Jesus Christ died for the elect

GoodSpeed

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My screen is fine.
Ok - this page is ok again, but my post at the end of page 2 went very wide ... if you go to the end of page 2 do you see this?

In any case I am interested to understand - it is Baptist belief that the 'elect' are the only ones saved (Augustinian belief) and that no only must one be a son of Abraham, but is already chosen even before they are born to be 'elect'?

Does this not conflict to messages such as John 3:16 from the New Testament that seems to give hope to ALL that they have the ability to 'see the light' and turn to Jesus and save themselves?

Do you think the 2 thieves on the cross beside Jesus were of the 'elect'? They seemed to simply turn at the last moment and believe in Christ and were immediately saved after a presumably wretched life ...
 
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Hammster

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Ok - this page is ok again, but my post at the end of page 2 went very wide ... if you go to the end of page 2 do you see this?
It was still fine.
In any case I am interested to understand - it is Baptist belief that the 'elect' are the only ones saved (Augustinian belief) and that no only must one be a son of Abraham, but is already chosen even before they are born to be 'elect'?
Let me flip this a bit. The bible talks about the elect. What do you think is meant?
Does this not conflict to messages such as John 3:16 from the New Testament that seems to give hope to ALL that they have the ability to 'see the light' and turn to Jesus and save themselves?
All John 3:16 is saying is that believers receive eternal life.
Do you think the 2 thieves on the cross beside Jesus were of the 'elect'? They seemed to simply turn at the last moment and believe in Christ and were immediately saved after a presumably wretched life ...
Only one thief was saved. And he was elected to salvation.
 
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sdowney717

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Not only was the thief on the cross saved, he also was not baptized in water, no where does it say or imply any such thing.

God gives the right to be children of God who believe and this is not of human decision!

11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

13 children born not of natural descent,
nor of human decision
or a husband’s will,
but born of God.

Born of God, born from above, not of a human's will or decision. Not because of who you were related to in a earthly sense.
 
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GoodSpeed

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Let me flip this a bit. The bible talks about the elect. What do you think is meant?
I will have to read more about the elect -- I honestly hadn't heard much if at about this before I started reading this thread and another active thread on Calvanism and -- almost the same topic as this thread.
 
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GoodSpeed

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Ham,

I found this briefly:

"Answer: Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes the concept of choosing. Every four years in the U.S., we "elect" a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God."


To me this seems very odd -- if I get this correct -- God not only already knows WHO will be saved -- he choses them before they are even born ...

I don't follow the logic with the creation of all of the souls who are damned before they are even born and don't have the choice or the ability to be saved?? Do you understand my perspective on this? What are you thoughts?
 
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Hammster

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Ham,

I found this briefly:

"Answer: Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes the concept of choosing. Every four years in the U.S., we "elect" a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God."


To me this seems very odd -- if I get this correct -- God not only already knows WHO will be saved -- he choses them before they are even born ...

I don't follow the logic with the creation of all of the souls who are damned before they are even born and don't have the choice or the ability to be saved?? Do you understand my perspective on this? What are you thoughts?

Don't look for an Internet definition. Do a word study. Find out where scripture talks about "the elect", or "the called".
 
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Doesn't everyone have the ability to save themselves?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I look at picking and choosing like picking the invisable door #1 or #2 or #3 and the doors are located 50 feet high in the air and you can't see them nor hear them nor feel them. In other words, mankind don't understand what they're looking at and God has to guide them.
I look at "whosoever believeth" has multiple meanings. If he is a policeman in plain clothes, he will follow the criminal. We don't know if he is a plain clothes cop. It's the same with this: If he is an Elect, he is a believer. The elect knows that. the Common viewer don't know that. The cop knows he is a cop but we don't know that.
I beleive "whosoever believeth" is what other people tell you what it should mean. Not every Elect wears a "Plain clothes Christian" cap. It's none of some folk's business.

plain_clothes_cop_embroidered_hat-p233630131906775447b0ryy_400.jpg

 
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...In any case I am interested to understand - it is Baptist belief that the 'elect' are the only ones saved (Augustinian belief) and that no only must one be a son of Abraham, but is already chosen even before they are born to be 'elect'?.
I'm not sure I understood what you said but are you aware that there is a "General Baptist" like ones that are with the Southern Baptist Convention and the other is the "Particular Baptist" which more likely follow Charles Spurgeon's beliefs or Calvinism. In other words there are two camps of Baptist I know of. One is more towards arminianism or somewhat agrees with John Wesley and the other camp agrees with John Luther or John Calvin and Calvin frequently quotes Augustinian beliefs.
 
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crimsonleaf

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I'm not sure I understood what you said but are you aware that there is a "General Baptist" like ones that are with the Southern Baptist Convention and the other is the "Particular Baptist" which more likely follow Charles Spurgeon's beliefs or Calvinism. In other words there are two camps of Baptist I know of. One is more towards arminianism or somewhat agrees with John Wesley and the other camp agrees with John Luther or John Calvin and Calvin frequently quotes Augustinian beliefs.

It's worth noting that Calvin wasn't a Baptist.
 
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...To me this seems very odd -- if I get this correct -- God not only already knows WHO will be saved -- he choses them before they are even born ...
Most men don't understand the meaning of God being "past, present and future" at the same time. Man only feels the present. The past and the future don't exist in man's present of like now. I don't think man has the ability to view how God works. Sometime the Bible gives us a clue how God works.

It's like watch those time machine movies where it tricks our minds and makes it fascinating.

Time-travel-through-a-wormhole-thumb-550xauto-38205.jpg

 
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It's worth noting that Calvin wasn't a Baptist.
Somehow I think the Baptist like John the Baptist and Super baptism like super dunk. It won't be long before some folks believe the deeper you go in water, the more saved you will be.
I think someone invented that name. John Calvin wasn't even a Calvinist, go figure.

man_walking_ankle_deep_in_water_12726301049.jpg

 
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sdowney717

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He first loved US. Jesus is talking to His people here in John 15
Jesus is not talking to the world, those who are outside of this fellowship.

Jesus says He lays down His life for His friends, those whom He loves.
John 15

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Jesus calls these He loves, His people, His friends

14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

Jesus now tells His people whom HE loves, His friends, that Jesus chose them, the friends who HE first loved, did not choose Jesus.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

The World Hates the Disciples, Jesus says His people, His friends who He first loves, are not belonging to the world, they are chosen out of the world by Jesus to be His people.

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Jesus says those who hate Him, also hate God. And they should not have hated Jesus since Jesus did so many good works among them. They saw these works and still hated Jesus and God

23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’

The Work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus will send the Holy Spirit and He, the Spirit of Truth will teach you about Jesus, testify to God's truths.

26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

These people who are saved by Jesus are the elect of God.
He gives up His life for His friends whom He first loves.
Those who are not saved are not elect of God.
 
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GoodSpeed

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John 3:16 says that God loved the world in such a way that He gave His only son, that those who believe in His son will be saved.

It says nothing about who is saved or when they were chosen.

:confused:It says nothing about who is saved? but it says that those who believe in His son will be saved ... I don't understand ... Doesn't John 3:16 say enough? Doesn't it already explain who is saved?
 
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:confused:It says nothing about who is saved? but it says that those who believe in His son will be saved ... I don't understand ... Doesn't John 3:16 say enough? Doesn't it already explain who is saved?

I can see I'm going to have to do this gently...

Obviously it says believers are saved. I would hope any Christian would accept this as a given. The OP claims correctly that Christ died for the elect. A post was made claiming that John 3:16 is the answer to the discussion point raised. I replied that it doesn't say anything about who is saved in that it says nothing about whether they are picked for salvation, choose their own destiny, whether the non-elect can be saved, or any one of a number of points of disagreement which the OP will and has inevitably raised.
 
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