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Jesus Christ died for the elect

Discussion in 'Debate with a Calvinist' started by Skala, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    I believe Christ died to infallibly save those that the Father entrusted to him (refered to by Christ many times). However, some Christians don't believe that.

    I'm giving them golden opportunity to provide Bible verses that specifically say that Christ died for every single individual in the human race.

    Please note:

    -General wording doesn't count. Why? Because even specific wording wasn't counted as sufficient evidence for Limited Atonement in the other thread (such as I die for my sheep, not all are my sheep: conclusion - I don't die for all)

    (hint: kosmos is a general word, because it has 10+ definitions. I need specific words!)

    I need specific, verbatim verses that say Christ died, trying to save every single individual

    It should be easy!

    Go!
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  2. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    So, not a single verse teaches that Christ died, trying to save every single individual?

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Quantum Paradise

    Quantum Paradise Junior Member

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    Been looking into some verses, interested in seeing how a Calvanist would approach them:

    2 Corinthians 5:19
    "...namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

    Lexicon Results
    Strong's G2889 - kosmos
    κόσμος
    Transliteration
    kosmos
    Pronunciation
    ko'-smos (Key)

    Part of Speech
    masculine noun
    Root Word (Etymology)
    Probably from the base of κομίζω (G2865)
    TDNT Reference
    3:868,459
    Vines
    View Entry
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    3) the world, the universe
    5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
    6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
    8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
    a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

    Problem here is that it seems cosmos is used in a board/universal sense, most likely number 5 perhaps? The only definition I can see fitting with limited atonement is number 8, but doesn't seem to be the case here.

    Colossians 1:20
    "...and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."

    Hebrews 2:9
    "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone."


    Lexicon Results
    Strong's G3956 - pas
    πᾶς
    Transliteration
    pas
    Pronunciation
    pä's (Key)


    Part of Speech
    adjective
    Root Word (Etymology)
    Including all the forms of declension
    TDNT Reference
    5:886,795
    Vines
    View Entry
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1) individually
    a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
    2) collectively
    a) some of all types

    Again, seems to be in a broad/universal sense here as well, especially Colossians 1:20 (all things...on earth or in heaven). Hence, definition number 1.

    What would be the Calvinists' take on this?
     
  4. Quantum Paradise

    Quantum Paradise Junior Member

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    Anyone? I guess this is more of a focus on the atonement question, is it unlimited or limited? Can it be that God purposed the atonement to be universal, but only effectively applies salvation to the church?
     
  5. dogs4thewin

    dogs4thewin Legend Supporter CF Ambassador

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    He died for everyone who choose to accept it for themselves.
     
  6. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Hi Quantum, I haven't studied the first two verses you mentioned, but as for Hebrews 2:9, the underlying Greek simply uses the word "pas" (which we translate "all"), it does not say "all individuals" or "all men".

    As one of the definitions of pas is "collectively" or "some of all types", the word takes on a certain meaning based on whether or not the author provides more information to define the scope of what he is talking about, or the "type"

    That being said, it is the duty of both Calvinists and Arminians to dig deeper to see if the author of Hebrews 2:9 has identified who he is talking about. If you keep reading past verse 9, you will discover that he is talking about..:

    Heb 2:9-13
    (9) But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
    (10) For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
    (11) For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
    (12) saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."
    (13) And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again, "Behold, I and the children God has given me."
    (14) Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
    (15) and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
    (16) For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

    So you can see that those that Christ tasted death for are further established as "..sons" and "those who are sanctified" and "those the Father has given to Christ" and "the congregation" and "the offspring of Abraham" (spritual offspring). He does not say that this is for the offspring of Adam (every single individual) but rather, the offspring of Abraham.

    No matter how you slice it, the above passage does not describe the entire human race, but rather, God's particular people.

    Here's a good read:

    Does Hebrews 2:9 teach universal atonement? (Part 1) | Strange BaptistFire
     
  7. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    So, you're saying he died for less than every single individual in the human race?

    You say he died for those who accept it.

    Not everyone accepts it

    Conclusion: he dies for some, not all
     
  8. singpeace

    singpeace Senior Member

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    Luke 16:16
    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

    John 1:9
    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


    1 Corinthians 3:5
    Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

    1 Corinthians 7:17
    But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"

    1 Corinthians 12:7
    But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    1 Corinthians 12:11
    But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Colossians 1:28
    Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

    Hebrews 2:9
    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.



    John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"

    1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

    1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

    1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

    John 8:12, Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

    1 Corinthians 15:22, For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Matthew 24:14, And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Mark 16:15, And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    Acts 17:31, Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Romans 3:19
    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Romans 5:12
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Ephesians 3:9
    And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Mark 16:15
    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    Colossians 1:15
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:23
    If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
     
  9. dogs4thewin

    dogs4thewin Legend Supporter CF Ambassador

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    He does not require you to accept it but IF you do TRULY accept it it does not matter what you have done.
     
  10. GoodSpeed

    GoodSpeed JEDI

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    I am no where near the level of debate or theology that I see these threads can seem to require ... but I think the point that was being made was that Jesus did die for all not just for those who do not accept it. He did in fact die for all. But those that do not accept it do not benefit from his death ... the fact that they do not receive eternal life does not mean that Jesus did not die for them - he did everything he could in fact.
     
  11. singpeace

    singpeace Senior Member

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    Very well stated. I agree. Christ died for all. Every man has the choice whether or not to accept Christ's free gift. It is for every single human being.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster #foster #adopt Supporter

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    What did His death actually do for those who won't be saved?
     
  13. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    What did his death accomplish, specifically?

    Whatever answer you give, can you prove it Biblically?
     
  14. GoodSpeed

    GoodSpeed JEDI

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    Hammster and Skala
    I am only stating my beliefs here ...
    I don't think that his death did anything for those who won't be saved.

    I am not sure I am understanding or answering the real question here - my point is that even IF someone was unwilling to accept what he did, and thus receive eternal salvation - Jesus is still willing to die and provide them the same offer ...
    from HIS side of the equation he is still willing to sacrifice himself to give them the opportunity ... that is all I am trying to say.
     
  15. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Do you think His death is what causes us to be willing? For example, the Bible says God doesn't withhold anything from the person Christ dies for.

    If he died for everyone, why doesn't the Father, then, give repentance, faith, and willingness to everyone? After all, the Bible teaches us that those things are gifts from God.

    So it seems obvious to me that God entrusted a particular group of people to Christ (called the elect), and by his death and resurrection, he secures and guarantees that they will, sometime during their lives, come to faith in Jesus and be saved.

    Thus the reason anyone at all believes in Jesus is because he died for them.

    Anyone who is willing to come to Jesus, can do so. But we know that when someone is willing, it's because God has chosen them from before the foundation of the world, to save them by free, unearned grace.
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Another way of asking this question,
    Did God chose those who would be saved?
    2 Thess 2
    As you read scripture, you see that God indeed has chosen those who will be saved.

    1 Peter 1 also says we who believe are God's elect. Chosen in Him to be obedient to the gospel, and sprinkled with His blood.

    Paul says chosen and called for obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    You can not say we are all called and chosen. These verses are all written to God's children, those who have saving faith and not written to the unsaved world.

    This passage of scripture above is in immediate juxtaposition with the unsaved followers of Satan, who labor under a great deception and are not chosen for salvation. God even says HE sends on them a strong delusion to believe the lie.

    Even life testifies to you that not all believe and some are false brethren.

    Those who are saved believe the truth because they have heard and learned from the Father, and they therefore come to Jesus to be saved.

    If they do not hear from the Father they do not come to Jesus to be saved. It must be granted them to believe.

    Jesus says it so clearly, do you believe what Jesus says about these matters?

    John 6
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
  17. crimsonleaf

    crimsonleaf Guest

    Yes, we are all to follow and obey Christ. Do we?

    Yes, every man is illuminated by Christ. Is that the same as being saved?


    The truth about Christ is universally available. Does everyone believe it?

    In modern English (ESV) 1Co 7:17 Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.

    Note, Corinthians is written to a church. God calls people to the church. These are the rules for the church. Your point?

    Yes, Christ is the head of all. Is everyone saved?

    Well he doesn't take away the sins of Venus. He takes away the sins that man performs on Earth. Are you saying this says every sin of every man is taken away? Who's in hell, and why?

    And does every man profit? The Spirit is manifest in the Gospel. It says nothing about who will accept the Spirit, nor whether the Spirit's manifestation in the Gospel is sufficient for salvation. However, Paul is writing directly to believers so the use of "every man" is read as applying to those he's writing to.

    This clearly says that the Spirit gives himself in varying degrees. Thank you.

    And we do preach to every man. No man knows who the elect are so we preach to all in the hope that all will be saved. Unfortunately we know that not everyone is, but God doesn't give us a list of the elect and he does use us to "get the message out".

    Dealt with in another thread and too detailed for the time I have here.


    Yes, of course. Whoever believes. All this says is that believers are saved. Who knew?

    Yes, Christ is the World's saviour, unless you know of anyone else? Does this mean that every individual is saved? No.

    "Especially of believers"? So Christ saves everyone but saves believers more? Please give me your explanation of what this means.

    Yep. Not just the Jews, but the Gentiles also. You did know that Gentiles were referred to as "the World" didn't you?

    We did this before.

    No it's not "whoever follows me", it's "whoever follows me". Read it as it's written, not how you'd like it to be written.

    God wants all men to repent and turn to him. They don't.

    Examine the uses of the word "pas" in Greek.

    Preaching the Gospel in all the world (Israel and beyond) clearly doesn't guarantee the salvation of all. Nor does this say it will.

    See above.

    Yes, all men, whether believers or not, are assured that Christ was raised from the dead. How do you think this says anything about salvation?

    Let's look at it all:

    Rom 3:19-25 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. (20) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

    So look at the highlighted part. Are all men justified before God, or is Paul talking to the church again?

    Does this have anything to do with the discussion?

    Again: context:

    Eph 3:8-10 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, (9) and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, (10) so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

    Looks like "everyone" means "Jews and Gentiles" as two groups.

    I'm not sure you've got the point of the OP's question...

    Are you saying you're a Universalist?

    The Gospel "was preached to every creature" according to Paul. Does this include China, Russia, the Philippines and Northern Ireland. Or could every creature be idiomatic?

    You have perfectly illustrated how verses out of context can skew belief. Try reading the verses in context and, well - welcome to Reformed belief. :)
     
  18. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

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    That sounds like Jesus died for those who have the ability to save themselves.
     
  19. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

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    I would say the Christ died for all but none want it. Not one man wanted to be saved nor cared. So God steps in and hand picked His chosen folks to give or hand over to Jesus and there Jesus died for them making it effective for salvation. If God didn't pick some then none would have been saved while all mankind deserves to visit the bottomless pit. If we all deserve to visit Neverland then why would we care to go to Heaven.

    I thought this guy in this video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yfXung5anw has taken his view on Total Depravity to the extreme like maybe hyper Calvinist gone wacky. This guy tells us what it means to be totally deprived. For some reason this video might not be right but I can't quite place my finger on why theres something really wrong with his views but then again how else to we describe totally depravity as Jesus died for those He rescued by force?
     
  20. GoodSpeed

    GoodSpeed JEDI

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    Doesn't everyone have the ability to save themselves?

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.