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Jesus did not "hang out" with sinners

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Aijalon, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. Aijalon

    Aijalon Sayin' it like it is

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    In a particular viewpoint, one that seems ever more popular in the 'missional' crowd, we are encouraged do more than evangelize through friendship to unbelievers, but get "messy" with them. One defense of this is Jesus' behaviour toward sinners. It is asserted that he "hung out" with prostitutes and tax collectors., so we should do radical things like go to wordly venues and hang out with sinners too.

    But did he? Is Jesus having a discussion and with a prostitute the same thing as going to a Jay-Z concert with a raving drunk, or accompanying a drug addict in their search for drugs in order to help them "stay safe". Would Jesus have personally escorted a person searching for illegal weed?

    I submit that he would not. His encounters with sinners were simply that, encounters. He spoke to them, he discussed things with them, he commanded them to "sin no more". There was absolutely no way that he came accross as tolerant of their sinful behaviour. Isn't that what we do when we attend activities that are centered around a spirit of sin? Haven't we been called OUT OF THE WORLD and into fellowship with Christ. What fellowship does light have with darkness?
     
  2. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding Legend Supporter

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    I snipped this out of another study I was doing, but I see him teaching sinners. And in order to teach them he had to receive them. But no I dont see Jesus doing a drug runs with them or any such thing.

    This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

    Behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

    How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

    Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.

    They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Paul seems to correct a misunderstanding on this it seems, saying...

    I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators

    Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters;

    For then must ye needs go out of the world.

    But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


    Whereas they did eat with what the Pharisees (who were actually covetous, Luke 16:14) understood as sinners

    Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

    Then goes right into a parable about more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. Just as it speaks of how good and upright the LORD is in teaching sinners in the way, and elsewhere of the very goodness of God leading us to repentance thats how I am catching it.
     
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  3. justavisitor

    justavisitor Newbie

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    I personally do not like going to concerts nor have i yet gone but I am told I am not responsible for others sinning[bless and do not curse]
    If my intentions are good to experience something new the sin is on them I did not tell them to sin
    It is more reasonable that people will like Christianity if they see it as practical and reasonable and life giving[bless and do not curse]
    Maybe you are right we should not hang out with them if they will perish or be damned[bless and do not curse]
    But it is my view that God has no interest in those who follow Him out of fear but they do it because it is right[bless and do not curse]

    "if any man draws back my soul has no pleasure in him"

    People will get no reward for being chaste because of fear the only reward they get would be their salvation Provided they love everyone[bless and do not curse]

    St Paul says I did not say not to keep company with the sinners of the world[bless and do not curse]
    If that is forbidden then so many other things are forbidden and hopeless people have already become lost simply for being among worldly people[bless and do not curse]
    Perhaps we should all be monks ?
    Are they more spiritual than others ?

    Are people going to come to Christ because they see someone separating themselves from others ?


    Now if you was a sinner and someone came to your concert would you be complacent and put the blame on others it's your fault for making the concert and you would also be responsible for all the misbehaviour of others[bless and do not curse]

    Whatever is not of faith is sin[bless and do not curse]
    Not that the thing is sin we have responsibility to learn ourselves but if you have no faith it is sin[bless and do not curse]

    I would also like to know the answer perhaps I am wrong maybe we are responsible for others sinning[bless and do not curse]

    Nonetheless people go to have a social life and to live their life

    I would think it is probably not a sin

    All things are lawful for me but not all things are helpful (for me?)
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
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  4. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Newbie

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    He didn't have to acknowledge the woman at the well, just go by without saying anything. He actively sought her out. And the little guy in the tree, Zekias?--He didn't have to acknowledge him, just walk under Him, and Jesus basically invited Himself to his house. No, He did not go on a drug run with anyone, nor was He a pimp for anyone. But not one single deciple was a Christian before He met them--He seeked them out and taught them. He went to the wedding feast--not the local night club, but it was a party. He was with Peter who would not be converted until after His resurrection. The people He healed were considered sinners by the rest of the population, he went were the demonics were and healed them, he touched lepers--totally unclean thing to do- and healed them. He was no hermit, keeping Himself away from sinners--all were sinners.
     
  5. justavisitor

    justavisitor Newbie

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    If it was a sin can't God have a bit of pity on us and send us a prophet so we can know the exact truth who still forgives us when we sin but do it no more
    We do not even know if our voices are from God
    Unless of course those who know the bible know it is not wrong
    How could the prodigal son be saved after all the sins he did ?
     
  6. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding Legend Supporter

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    Johns teaching was manifested in Zacchaeus if you listen to what he says (and after whom Jesus comes) in the picture.

    Zacchaeus being a cheif publican (of the publicans) which Jesus said believed John is spoken of, For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Even, And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

    What I thought was kool, was the "Lord behold I give HALF" thing Zacahaeus said, as John said he that hath TWO coats give to him that hath NONE, which is HALF as shown in Zacchaeus. Not to get technical, its just the principal of John can be heard somwhat in Zacchaeus words. Given John baptism was unto repentance, and godly sorrow worketh repentance UNTO salvation (thus we see, "TO DAY salvation is come to this house") as said to Zacchareus. I just see it as a picture, even as John is sent before Jesus, and the outworking of Johns teaching (unto repentance) in Zacchareus shown in that same patern (betwen the two).

    And then again the parable which speaks of the publicans and harlots going into the kingdom of God before you

    Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

    Theres so much more in that picture I think is awesome.

    Then you can catch a picture of worldly sorrow verses godly sorrow in the picture of the the rich young ruler.
     
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  7. thesunisout

    thesunisout brother

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    It's fine to have friendships with sinners, but we have to remember we are the face of Christ to the lost. We cannot even be seeming to be putting a stamp of behavior on sin. This doesn't mean we are responsible for being the sin-police in someones life, but it does mean that we should live out that upright example so they can see what a life lived for the Lord looks like. It's an impossible thing to get a lost person to stop sinning, but it is a very possible to live a godly example and let the Holy Spirit do His work. We should be a voice of advice, comfort, and stability in a persons life, and certainly not getting "messy" with them. Getting immersed in their sinful lifestyle will lead them to think is that there isn't anything different about us after all.
     
  8. justavisitor

    justavisitor Newbie

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    I think God just wants us not to love sin in our own hearts. If something is offensive we leave it. If you go to a party with friends and people are doing something offensive it is best to leave. By staying you might have shown to God you like the sin but its not about appearance its just that God has recorded your hatred of sin in His book and can take the veil over the heart of the lost sinner by your prayers. Also people will be drawn to you as the bible says "When a man's ways please the LORD He makes even His enemies be at peace with Him" they will witness your godliness one day perhaps


    "If anyone sees a brother sin a sin which does not lead to death...."

    We may stop a person from sinning by avoiding the place in the first place but God will still hold the offending person guilty for even thinking of sinning if we come there..
    We must be tempted in all things before being approved by the LORD.

    I know I am making this up but thats how I live my life

    Now I will use the bible to support the above though it is vague

    2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

    "Blessed is the man who endures temptation for he only(made this part up) will receive the crown of life which the LORD has promised to those who love Him"

    But perhaps they can not have their sins erased so it is better to avoid them so they do not sin


    Anyway I know I am making this up but I like it and that is my life..

    I don't want to be a speechless and shy guy

    Likewise if we look at pornography one person is not being delivered by our prayers

    Its all about what God sees and not man

    Was it a sin for dinah to see the daughters of the foreign land?

    Also part of enjoying work is being able to communicate with your workmates and being familiar with them

    It is a better a bible expert enlightens us.

    If we can avoid these parties and do something else useful that would be good too but just as a virgin can not condemn a married woman and a married woman can not condemn a virgin it is the same
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  9. If Not For Grace

    If Not For Grace Legend-but then so's Keith Richards

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    The religious leaders of the day sure thought he spent to much time in too close a quarters with em. They said

    "The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, 'He's a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!' But wisdom is shown to be right by its results" Matthew 11:19
     
  10. Matariki

    Matariki Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and MIND

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    Jesus's disciples were sinners, and as far as the new testament goes, he hung out with them allot.
     
  11. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding Legend Supporter

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    All men are sinners, while were yet (and without strength) Christ died for the same.

    Still Paul distinuishes between those of the world "without" and those "within" called "a brother" also

    But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
     
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih

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    1 Corinthians 5:9-10,12-13a
    I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world ... For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges.


    Paul seems to think that it is ok to "hang out" with the immoral people of this world... I think the important distinction is who we are trying to serve when we are "hanging out". If its anything but Christ then it is the wrong reasons however if Christ is at the forefront of our decision making than I don't think we need to worry about where that leads us.
     
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  13. miamited

    miamited Ted

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    Hi aijalon,

    That is always a tough issue. And as you say, our 'missional' mindset can get us in some very difficult places. However, I agree with you.

    One has pointed out that it was 'said' of Jesus that he ate with sinners and publicans. There was a lot 'said' of Jesus, especially by the Jews, that wasn't 'in fact' true. For example: he is the Messiah and the Son of God, but you won't find any of the Jews 'saying' that about him. They in fact called him a liar and a blasphemer. Are we then to go out and say of Jesus that he was a liar and a blasphemer because that is what was 'said' of him? In truth, unless Jesus were to go out on a rock and eat by himself, he would have always been eating with sinners and publicans.

    But, I agree that we should be careful about how far into the sinful lifestyles of the lost we should insinuate ourselves in teaching the truth. For example: the woman caught in sin was brought to Jesus. He didn't go and seek her out. He didn't go into brothels and proclaim the righteousness of God. When he ate with the 'sinners and publicans', as far as we know, that is based on one incident where Matthew brought several of his friends to hear and see Jesus. Jesus didn't go out and stand at the tax collector's booths of these men and preach the gospel. Most of the accounts of Jesus 'rubbing shoulders' with what the Jews called the 'sinners' were incidents that came up in the normal course of his teaching when they were brought to him. The Jews, of course, latched on to these singular incidences because it bolstered their claims of his wickedness.

    So, yes, I would be careful about gathering a crowd of 'christians' to go stand in the doorway of an abortion clinic, raucous and vulgar concert or house of prostitution. As I understand it, Jesus did not do a lot of seeking in vulgar places, those who were lost. The claims made of his eating with 'sinners and publicans' were just as valid as the claims that he was a liar and a blasphemer

    That is my humble understanding of the reality of Jesus' efforts to teach sinners and publicans. Yes, we should always be prepared to give the reason for the hope that is in us, but no, I don't think the example of the Scriptures ever shows that we need insinuate ourselves into the places where the lost gratify their lusts. I believe this is further exemplified as we continue to read how Paul and Peter and others spread the gospel. If we are to believe that these men were doing exactly what Jesus had instructed them to do, then we would be hard pressed to find times that they did such things.

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  14. Aijalon

    Aijalon Sayin' it like it is

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    @miamited,
    so who would you say might be the "prostitutes and publicans" of today's era?

    @Fireinfolding,
    and who would you say are those immoral brothers with whom we are to abvoid?

    Yes, the befriending sinners that seems to be advocated as "radical" today is of the mindset that, since the Gospel is offensive, we will not offend by preaching it, but we will just stand by and pal around with people in their sinful ways, and even help enable them in their sin (so to speak) by serving them. In so doing we will, hopefully, win them over to faith in Christ just by the peace and joy we give off.

    Sadly for me and many Christians that have attempted this type of ministry I think the effect is that we become demoralized and tainted by the world.

    I don't see Jesus observing sinful behavior without calling it out. If Jesus were at a rock concert, would he sort of clap his hands and sway to the music but not sing the bad words? I think he would start casting demons out of people right and left until the people at the concert cast him out on the street.
     
  15. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding Legend Supporter

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    Whom does Paul say you mean?

    He tells us in the verse

    But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    Highlighted them in blue for you
     
  16. SilenceInMotion

    SilenceInMotion New Member

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    The Pharisees were all bang and no bullet. They made their selves majesty, drinking the finest wine and being around the highest of the prestige- it was all showbiz. Jesus came and denounced all that nonsense, bringing Truth and humility.

    In fact, it says a lot about mankind in general- it was a primary factor in why he was crucified.
     
  17. wordsoflife

    wordsoflife New Member

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    I think the fact that we're missing out on is that we're all sinners. So, if Jesus did not "hang out" with sinners then he was a loner because he was the only one among them who was not a sinner. Jesus did in fact hang out with sinners and the scripture tells us thus. But, no he did not participate in their sinful behavior.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  18. Sav3dbygrac3

    Sav3dbygrac3 Newbie

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    You are the company you keep. A lot of people think if they hang out with a bad bunch then they will have a good influence on them, but the opposite usually happens, the bad bunch ends up having an influence on you. However, we cant be such goody goodies that we cant even be around someone. How are you to witness to people if you cant be around them?
     
  19. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    The question now is...did they remain sinners?

    How can you still be a sinner if you are a new creation?

    Paul speaks directly on this topic

    Romans 5

    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

    So therefore, John also correlates this fact in his 1st epistle chapter 3

    9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

    Contemporary Christianity explicitly rejects this verse, marking it as a falsehood. My question is why? The answer I am convicted of is "Because then I wouldn't have to admit I'm not really saved, but I want to believe that I am saved even though I am still in fact dead in sin."

    We reject the truth to drink the lie so we can still feel secure and safe while in sin. You can thank the devil for that cup....for it is the cup that leads to wrath.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  20. wordsoflife

    wordsoflife New Member

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    Seeing what falsehood that many others post only strengthens my faith and makes me all the more glad that I am a Lutheran. The answer is No, they did not remain sinners but only because their sin was covered by the blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary. You are a miserable sinful being the very fact that you are still breathing is a testimony to the fact that you are still a sinner. God is perfect and you fall short of his perfection. Therefore, you are still a sinner and without the work of the cross of Christ to make you righteous you are without hope. If you think that you can be righteous by obeying the law good luck with that my friend. You should live out your days on earth in fear being thankful to a gracious God that he is willing to accept you a poor miserable sinner. Apart from the crucifixion of Jesus Christ we will die in our sins.


    1 John 1:10
    If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012