your doctrine? Therefore, in accordance with what the Master has said, I say, If you hear not Moshe and the Prophets; neither do I believe you are truly persuaded that one rose from the dead, for if you were, you would force yourself to comply with his doctrine and Word.
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