What did I do to make the screen twice as wide!?!?
Ok - this page is ok again, but my post at the end of page 2 went very wide ... if you go to the end of page 2 do you see this?My screen is fine.
It was still fine.Ok - this page is ok again, but my post at the end of page 2 went very wide ... if you go to the end of page 2 do you see this?
Let me flip this a bit. The bible talks about the elect. What do you think is meant?In any case I am interested to understand - it is Baptist belief that the 'elect' are the only ones saved (Augustinian belief) and that no only must one be a son of Abraham, but is already chosen even before they are born to be 'elect'?
All John 3:16 is saying is that believers receive eternal life.Does this not conflict to messages such as John 3:16 from the New Testament that seems to give hope to ALL that they have the ability to 'see the light' and turn to Jesus and save themselves?
Only one thief was saved. And he was elected to salvation.Do you think the 2 thieves on the cross beside Jesus were of the 'elect'? They seemed to simply turn at the last moment and believe in Christ and were immediately saved after a presumably wretched life ...
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent,
nor of human decision
or a husband’s will,
but born of God.
I will have to read more about the elect -- I honestly hadn't heard much if at about this before I started reading this thread and another active thread on Calvanism and -- almost the same topic as this thread.Let me flip this a bit. The bible talks about the elect. What do you think is meant?
Ham,
I found this briefly:
"Answer: Simply put, the elect of God are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the elect because that word denotes the concept of choosing. Every four years in the U.S., we "elect" a Presidenti.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God."
To me this seems very odd -- if I get this correct -- God not only already knows WHO will be saved -- he choses them before they are even born ...
I don't follow the logic with the creation of all of the souls who are damned before they are even born and don't have the choice or the ability to be saved?? Do you understand my perspective on this? What are you thoughts?
Doesn't everyone have the ability to save themselves?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I'm not sure I understood what you said but are you aware that there is a "General Baptist" like ones that are with the Southern Baptist Convention and the other is the "Particular Baptist" which more likely follow Charles Spurgeon's beliefs or Calvinism. In other words there are two camps of Baptist I know of. One is more towards arminianism or somewhat agrees with John Wesley and the other camp agrees with John Luther or John Calvin and Calvin frequently quotes Augustinian beliefs....In any case I am interested to understand - it is Baptist belief that the 'elect' are the only ones saved (Augustinian belief) and that no only must one be a son of Abraham, but is already chosen even before they are born to be 'elect'?.
I'm not sure I understood what you said but are you aware that there is a "General Baptist" like ones that are with the Southern Baptist Convention and the other is the "Particular Baptist" which more likely follow Charles Spurgeon's beliefs or Calvinism. In other words there are two camps of Baptist I know of. One is more towards arminianism or somewhat agrees with John Wesley and the other camp agrees with John Luther or John Calvin and Calvin frequently quotes Augustinian beliefs.
Most men don't understand the meaning of God being "past, present and future" at the same time. Man only feels the present. The past and the future don't exist in man's present of like now. I don't think man has the ability to view how God works. Sometime the Bible gives us a clue how God works....To me this seems very odd -- if I get this correct -- God not only already knows WHO will be saved -- he choses them before they are even born ...
Somehow I think the Baptist like John the Baptist and Super baptism like super dunk. It won't be long before some folks believe the deeper you go in water, the more saved you will be.It's worth noting that Calvin wasn't a Baptist.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
I think John 3:16 says it.
John 3:16 says that God loved the world in such a way that He gave His only son, that those who believe in His son will be saved.
It says nothing about who is saved or when they were chosen.
It says nothing about who is saved? but it says that those who believe in His son will be saved ... I don't understand ... Doesn't John 3:16 say enough? Doesn't it already explain who is saved?