Jesus vs Paul

[nomadictheist]

Others have already commented on some of the many issues that arise from this article's standpoint, but I want to quickly summarize my take on them before I forget.

1. "The messages of Jesus and Paul were fundamentally different."
Rebuttal: Jesus said "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3: 14-18)

The first argument rests entirely on Jesus preaching a gospel of obedience to the law, but here Jesus clearly says 3 times that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved.

Furthermore, Jesus Himself says that the Kingdom of Heaven will be taken from the Jews:
"Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”"

Jesus spoke this way because, in the present of His speaking, the Jews had not yet rejected their Messiah.

2. The kingdom difference

The entirety of this argument rests on Jesus preaching an earthly Kingdom... There are many places we could look at to counter this, but the rebuttal can be found by simply referring to Jesus' encounter with Pontus Pilate:

"Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”"

3. The baptism difference

The primary scripture used to say that Paul didn't believe in baptism by water is taken way out of context. The "One baptism" is addressing factions of the church, not baptism by water. The "one" refers to unity, not exclusion

4. The Kingship difference

Jesus never calls Himself the "King of the Jews." He is the Messiah, and when talking to Pontus Pilate He states that He is "a King" while pointedly avoiding saying that He was "King of the Jews." When the Jews attempted to crown Him, He escaped them. Rather, He says "My Kingdom is not of this world..." which fits very well with the presentation that Paul gives of the ascended Jesus ruling a Kingdom that is in the world but not of it.

5. Paul preached repentance as well: see below:
Acts 17:29-31 (Paul speaking to the Areopagus)
"Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Also, as he prepares to go to Jerusalem, Paul says:
"You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

6. Audience

Jesus came to the Jews. There is no debate about this. However, it is clearly stated that He came first to the Jews that the prophecy of His being rejected by His own people should be realized. This is not a fundamental gospel difference. It is a different "Dispensation," as has been noted before.

7. Law vs. Grace

This is yet another fabricated difference. Jesus taught that one should seek to obey the law of God, yes, but He never taught that it led to salvation. Quite the contrary:

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

And see the former quotations about "all who believe in Him should be saved."

Jesus entire ministry was about showing people that they could never obtain life by following the law.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

And? Naturally he would since he lived under the first covenant.



Again....and? You need to show what you think are specific contradictions. Thusfar you have shown no issues.

We can take the time to explore contradictions between Paul and Yahshua found in Scripture, but why? I already know your blanket answer will be that Paul taught under a different dispensation than Yahshua, so why expend the energy?
However.....
You've asked for specifics?
Eating food sacrificed to idols: Paul says yes, Yahshua says no. (Keep in mind this was the resurrected Yahshua who said "no", therefore you can't pull the dispensationalist card.

Yahshua says to follow Him
Paul says to follow Paul as he follows Jesus.

I'm thinking I'll stick with the one who is spoken of all through the Tanach

 

[St_Worm2]

Eating food sacrificed to idols: Paul says yes, Yahshua says no.

Paul clearly qualifies his "yes" by saying that it should never be done in certain circumstances (1 Corinthians 10:28). I have forgotten where Yeshua addresses this (to abstain from eating food sacrificed to idols, that is). Please give me the verse reference so I can find it again. Thanks

 

[ewq1938]

We can take the time to explore contradictions between Paul and Yahshua found in Scripture, but why? I already know your blanket answer will be that Paul taught under a different dispensation than Yahshua, so why expend the energy?

Well that is a fact that must be considered. When Paul converted he no longer was in bondage to the first covenant and law. But that wouldn't be the sole issue in any supposed contradictions you think exist.

However.....
You've asked for specifics?
Eating food sacrificed to idols: Paul says yes, Yahshua says no. (Keep in mind this was the resurrected Yahshua who said "no", therefore you can't pull the dispensationalist card.

Please present the scriptures and I'll comment on them.

Yahshua says to follow Him
Paul says to follow Paul as he follows Jesus.

Again, without scripture this won't go anywhere.

I'm thinking I'll stick with the one who is spoken of all through the Tanach

And reject whom Christ sent? How wise is that?

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Acts 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Are you going to claim Acts 9 is not scripture as you do with 2 Peter?

 

[HebrewVaquero]

Well that is a fact that must be considered. When Paul converted he no longer was in bondage to the first covenant and law. But that wouldn't be the sole issue in any supposed contradictions you think exist.

Are you going to claim Acts 9 is not scripture as you do with 2 Peter?

Pretty cool how using the dispensation card a person can dismiss the same Scripture Yahshua affirmed yet it is hertical to question a bunch of unknown catholic leaders hand picked by a Sun worshiping pagan ruler of the Roman Empire as to their choice of canonizing scripture 300 plus years after the fact.
Simply Amazing!

Please present the scriptures and I'll comment on them.
Again, without scripture this won't go anywhere.

*The Apostles and the brother of Yahshua:
Acts 15:29
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; [a]if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from [a]meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”


*The risen Messiah:

Revelation 2:14
14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

Revelation 2:20
20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

Paul:
1 Corinthians 8:4
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that [a]there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

And reject whom Christ sent? How wise is that?

Yahshua also picked Judas

 

[ewq1938]

Pretty cool how using the dispensation card a person can dismiss the same Scripture Yahshua affirmed yet it is hertical to question a bunch of unknown catholic leaders hand picked by a Sun worshiping pagan ruler of the Roman Empire as to their choice of canonizing scripture 300 plus years after the fact.
Simply Amazing!

No red herrings in this thread please. I have not dismissed anything Christ said either.

*The Apostles and the brother of Yahshua:
Acts 15:29
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; [a]if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from [a]meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”


*The risen Messiah:

Revelation 2:14
14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

Revelation 2:20
20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

Paul:
1 Corinthians 8:4
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that [a]there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

Paul didn't say it was ok to eat it nor does he promote immorality.

Yahshua also picked Judas

Judas is nothing like Paul:

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Luke writes that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit and if God felt Paul deserved that then who are we to deny it?



Acts 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Acts 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Here through the power of the HS, Paul heals a cripple who never walked in his life.



Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Here Luke calls Paul an Apostle.


Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, the One raising Him from the dead,


Paul is indeed a true Apostle of Christ.


Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Credit for the miracles was given to God, being accomplished through Paul and Barnabas.


Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.


Luke writes of Paul having a vision from the Lord.


Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Paul casts out a demon in Christ's name, and the demon is cast out.


Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Luke writes that Paul preached Christ died and rose from the dead.


Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Yet another miracle God worked through Paul.


Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Paul casting out evil spirits and healing!

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Here Christ says that Paul will be made a minister.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

No red herrings in this thread please. I have not dismissed anything Christ said either.

I don't see comparing textual criticism to dispensationalism as avenues to preconceived doctrine as a red herring. It is assumed Paul's writings are canonical because 1700 years ago a Roman Emperor declared them so. Where is Paul spoken of in Scripture? Exclude him writing about himself and his friend Luke and what do you have, maybe one mention in 2Peter whose authorship is suspect? Yet Yahshua is mentioned in virtually every book of Scripture.

Paul didn't say it was ok to eat it nor does he promote immorality.

Paul said idols are nothing, yet don't offend a weaker brother, so if no one is looking, chow down.

Judas is nothing like Paul:

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Peter writes that Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit and if God felt Paul deserved that then who are we to deny it?



Acts 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
Acts 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Here through the power of the HS, Paul heals a cripple who never walked in his life.



Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Here Peter calls Paul an Apostle.


Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, the One raising Him from the dead,


Paul is indeed a true Apostle of Christ.


Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Credit for the miracles was given to God, being accomplished through Paul and Barnabas.


Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.


Peter writes of Paul having a vision from the Lord.


Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Paul casts out a demon in Christ's name, and the demon is cast out.


Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Peter writes that Paul preached Christ died and rose from the dead.


Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Yet another miracle God worked through Paul.


Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Paul casting out evil spirits and healing!

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Here Christ says that Paul will be made a minister.

Do you have anything not written by Paul and his friend Luke?
However, I am not questioning Paul, I am questioning the modern Christian interpretation of Paul's message.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't see comparing textual criticism to dispensationalism as avenues to preconceived doctrine as a red herring.

Anything outside of scripture concerning Paul is a red herring. I have Luke and Peter vouching for Paul as well as all the witnesses Luke also mentioned who can attest that God worked miracles through Paul as a true Apostle.

It is assumed Paul's writings are canonical because 1700 years ago a Roman Emperor declared them so. Where is Paul spoken of in Scripture? Exclude him writing about himself and his friend Luke and what do you have, maybe one mention in 2Peter whose authorship is suspect? Yet Yahshua is mentioned in virtually every book of Scripture.

So? All I need is one disciple to vouch for Luke and your argument is debunked before it even started.

Paul said idols are nothing, yet don't offend a weaker brother, so if no one is looking, chow down.

Idols are nothing. Unclean foods were made clean by God. I assume you disagree but it is nevertheless true. We can pray over food that was made unclean through a religious practice even food meant for a false idol and that food is as pure as God is.

Do you have anything not written by Paul and his friend Luke?

Yes, Peter but Luke is enough to validate Paul.

However, I am not questioning Paul, I am questioning the modern Christian interpretation of Paul's message.

IMO you are doing both. Here are some questions. I answered yours, please answer mine.

Is Paul a true Apostle or false?
Did God use Paul to work many wonderful miracles?
Did Paul contradict Christ ever?
Did Christ meet with Paul on that road to Damascus, and did it happen the way Luke writes?

 

[St_Worm2]

Anything outside of scripture concerning Paul is a red herring. I have Luke and Peter vouching for Paul as well as all the witnesses Luke also mentioned who can attest that God worked miracles through Paul as a true Apostle.

Luke, other early Christians, and the Apostles are certainly great witnesses, but as I believe has already been mentioned, the most important Ones "vouching" for St. Paul are the very Ones who pressed him into service, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. Surely we need no one else to vouch for him (and yet there are many who do ). Here, from Acts, is some of what Yeshua and the Holy Spirit have to say concerning Paul:

"Saul said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” Acts 9:5-6

"The Lord said to Ananias, “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel." Acts 9:15​

"Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Acts 13:1-2​

Yours and His,
David

 

[ewq1938]

The only thing is we only have Peter, Luke, Paul's own testimony, the other Apostles, and Christ and the Holy Spirit. If only we had more...

Luke, other early Christians, and the Apostles are certainly great witnesses, but as I believe has already been mentioned, the most important Ones "vouching" for St. Paul are the very Ones who pressed him into service, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit. Surely we need no one else to vouch for him (and yet there are many who do ). Here, from Acts, is some of what Yeshua and the Holy Spirit have to say concerning Paul:

"Saul said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” Acts 9:5-6

"The Lord said to Ananias, “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel." Acts 9:15​

"Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Acts 13:1-2​

Yours and His,
David

 

[HebrewVaquero]

Here are some questions. I answered yours, please answer mine.

Is Paul a true Apostle or false?

According to who?:
Paul and Luke his traveling buddy? Yes
A suspected forged 2Peter? Yes
According to the Apostles in Acts 1:12-26? No
According to Yahshua in Rev 21:13-15? Inconclusive, yet it is clear: there are only 12 apostles
According to God and the Holy Spirit? Inconclusive
According to me? Inconclusive

Did God use Paul to work many wonderful miracles?

Were miracles worked? Yes
According to Paul and Luke, Yes, however from God? In light of Yahshua's words concerning antichrists coming in His name, it is inconclusive if these miracles were from God.

Did Paul contradict Christ ever?

According to the simple face value of scripture?
A resounding YES!
Although with some effort and deeper study Paul's words can be forced into agreement with Yahshua's

Did Christ meet with Paul on that road to Damascus, and did it happen the way Luke writes?

Outside Luke and Paul; who knows?


It is painfully obvious you seek approval of Paul's message by seeking approval of Paul, this is where you and I differ; I seek approval of Paul's message by comparing Paul's MESSAGE to the Torah, Prophets, Writings and to the words of Yahshua. Need more be said?

 

[ewq1938]

According to who?:

You know who. I am asking YOU questions.

According to the Apostles in Acts 1:12-26? No

At first they were scared but in time they knew it was true.

According to Yahshua in Rev 21:13-15? Inconclusive, yet it is clear: there are only 12 apostles

It doesn't say that. All it says is there are 12 names of Apostles. Obvious a certain group of Apostles, likely the first 12 but in no sense does it limit Apostles to only 12.

Anyone who doubts what Luke writes is not going to have a sound opinion on this topic IMO.

Were miracles worked? Yes
According to Paul and Luke, Yes, however from God? In light of Yahshua's words concerning antichrists coming in His name, it is inconclusive if these miracles were from God.

Again, you deny Luke which makes me not trust your opinion. You are too eager to toss out scripture because you are letting your denominational beliefs cloud your vision.

It is painfully obvious you seek approval of Paul's message by seeking approval of Paul, this is where you and I differ; I seek approval of Paul's message by comparing Paul's MESSAGE to the Torah, Prophets, Writings and to the words of Yahshua. Need more be said?

Wrong. I accept and believe in all of scripture. You don't. That means there is no use in discussing this further. Anyone who denies scripture is automatically disqualified IMO.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi HV, so I can understand where you are coming from, how do you believe we are "saved", by grace through faith apart from works, by keeping Torah, a combination of the two, or in some other manner?

Thanks. I don't like putting you on the spot like this, so if you'd prefer not to answer for whatever reason, then just forget about it. I'm interested because the Hebrew Christian congregation I used to be part of had no problem with anything Paul taught and believed that Torah keeping, like any other work we do, was the "result" of being saved, not the cause.

Yours and His,
David

 

[KingdomIncreseGuy]

Somehow I overlooked that one. Thanks!

Also many people want to deny the working of the gifts of the spirit and the speaking of tongues. Bear in mind that this post was originally started over a guy who swore satan blinded paul and all of his teachings were a distraction from what jesus revealed to the disciples, implying that there is extra book that we are some how unaware of. the guy then qouted jesus and told a fellow member to " get behind me satan" because the guy told him the scriptures of paul were true.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a thread for Theologicalseeker to discuss the link and whether what Paul taught in his letters is contrary to what Jesus taught in the Gospels. This is open for anyone if they want. I'll post my response later.

Here's the link to the article in question:

http://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul/

"All scripture is given by inspiration from God and is to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16.

No such thing as a war between Jesus and Paul.

 

[BobRyan]

I also don't think there is any reason to say that God gave Paul a NEW Gospel, which is what the article claims.

Paul made it clear that the Gospel that he taught; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, was given to him by the Lord Jesus himself, and that anyone who taught any other Gospel should be condemned to hell.

End of story

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Paul clearly qualifies his "yes" by saying that it should never be done in certain circumstances (1 Corinthians 10:28). I have forgotten where Yeshua addresses this (to abstain from eating food sacrificed to idols, that is). Please give me the verse reference so I can find it again. Thanks

How about a good lexicon/concordance?
Jesus makes mention of that in Revelation 2

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...a=food+sacrificed+idols&t=NIV#s=s_primary_0_1
"food" AND "sacrificed" AND "idols" occurs in 9 verses in the NIV.

Eze 16:20

“ ‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough?

Eze 23:37

for they have committed adultery and blood is on their hands. They committed adultery with their idols; they even sacrificed their children, whom they bore to me, as food for them.

Act 15:29

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Act 21:25

As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

1Co 8:1

Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

1Co 8:4

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”

1Co 8:7

But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

Rev 2:14

Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

Rev 2:20

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.



.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If I'm allowed to be involved, I'd like to register my opinion. I say that there is no contradiction between Jesus' teachings and Paul's.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Part of the issue is how can we be certain Paul carries the same authority as the disciples of Yeshua? Another thing is that the gospels quote Yeshua, while Paul very rarely does. Paul also makes it clear, at times, that he is speaking his own opinion, but very rarely claims to be speaking directly for Yeshua. I am not speaking against Paul, but Christianity generally doesn't deal honestly with the issues surrounding their Paul-alone doctrines.

However, Peter and other apostles acknowleged Paul as a fellow apostle, so that goes right out the window.

Christianity deals very honestly with Paul.

What do you specifically have as 'issues' around Paul's writings? Or would you rather be vague and just say their are issues. If you have nothing specific, than I don't count that as anything against Paul other than personal opinion.

 

[ewq1938]

There is a huge difference that isn't being understood here. Many that ate meat sacrificed to idols did so because they believed the meat would be magically altered and thus more beneficial to their bodies ie: the meat was made special by the false god the idol represented. Those that knew there was no such thing as a real idol/god knew that all meat is simply meat and does not go through any such magical change so a Christian could eat this meat without disobeying the command not to eat meat sacrificed to an idol in the sense of thinking it was more special meat because it was somehow "blessed" by the false god the idol represented. The idol represented an imaginary god and those that truly believe the meat was made special clearly believe that false god is actually real. This was a big problem for those who were pagans and believe in this, then converted to Christianity but had one foot in both religions.

So, it was wrong for a Christian to eat meat sacrificed to an idol IF they believed the idol changed the meat to make it better somehow because they shows faith in this false idol/god.

But, it was NOT WRONG for a Christian to eat the same meat as long as everyone present knew it was just meat and the idol/god was false and they did not eat it in honor of the idol/god but simply ate it because they had opportunity to eat it. This was not to be done in front of those that thought the meat was special because it would be wrong to in any way encourage that idea that the meat was more special after being sacrificed to an idol/god. Paul was teaching on a high level regarding these meats and there are many that simply don't understand what he is actually talking about, 2Pe_3:15-16.


Rev_2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


What we find here are those who believed in the idol/god and believed the meat was altered, and they committed adultery all in honor of the false idol/god.




Gill:

1 Corinthians 8:7
Howbeit, there is not in every man that knowledge,.... The apostle is not speaking of Heathens, in whom there was no knowledge of the one true God, the author of all things, and of the one Lord Jesus, the only saviour and Redeemer; but of Christians, in whom there was the knowledge of these things, but not in all of them; the knowledge of this, that an idol was nothing; for though they knew that an idol was not God, and had no true deity in it, nor was it any true representation of God, yet fancied that it had an influence upon food that was offered to it, to defile it, and render it unclean, so that it ought not to be eaten; and since there were such persons that were so ignorant and weak, it became those who had more knowledge to be careful how they laid stumblingblocks in the way of such, to the prejudice of their consciences: that there were such, the apostle affirms,

for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour, eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; that is, there were some persons even at that very time, though they had been so long converted from Heathenism to Christianity, yet had such an opinion of an idol, that they really thought in their own consciences, that there were something in an idol, they could not well tell what, that defiled meats offered to it, and made them unlawful to be eaten; and yet, through the influence of the example of others, were prevailed upon to eat of them, having at the same time a notion of such food, as if it was not common food, but had received some virtue from the idol; and not without some regret, and uneasiness of mind, as being polluted with it. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read, συνηθεια "through custom of the idol"; and so the Ethiopic version seems to have read: and the sense is, that some having been formerly accustomed to worship idols, and to eat things offered to them, as having received some virtue from them, still retained an opinion, that there was some difference between such meats and others.

And their conscience being weak is defiled; because such act against the dictates of their own conscience; which, though weak, is binding, and sinned against, defiles, according to the rules given by the apostle, Rom_14:14.

1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.


Gill:

1 Corinthians 8:8
But meat commendeth us not to God,.... These words are said by the apostle, either as expressing the argument of such as had knowledge in favour of themselves, that what they did was a thing indifferent, by which they were made neither better nor worse; nor did they look upon it as meritorious, or expect any favour from God on account of it, and therefore were not to be blamed for using their liberty in the manner they did: or else they are spoken by him as his own sense: and the meaning is, that eating of meat, any sort of meat, and so that which is offered to idols, or abstinence from it, neither one nor the other recommends any to the love and favour of God; לא מקרבא, "does not bring near", or give access to God, as the Syriac version renders the phrase; does not ingratiate any into his affectionate regards, or make them acceptable unto him:

for neither if we eat are we the better; or "abound", not in earthly but spiritual things, in the graces of the Spirit, and particularly in the esteem and good will of God, upon which such an action can have no influence:

neither if we eat not are we the worse; or are deficient; meaning not in temporal things, but, as before, in spiritual; true grace and piety are not a whit the less; nor are such persons less in the love and favour of God, which is not to be known and judged of by any such action, or the omission of it.


1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.


Gill:

1 Corinthians 8:9
But take heed lest by any means,.... This is either a reply to the instance of such as argued in favour of eating things offered to idols; or a limitation and explanation of the apostle's own concession, that it made a man, with respect to the favour of God, neither better nor worse: yet care should be taken, lest

this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak; he owns they had a liberty, or a right, or power, as the word may be rendered, of eating, or not eating, as they pleased; but then they ought to be cautious, lest they should be the means of offending, or causing to offend, such who were weak in the faith, and had not that knowledge of Christian liberty they had: not the use of their power and liberty is here denied, but the abuse of it is guarded against; for though the action itself was indifferent, yet as it might be used, it might be sinful, being attended with very bad consequences, such as hereafter mentioned.

How about a good lexicon/concordance?
Jesus makes mention of that in Revelation 2

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...a=food+sacrificed+idols&t=NIV#s=s_primary_0_1
"food" AND "sacrificed" AND "idols" occurs in 9 verses in the NIV.

Eze 16:20

“ ‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough?

Eze 23:37

for they have committed adultery and blood is on their hands. They committed adultery with their idols; they even sacrificed their children, whom they bore to me, as food for them.

Act 15:29

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Act 21:25

As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

1Co 8:1

Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

1Co 8:4

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”

1Co 8:7

But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

Rev 2:14

Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality.

Rev 2:20

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.



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