Jesus Christ died for the elect

[RisingSpirit]

It says nothing about who is saved? but it says that those who believe in His son will be saved ... I don't understand ... Doesn't John 3:16 say enough? Doesn't it already explain who is saved?

Those are the Elects and the Elects were already chosen before the world was created. Those that were given to Jesus by God were the elects. Jesus died for the Elects, only and not those that are unregenrated meaning never were chosen before Planet Earth existed. It's all in the Bible for the serious reader. The unrengerated that chooses Jesus is a fake non elect Christian and he doesn't know it cause the arminian church never told him the truth. The fake Christian thought free will was powerful enough to over ride God's wills.

 

[sdowney717]

It says nothing about who is saved? but it says that those who believe in His son will be saved ... I don't understand ... Doesn't John 3:16 say enough? Doesn't it already explain who is saved?

From the reformation study bible.

John 3:16
3:16 God so loved the world. Some have insisted that God sent Jesus to die for the purpose of bringing salvation to everyone without exception, but only as a possibility. However, Jesus makes clear that the salvation of those whom the Father “gives me,” and only those, is not a mere possibility but an absolute certainty; “will come to me” (6:37–40; 10:14–18; 17:9). The point made by “the world” is that Christ’s saving work is not limited to one time or place but applies to the elect from all over the world. Those who do not receive the remedy God has provided in Christ will perish. It remains true that anyone who believes will not die (be separated from God) but live in God’s presence forever. See “God Is Love: Divine Goodness and Faithfulness” at Ps. 136:1.

Look up any verse and see what it says.
Table of Contents - Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

In Ephesians Paul is talking to the believers, explaining how we who believe have been chosen in Him by the Father. God always calls His children personally to Himself. When Jesus called His disciples, Jesus actually went after them, pursuing them, even over the objections of Peter who called himself a profane man and told the LORD to go away. Our God though is very determined!

Ephesians 1

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe Christ died to infallibly save those that the Father entrusted to him (refered to by Christ many times). However, some Christians don't believe that.

I'm giving them golden opportunity to provide Bible verses that specifically say that Christ died for every single individual in the human race.

Please note:

-General wording doesn't count. Why? Because even specific wording wasn't counted as sufficient evidence for Limited Atonement in the other thread (such as I die for my sheep, not all are my sheep: conclusion - I don't die for all)

(hint: kosmos is a general word, because it has 10+ definitions. I need specific words!)

I need specific, verbatim verses that say Christ died, trying to save every single individual

It should be easy!

Go!

Interesting thread, huh Skala. Trying to copy me, but just the other side? LOL

You know no Calvinist, including you, could provide any verse that clearly teaches that Christ died ONLY for the elect (so why did you start this thread???) or that He DIDN'T die for everyone.

However, I provided a verse that clearly showed that Judas was present WHEN Jesus instituted the Lord's table.

Luke 22:19-21
19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to THEM, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. 21“But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.

So, what's the conclusion? Jesus' words were for Judas as well as the other 11.

Maybe you'll deal with this passage in your thread.

 

[sdowney717]

John certainly says it in this way, however it may not be as clear as you want it.
John here is addressing the beloved, the saints.
Many people take this verse to mean all the world.
The 'we' 'us' and 'our' though is meant for the beloved to whom John is writing.

1 John 4

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

All the scriptures in the various letters are being written to believers only, not the broad wide world.

Gal 3

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree&#8221, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Since faith is a gifting from God granting to you belief to come to Jesus, you can not say the faith mentioned here was for those who would never believe the message, not being ordained, appointed to do so. John 6:65

Acts 13:48

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

The faith was given to some Gentiles by God and not others.
Truly a mystery, why one over the other, but God's will be done.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John certainly says it in this way, however it may not be as clear as you want it.
John here is addressing the beloved, the saints.
Many people take this verse to mean all the world.
The 'we' 'us' and 'our' though is meant for the beloved to whom John is writing.

Sure, when a writer of Scripture addresses believers, he speaks of Christ's dying for them. But none of those verses either SAYS or MEANS that He died ONLY or JUST for them.

And you ignored my post and what you do with Luke 22:19-21.

All the scriptures in the various letters are being written to believers only, not the broad wide world.

Again, proving nothing other than the fact that Jesus did die for them. But none of those letters either SAY or MEAN that Hid death was ONLY or JUST for them alone.

 

[sdowney717]

Also consider what Hebrews 2 says

The writer is only again speaking of God's family those in heaven and those on the earth. He is not talking about the unsaved, unelect people of the broad wide world.

10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. 12 He says,

“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.”
13 And again,

“I will put my trust in him.”
And again he says,

“Here am I, and the children God has given me."

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. (seed)

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Scripture says he does not help angels but only Abraham's children, those who by faith believe the promises of God, those who are children of the promise.

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Anyway, getting back to who Jesus helps, Jesus does not help angels, Jesus does not help unsaved, unelect people.

Jesus only helps children of the promise, Abraham's children those who have saving faith gifted to them by the Father.

It is why Jesus says in John 17

9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Jesus only ever prays, intercedes for the children of the promise, Jesus never ever prays for the world.

Heb 7

17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever..

 

[sdowney717]

Sure, when a writer of Scripture addresses believers, he speaks of Christ's dying for them. But none of those verses either SAYS or MEANS that He died ONLY or JUST for them.

And you ignored my post and what you do with Luke 22:19-21.

Again, proving nothing other than the fact that Jesus did die for them. But none of those letters either SAY or MEAN that Hid death was ONLY or JUST for them alone.

Judas has a unique consideration. Judas presence with the apostles and Jesus was to fulfill prophecy of scripture. Judas was the only one that Jesus lost of those He had.
Judas does not represent all unsaved men.

John 17

12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

and
John 6

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Jesus did not pray for Judas right?
Jesus did however pray for Peter at the last supper.
Both were present at the table.

31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

 

[GoodSpeed]

Lets assume for a moment that I am not one of the elect. (To be sure after reading some of these threads I have to wonder - no sarcasm here ... it has given me pause).
God knew this before I was even born. Yet I've lived and will live a 'Christian' life. If/when I sin I am truly remorseful not out of fear but because I want to live in his example and glorify HIM.
I have 2 children and am married and I have enjoyed a wonderful life.

I cannot understand why God would, given the enormous length of eternity, permit me this short wonderful existence to experience what I have -- which has been FAR from displeasing to Him, to then deny me his kingdom and condemn me to hell for eternity.
This sort of thinking simply does not add up - not even a little bit.

What has been stated on this and many other of these threads is that it is through the Son that one can be saved (John 3:16 -- and we seem to agree on this). Fine, then it is stated that it is only because God gives you the grace to Love Jesus that you will do so and if he doesn't give you that grace, then you will not go to Jesus so therefore, if you are already not selected prior to your birth that you will be 'elect' and given this grace, you are damned to hell.

Why can't anyone - whether out of grace or by reason/logic/fear turn to Jesus?! How is this opportunity not available to all ...

Are we actually in agreement? - it is just that everyone who finally turns to the son whether it outwardly appears is due to reason/fear/logic has actually done so because of God's given grace??

 

[Hammster]

Lets assume for a moment that I am not one of the elect. (To be sure after reading some of these threads I have to wonder - no sarcasm here ... it has given me pause).
God knew this before I was even born. Yet I've lived and will live a 'Christian' life. If/when I sin I am truly remorseful not out of fear but because I want to live in his example and glorify HIM.
I have 2 children and am married and I have enjoyed a wonderful life.

I cannot understand why God would, given the enormous length of eternity, permit me this short wonderful existence to experience what I have -- which has been FAR from displeasing to Him, to then deny me his kingdom and condemn me to hell for eternity.
This sort of thinking simply does not add up - not even a little bit.

What has been stated on this and many other of these threads is that it is through the Son that one can be saved (John 3:16 -- and we seem to agree on this). Fine, then it is stated that it is only because God gives you the grace to Love Jesus that you will do so and if he doesn't give you that grace, then you will not go to Jesus so therefore, if you are already not selected prior to your birth that you will be 'elect' and given this grace, you are damned to hell.

Why can't anyone - whether out of grace or by reason/logic/fear turn to Jesus?! How is this opportunity not available to all ...

Are we actually in agreement? - it is just that everyone who finally turns to the son whether it outwardly appears is due to reason/fear/logic has actually done so because of God's given grace??

From what I understand, godly sorrow/repentance is a major indicator of being saved.

 

[GoodSpeed]

Perhaps we are in agreement then; it is simply that what I perceive as a person 'deciding' on their own to accept Jesus (what appears outwardly as THEM taking action/decision) originates from the seed God has planted (Grace). I have simply previously overlooked Him providing the grace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Also consider what Hebrews 2 says

The writer is only again speaking of God's family those in heaven and those on the earth.

That would begin in the new paragraph, at v.10. v.9 is very clear, and following v.7-8, there is no doubt that the writer taught that Jesus Christ died for everyone. I documented how 45 translations rendered "all" in the thread "Jesus Christ died for everyone2". 25 used "everyone", 1 used "all humanity", 1 used "every single person", 3 used "every one", 6 used "every man", 1 used "every person's place", 2 used "all men", 2 used "on behalf of all" and 1 weirdly used "every thing", I guess because the word "pas" used 3 times in v.8 means everything. Only 1 out of 45 translations used "all of us", which could be used to refer to the writer's audience of Jewish believers (tough luck all us Gentiles, huh!), or "us" has human beings.

In any case, 44 out of 45 translations understood the writer to be speaking about everyone in humanity.

He is not talking about the unsaved, unelect people of the broad wide world.

That would be your opinion.

Scripture says he does not help angels but only Abraham's children, those who by faith believe the promises of God, those who are children of the promise.

Why do you confuse the difference between helping believers and dying for everyone?

Romans 9

There is nothing in Rom 9 or anywhere else in the Bible that tells us that Christ's death was limited in scope. Nothing.

Jesus only ever prays, intercedes for the children of the promise, Jesus never ever prays for the world.

No need to. And therefore, irrelevant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Judas has a unique consideration. Judas presence with the apostles and Jesus was to fulfill prophecy of scripture. Judas was the only one that Jesus lost of those He had.
Judas does not represent all unsaved men.

Gee, nice try, but...no dice. It's always interesting to see how Calvinists "spin" a verse when it doesn't help their "cause".

What is clear is that Jesus addressed all of them, not JUST or ONLY 11 of them, as you are trying to spin it.

Judas was clearly NOT saved, not a believer, yet Jesus was giving His body and cup for Judas as well as the others. That is clear. No indication from Scripture that his "case" was different. Yes, he fulfilled prophesy, but that doesn't get you off the hook. And Jesus didn't "really" lose him. He was never saved. Jesus was using a figure of speech in His prayer to the Father about only "losing" one. In fact, he was never "found" in the first place.

I wonder what the Arminians will say about Judas.

Jesus did not pray for Judas right?
Jesus did however pray for Peter at the last supper.
Both were present at the table.

So...what is your point? When Jesus prayed for "all who would believe", there isn't anything in that prayer that you can construe as Jesus praying that anyone will believe. In fact, He prayed for those who WOULD believe.

So your point is irrelevant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lets assume for a moment that I am not one of the elect. (To be sure after reading some of these threads I have to wonder - no sarcasm here ... it has given me pause).
God knew this before I was even born. Yet I've lived and will live a 'Christian' life. If/when I sin I am truly remorseful not out of fear but because I want to live in his example and glorify HIM.
I have 2 children and am married and I have enjoyed a wonderful life.

I cannot understand why God would, given the enormous length of eternity, permit me this short wonderful existence to experience what I have -- which has been FAR from displeasing to Him, to then deny me his kingdom and condemn me to hell for eternity.
This sort of thinking simply does not add up - not even a little bit.

What has been stated on this and many other of these threads is that it is through the Son that one can be saved (John 3:16 -- and we seem to agree on this). Fine, then it is stated that it is only because God gives you the grace to Love Jesus that you will do so and if he doesn't give you that grace, then you will not go to Jesus so therefore, if you are already not selected prior to your birth that you will be 'elect' and given this grace, you are damned to hell.

Why can't anyone - whether out of grace or by reason/logic/fear turn to Jesus?! How is this opportunity not available to all ...

Are we actually in agreement? - it is just that everyone who finally turns to the son whether it outwardly appears is due to reason/fear/logic has actually done so because of God's given grace??

You bring up valid questions, GoodSpeed, which Calvinists cannot reasonably answer (though they'll insist they have!).

The plain words of Scripture tell us that Jesus tased death for all, and 44 out of 45 translations on Biblegateway.com understood the writer as saying that He died for everyone.

But since Calvinists cannot accept that teaching, as it refutes the foundation of their theology, they have to "spin" every verse that refutes their claims.

God is love, that that love was shown for everyone when Christ died for everyone.

 

[RisingSpirit]

...The plain words of Scripture tell us that Jesus tased death for all, and 44 out of 45 translations on Biblegateway.com understood the writer as saying that He died for everyone.....

Whats the point of Jesus dying for the person going to hell or already gone to hell? Are you saying the Jesus didn't know that person was going or gone to hell and He is guessing that person might be saved meaning Those that Jesus died for are saved.

I know you'll reply back with, "We all have free will and the ability to boss God around".

Why do people think God is going to let the world run wild on it's own. Even no one can break the laws of nature. No man can change the earth’s rotations.

Total depravity is part of the laws of naturalness meaning men can't sprout wings to fly like a bird due to their nature. It's our nature not to want to be saved so Jesus steps in and saves who God picked before the Earth was created. Men can't run wild without God taking control.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Whats the point of Jesus dying for the person going to hell or already gone to hell? Are you saying the Jesus didn't know that person was going or gone to hell and He is guessing that person might be saved meaning Those that Jesus died for are saved.

Of course not. What would be absurd. Jesus, being God, is omniscient, has always known who will believe. I don't know why Calvinists continue to ask that question.

God demonstrated His love for mankind (Jn 3:16) by sacrificing His Son for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2). That payment for sin also obtained (Heb 9:21) or purchased eternal life for everyone, and gifts that life to all who believe in Him.

Can you refute any of this?

I know you'll reply back with, "We all have free will and the ability to boss God around".

That would be ridiculous.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do people think God is going to let the world run wild on it's own.

I have no idea why people think erroneous thoughts. I sure don't think that.

Even no one can break the laws of nature. No man can change the earth’s rotations.

Yes, and your point? Is this about lack of "free will"? Well, free will has never been about breaking the laws of nature, or earth's rotation.

Total depravity is part of the laws of naturalness meaning men can't sprout wings to fly like a bird due to their nature.

You're making obvious statements, with no apparent point to make. Do you have one?

It's our nature not to want to be saved so Jesus steps in and saves who God picked before the Earth was created.

Do you have a clear verse that teaches that the human nature does not want to be saved? I can give you a very clear verse about a man who wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was very clear: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

The man was not saved and wanted to be saved. Very clear.

Men can't run wild without God taking control.

It appears as if you believe that men "run wild" WHEN God takes control. Is that your position?

My position is that God is in control OVER everything, but not in control IN everything. Do you see the difference?

If God was in control IN everything, then all that occurs would be because of Him. I reject that idea.

The reason men "run wild" is because God allows them to. Free will. In fact, He kept Pharaoh alive longer than Pharaoh deserved to let him harden further.

Ex 9:15-16
15“For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16“But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.

 

[sdowney717]

Gee, nice try, but...no dice. It's always interesting to see how Calvinists "spin" a verse when it doesn't help their "cause".

What is clear is that Jesus addressed all of them, not JUST or ONLY 11 of them, as you are trying to spin it.

Judas was clearly NOT saved, not a believer, yet Jesus was giving His body and cup for Judas as well as the others. That is clear. No indication from Scripture that his "case" was different. Yes, he fulfilled prophesy, but that doesn't get you off the hook. And Jesus didn't "really" lose him. He was never saved. Jesus was using a figure of speech in His prayer to the Father about only "losing" one. In fact, he was never "found" in the first place.

I wonder what the Arminians will say about Judas.


So...what is your point? When Jesus prayed for "all who would believe", there isn't anything in that prayer that you can construe as Jesus praying that anyone will believe. In fact, He prayed for those who WOULD believe.

So your point is irrelevant.

Actually Jesus did lose Judas because He said He did.
Jesus declares that and I won't argue with Him, so you take it up with Him yourself.

All I hear from you is a lot of angry words and feelings and hatred towards Monergism, Calvinism, predestination, being called and chosen of God, and reprobation, etc...

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was appointed to his position, being chosen. And was lost. Judas most definitely is unique being the only one Jesus ever lost or ever will lose that had been chosen and Judas was apportioned part of their ministry .

15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually Jesus did lose Judas because He said He did.
Jesus declares that and I won't argue with Him, so you take it up with Him yourself.

Of course there's nothing to argue. I explained what I meant. Sorry if you didn't understand.

All I hear from you is a lot of angry words and feelings and hatred towards Monergism, Calvinism, predestination, being called and chosen of God, and reprobation, etc...

Can you show me even one word that is "angry", or "hatred", and "feelings"? In fact, I've given you straight factual statements, but you just don't like them. Hm. So, where's the "hatred" here, huh.

Here is my view: I disagree strongly with monergism and Calvinism. I correctly understand predestinastion, and what being called and chosen and reprobation means.

Judas was appointed to his position, being chosen.

Sure. All 12 were.

[QUTOE] And was lost.[/QUOTE]
Which proves that being chosen isn't about being chosen to salvation.

Judas most definitely is unique being the only one Jesus ever lost or ever will lose that had been chosen and Judas was apportioned part of their ministry .

OK, you are free to repeat yourself. But Jesus was talking at him as well as the other 11. There isn't a shred of textual evidence to claim that He wasn't.

The text reveals that Jesus WAS going to die for Judas, all the while that Judas would never believe in Him.

 

[RisingSpirit]

...Do you have a clear verse that teaches that the human nature does not want to be saved? I can give you a very clear verse about a man who wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer was very clear: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

The man was not saved and wanted to be saved. Very clear....

1. Please consider that it is God who:
   1. - draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).
   2. - creates a clean heart (Psalm 51:10).
   3. - appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).
   4. - works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).
   5. - chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4).
   6. - chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14).
   7. - grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29).
   8. - grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
   9. - calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9).
   10. - causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3).
   11. - predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30).
   12. - predestines us to adoption (Eph. 1:5).
   13. - predestines us according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11).
   14. - makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13).

1. It is man who:
   1. - is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9).
   2. - is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
   3. - loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19).
   4. - is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12).
   5. - is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
   6. - is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).
   7. - is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
   8. - cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
   9. - is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

With these quote, you have to know what the Christians have been saying to you all along. The proof is provided here and you need not to reply. We really don't have time for arminian theologies.

 

[RisingSpirit]

...My position is that God is in control OVER everything, but not in control IN everything. Do you see the difference?..

The only difference we all see is YOUR position. It doesn't count. Please go back one step and pray on the verses we provided for you.

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