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Jesus isn't eternal, he was created (Proverbs 8:22,30)

Discussion in 'Controversial Theology (Christians only)' started by yogosans14, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. yogosans14

    yogosans14 Newbie

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    Taking into account where it mentions in 22 ''The Lord made me in the beginning of His way;before His works of old'' and in 24- ''When there were no depths, I was born'' and in 30- ''Then I was beside Him a master builder''. These scriptures prove that God and Jesus are separate, and Jesus even says it Himself, this scripture also backs up what is mentioned in Col 1:15...''He is the image or likeness of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation''. Do not these scriptures tell us that Jesus was created or born, so therefore dispel the Trinity theory that Jesus is God?
     
  2. Ronald

    Ronald Newbie

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  3. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    Jesus is the Alpha and Omega

    If Jesus were created the statement is nonsense:

    Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  4. yogosans14

    yogosans14 Newbie

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    ALPHA AND OMEGA

    These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.
    While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation 1:1 shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in Re 1 verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
    The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.
    The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; Re 22 verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, Re 22 verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of Re 22 verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of Re 22 verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of Re 22 verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in Re 22 verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”
    The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.
     
  5. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    You need to document your cut and pastes. In this case this is from BIBLIOTECA ONLINE Watchtower

    Charles Taze Russell was not too swift at greek.

    From my lectures on JWs (used with permission from me to me)

     
  6. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann I left Mormonism for Christ

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    Are you trying to tell us that Jesus created Himself before He existed?

    Colossians 1
    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Ephesians 5
    23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
     
  7. yogosans14

    yogosans14 Newbie

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    No Jehovah God created him!

    15 He is the image+ of the invisible+ God, the firstborn+ of all creation; 16 because by means of him+ all [other]* things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.+ All [other] things have been created through him+ and for him. 17

    Jesus was Jehovahs master worker!
     
  8. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    Kind of an administrative assistant, eh.

    Arias tried this years ago "There is a time when Jesus was not." This is warmed over error.
     
  9. Ronald

    Ronald Newbie

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    Figures ... a Jehovah Witness, that explains the misinterpretation of scripture. Of course they believe that Jesus is Michael and therefore a created being. They do what He says, obedience is key with JW's, because they think you have to "earn" your salvation! But they do not understand that only God can remove the sins (past, present and future) of the world. You have to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent to do that. Angels do not have this power or knowledge, Jesus does because He is the Almighty God. Jehovah is a made up name from YHWH. Masorites added vowels a thousand years ago taken from Adonai and inserted them. Yaweh is more likely, yet Yeshua (Jesus) is the name that every knee will bow: "so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth." Phil 2:10
    Charles Taze Russell came out of the Seventh Day Adventist church and went rogue. They tried to get acceptance as a denomination but were rejected because of their many false doctrines -so they segregated themselves from the body of Christ, changing doctrines and finally it was Fredrick Franz who translated the New World Translation in the 50's, the only bible that has ever been translated to conform to the beliefs of the JW's. Fredreick only had two years of Greek and in a court of law could not translate one Hebrew verse.
    It's also interesting that it is a documented fact that they celebrated birthdays, holidays and wore crosses around their necks in the early 1900's.

    I feel sorry for JW's, because they knock on doors for 200 million hours a year and the growth of their org is at a snails pace. 8 million in over hundred years is proof that God is not growing this organization. Proof lies in the fruit. Conversly, their was about 500 million Christians in 1900 and now 2.3 billion --that's growth. That's an example of God at work through his church (both Catholic and Prostestant). Are we to believe that after 2000 years only 8 million are actually saved and the rest of Christianity got it wrong, so God decided to send Charles Taze Russell to start the true church to set the course right? It's not even funny, it's sad.
    Aside from all that, salvation is a free gift! You don't earn it by following a legalistic system. To think you must endure the Great Tribulation and then 1000 years before you can receive eternal life is Satan's lie. You can have it now. Our salvation is secure and sealed once we believe in Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Newbie

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    [
    This is an example of adding to the scripture what isn't there! The word "other" was added to the NWT. If you follow the context of the passage there is nothing other implied. All things were created by him and through him. If you follow through to verse 18, firstborn means "from the dead". "a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,"Youngs literal translation
    "For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." vs.19,20
    He was resurrected from the dead so we could be born again as we are when we believe. (John 3:3)
    Another thing, do you really think that the world got it wrong about the cross? If you go to Greece, ask them what stauros means. All the crosses all over the planet ... Do you really think that the symbol of the cross , representing the most important event in history is wrong? They got it wrong? NO, you got it wrong, along with a lot of other things. I must stop here.
     
  11. Imagican

    Imagican Newbie

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    Untrue. Only if you allow 'trinity' to BLOCK you from seeing what this REALLY means.

    God is 'Alpha and Omega'. He is the ONE and ONLY 'true God'. Therefore, being the ONLY, He is 'Alpha and Omega'.

    Jesus Christ is the ONLY 'begotten Son of God'. FIRST begotten, LAST begotten, therefore: Jesus IS the 'alpha and omega'.

    Not only was Jesus Christ created, we can see through scripture that He was 'born and then grew up'. For we can CLEARLY SEE through His own words that He LEARNED from the Father. He STATED that the example that He offered He learned from WATCHING His Father.

    ALL indications from the Bible are that Satan is older than Christ. For Christ states that He witnessed Satan FALLING from HEAVEN. But not a word is mentioned about Christ KNOWING anything about Satan PREVIOUS to his fall.

    And here is a GOOD one for those that are unaware due to 'trinity':

    Revelation 12:

    Read it. Understand it.

    I'm NOT going to argue about it. But there is MUCH to be learned from this chapter of the Bible. Here's a HINT. This is NOT a Revelation of the FUTURE, but of THE PAST.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  12. Imagican

    Imagican Newbie

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    And GOD is the Head of Christ.

    What many, (including yourself HERE), indicate is that they are UNAWARE of what the scripture claiming ALL THINGS really means. Christ did NOT 'create Himself', NOR did He create GOD. What Christ created so far as the instruction GIVEN TO US is that which PERTAINS to US. Isn't it obvious that when someone is given information to record that information is based on information concerning THOSE TO WHOM IT IS WRITTEN.

    We are offered very little information concerning eternity BACKWARDS. But you certainly DO NOT believe that 'In the beginning............' means GOD'S beginning????

    So, I ask YOU: what took place in heaven for the ETERNITY BEFORE 'in the beginning......."? You don't know any better than I or anyone else. For we simply have not been offered THAT information. As far as WE know, God has created a hundred planets JUST like this one. Or a THOUSAND, a MILLION, a BILLION???????? We simply DO NOT KNOW.

    But we have been informed that God is ETERNAL and you certainly don't believe that before ' in the beginning........' God was just sitting in.........NO WHERE twiddling His thumbs???

    So Christ OBVIOUSLY did NOT 'create' EVERYTHING. But everything pertaining to the READER: you and I.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  13. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann I left Mormonism for Christ

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    There was not anything made that Christ didn't make! The ONLY Savior is God.

    Isaiah 43 NWT
    “10 YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

    There is only One God, Jehovah and only Jehovah God can be the savior, there is no savior besides Jehovah.

    Titus 2 NWT
    "13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus."
     
  14. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist & Gnostic Christian

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    Proverbs is not Torah or Neviim, and Paul's letters are nothing but one Pharisee's commentary.
     
  15. JonasZ

    JonasZ Newbie

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    They do a wonderful job of preaching and teaching the Bible in a very practical way. That is to actually apply the Bible to your daily life and find a solution to the real problems we have to deal with. They have a web site JW.org where you can find a wealth of information on many subjects. They are also very international and have their material translated into many different languages and dialects. I wish other Christian Organizations were doing as good of a job of getting the good news out to those who need it.
     

  16. Trinity is misunderstanding based on not seeing that the spirit is NOT a physical object that one can count ... and that the aspects of God even in this earth are far more than three there are tens of thousands of begotten Sons of God , images of Christ , saints perfected in Love who will rule the masses under Jesus as king of these kings and high priest of these immortal priests of the order of Melxhizedek - Jude 1:14... counting apects of God, those who Lovem the answer is NOT THREE but many

    but to count God thw answer is always ONE spirit, indivisible, and there ie tthe BIG lie of trinity. God is NOT a person but ONE spirit, God is NOT separate from His spirit because He is His spirit, there is no god with God, no separate holy spirit , God IS the holy spirit and is NOT physical, does not occupy space, has no time, CANNOT be counted except as being ONE whole undivided indibisible inseparable BEING , everything that is BEYOND the physical which does not END...

    so it is absurd to say God is three anythings... God is Love in Jesus AND tens of thousands of saints and God is His spirit, His spirit is God ,not two anything ...

    Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me

    this is NOT a MYSTERY
    -many people, ten of thousands , have stopped sinning to obey Jesus, repented to follow His way of Love instead of the way of sin of this world's MANY in MASS religion and politic of men's LIES about God from Satan... all sinning still follow Satan, not Jesus , so how could you expect the truth from religion of sinners led by sinners for power of men over men's beliefs? ... that is NOT Love is it ? ... see beyond mass religion of sinners because it MUST be of Satan as Jesus says Rev 13:3-4 :-

    BUT understand too what John says :-

    1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    compare this with the creation of the cherub who becomes manifest in the flesh in the earth as Satan, walks to and fro in the earth [se Job 1] and dies as a man [Ezekiel 28] for blasphemy confessed [2Thess 2:4]

    understand the difference that Satan can only sin and cause sin in the earth, whereas Jesus represents and shows the Love of God, SHOWS us God as Love WHICH TELLS US that endless being is UNDIVIDED, that God is just ONE, not more than one ever, but SHOWN by tens of thousands by Love of the saints , all Sons of God begotten by God

    one cn say Satan means no more than any other man until begotten a a son of God, but Jesus is son of God from the beginning, the archetype , the conception of Love in man ...

    the difference is that God implies Love in Jesus Christ and thence to all creation -

    Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    BUT Satan only exists secondary to creation-

    Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    this is the distinction then , God [alone] can show us Love in Jesus Christ, and Satan can only show us sin IN THE WORLDS...

    thus we have that Jesus is with God from the beginning , the concept of Love is INTEGRAL to the wholeness, one-ness of God , but sin can only exist in the created world, all sin ends with the worlds... Satan [mening 'adversary' is simply a name , God hanges the names of men as they change...

    But FEW accept what Jesus says above, that ALL will accept him as KING eventually, RULING BY Love with 'rod of iron', no sin allowed, in the new earth kingdom come of the scriptures which many men pray for without understanding [denied by most religion so read the scripture]

    Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

    note that Satan too is resurrected to the new earth [Rev 20], God has not finished with men just because most are destroyed with this world -Matt 7:13

    again the point is that God is God , He CANNOT fail else He would not be God... and His METHOD of success is Love , Jesus is the means of that method, so as Jesus says, Jesus cannot fail either ... nor does Satan fail because he is part of creation and God requires that at the end he too repents and stops sinning, perfects Love in obedience to Jesus' rule by mens of baptism of fire in the lake. the third stage of baptism as described by John the baptist and the saints

    again religion of sinners MUST become lies , Jesus states this -Rev 13- so read the sxripture abd repent sins, stop sinning so that God can teach you in spirit baptism IF you want to follow Jesus, not Satan...
     
  17. Ronald

    Ronald Newbie

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  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann I left Mormonism for Christ

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    And He can feel grief.

    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    Eph. 4:30

    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph. 1:13
     
  19. yogosans14

    yogosans14 Newbie

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    "holy spirit of God"

    Why doesn't it say "God the Holy Spirit"?
    Interesting..
     
  20. Ronald

    Ronald Newbie

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