Jesus and young man

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JM

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PS: Why did God give Israel judges? Judges were given to Israel as a form of judgement and this is supported by Isa. 3...women ruling was a sign of judgement by God.

My people—infants are their oppressors,
and women rule over them.
O my people, your guides mislead you
and they have swallowed up the course of your paths.
 
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Bluelion

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Women are disqualified from preaching so her "preaching" should not be considered "Christian" preaching.

jm
That is your doctrine, ever think maybe us guys with degree that stand in front of people preaching might know something, just a thought lol. I'll start a thread because i can see it is time for another debate.
 
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JM

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That is your doctrine, ever think maybe us guys with degree that stand in front of people preaching might know something, just a thought lol. I'll start a thread because i can see it is time for another debate.

I'm all for ministers being educated and advocate for ministers being scholars but never assume a "guy with a degree" is a Christian let alone a minister. Bart Ehrman, Shelby Spong, Tom Harper, etc. all have degrees from "Christian" institutions. They have all preached in front of people...not one of them is a Christian.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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I'm all for ministers being educated and advocate for ministers being scholars but never assume a "guy with a degree" is a Christian let alone a minister. Bart Ehrman, Shelby Spong, Tom Harper, etc. all have degrees from "Christian" institutions. They have all preached in front of people...not one of them is a Christian.

A year after I first got saved, I ordered a DVD series of Bart Ehrman, I was so disgusted I returned it. This guy is a non believer, and claims to be a Christian Theologian, and he keeps bringing up Gnostic Gospels!
 
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Bluelion

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PS: Why did God give Israel judges? Judges were given to Israel as a form of judgement and this is supported by Isa. 3...women ruling was a sign of judgement by God.

My people—infants are their oppressors,
and women rule over them.
O my people, your guides mislead you
and they have swallowed up the course of your paths.

Yeah you don't understand judges according to Dr. Ed Hindson judges where those raised up to lead Israel out of bondage. Your lack of understand shows through, A woman judge was not a punishment to Israel as the name Judge would imply, she was there to rescue Israel from there punishment. Israel had been facing punishment it is why the were conquirered the Judges God appoint to lead Israel from there bondage and yes one was a woman. See and that is why Preachers have an education because with out one you get bad theology and bad doctrine.
 
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twin1954

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Yeah you don't understand judges according to Dr. Ed Hindson judges where those raised up to lead Israel out of bondage. Your lack of understand shows through, A woman judge was not a punishment to Israel as the name Judge would imply, she was there to rescue Israel from there punishment. Israel had been facing punishment it is why the were conquirered the Judges God appoint to lead Israel from there bondage and yes one was a woman. See and that is why Preachers have an education because with out one you get bad theology and bad doctrine.
Only man made preachers need an education. God educates those whom He calls to that office.
 
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Bluelion

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OzSpen

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Oh a woman preaching? Who do you think you are to judge someone the Holy Spirit maybe using for His mouth peice? Can God not pick who He chooses to speak or use be it man or woman, or child?

Blue,

I think you need to do a better job at biblical hermeneutics to approve women preachers than you have done here.

Oz
 
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JM

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Red herring it

Ahh, do you know what a red herring is? If so, why did you accuse me of it when I clearly answered your objections directly? I thought you were extremely proud of your "learning" and puffed up with "knowledge" about such things?

does not change the fact you did not know what a judge was or why they came oh but i should believe you have this secret information about women, but you don't even understand the simple things.

Again, you failed read directly from Judges why judges were given, "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim" 2.11 To reinforce the point, "Nevertheless the Lord raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them." 2.16

"17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the Lord; but they did not so.18 And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them."

The Judges were given to Israel to break their continued disobedience...hey, that sounds a lot like what I said earlier when I mentioned Isa. 3.

Also you never address my arugement so how could you destroy it, in your own mind.

With all your knowledge and scholarly learning you failed to demonstrate how a female Judge, given to Israel during a time of great disobedience, allows us to ignore Paul's clear teaching on the subject.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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alex2165

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I read all the post on this issue, and majority of you think that the young man was attach to his riches more than to GOD, it is OK with me, but I still firmly believe that he truly love GOD and followed His Commandments as much as he could, and definitely have been saved.

Concerning the post of Blue:

“And I am not a young man, so you can take your belittling comment and walk away boy. Also we are all equal in Heaven there is no rank. Jesus said let no one call you rabbi for you are all equal under God.”

Hierarchy in Heaven actually exists.

Zechariah 3.7

7."This says the Lord of hosts,'If you will walk in My ways, and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My House and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among those who are standing here.’


Matthew 5.19

19."Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."


Matthew 11.11

11."Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist, yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he."


Matthew 18.4

4."Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven,"


Matthew 19.30

30."But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.”


Matthew 20.16

16."So the last will be first and the first will be last.”


Mark 10.31

31."But many who are first will be last and the last will be first.”


Luke 13.30

30."Indeed, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”


Luke 7.28

28."I say to you, among those born of women, there is no one greater than John, yet he who is least in the Kingdom of GOD is greater than he."

And above all, you Blue do not talk like a Christian, it seems to me you always mad at something, just like old grumpy man. If you think that you smarter than everybody else, this is problem you have to work on.

Be polite, and if your opinion is different than another opinion, it does not mean that your opinion is always correct.
 
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Goodbook

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I think if I met Jesus today of course I would give everything up to follow Him. We cannot enter heaven wieighed down with the cares of this world.

This is a question you need to ask yourself, who do you value more, God or mammon?

I have a church lady friend who has now just become and elder. Her husband is still unsaved and this is a sorrow to her. She says its because of his riches and self righteousness that prevents him from coming to the Lord. Her husband is very wealthy and sees no need for God and give it all up.

This happened with another lady at another church as well. They are elderly, not young but still cling to earthly riches and dont understand spiritual riches. She was living trapped in a mansion and wanted to go out and do missionary work but she was married to a rich husband who wasnt a believer and so was prevented from doing so.
 
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Bluelion

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Ahh, do you know what a red herring is? If so, why did you accuse me of it when I clearly answered your objections directly? I thought you were extremely proud of your "learning" and puffed up with "knowledge" about such things?



Again, you failed read directly from Judges why judges were given, "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim" 2.11 To reinforce the point, "Nevertheless the Lord raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them." 2.16

"17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the Lord; but they did not so.18 And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them."

The Judges were given to Israel to break their continued disobedience...hey, that sounds a lot like what I said earlier when I mentioned Isa. 3.



With all your knowledge and scholarly learning you failed to demonstrate how a female Judge, given to Israel during a time of great disobedience, allows us to ignore Paul's clear teaching on the subject.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

You said it in your own post God raised up judges to deliver Israel not to punish it as you said. I realize your against education because on educated people are easier to control and people your false doctrine.

Let me explain it to you The topic I was addressing was why Judges were appoint, you switch to women in ministry which was not the current topic but the 1st topic that is a red herring.
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

  1. Topic A is under discussion.
  2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
  3. Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.
see what a little education will do. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html
 
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twin1954

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You said it in your own post God raised up judges to deliver Israel not to punish it as you said. I realize your against education because on educated people are easier to control and people your false doctrine.

Let me explain it to you The topic I was addressing was why Judges were appoint, you switch to women in ministry which was not the current topic but the 1st topic that is a red herring.
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

  1. Topic A is under discussion.
  2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
  3. Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.
see what a little education will do.
Well we can certainly see what education has done to you.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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You said it in your own post God raised up judges to deliver Israel not to punish it as you said. I realize your against education because on educated people are easier to control and people your false doctrine.

Let me explain it to you The topic I was addressing was why Judges were appoint, you switch to women in ministry which was not the current topic but the 1st topic that is a red herring.
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

  1. Topic A is under discussion.
  2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
  3. Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.
see what a little education will do.

Blue,

JM has a different view then you regarding women preaching.

He was simply bringing up verses to back up his view points with scriptures, thats why he brought up the Isaiah 3 verse, and brought up Judges.

This is a hot topic, and it's normal for believers to have different opinions on certain topics. I myself side with JM on this one.

But you mentioned your education many times, it can come off to some to be like a pharisee, brother be humble like Christ.
 
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tdidymas

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why judges were given, "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim" 2.11 To reinforce the point, "Nevertheless the Lord raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them." 2.16

"17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the Lord; but they did not so.18 And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them."

The Judges were given to Israel to break their continued disobedience...
When I carefully read this section you quoted, here is what I observe:
1. "Those that spoiled them" (the enemies) were the punishment for Israel's serving the Baals.
2. "The Lord raised up judges, which delivered them..." is the relief from the punishment, since deliverance in this context means saving from.
3. When the Israelites were under the oppression of their enemies, they groaned to God, and God had compassion on them, and therefore sent judges to save them from their enemies.
4. Your statement "to break their continued disobedience" was not a punishment, but a corrective measure. The judges, after delivering the people out of oppression, taught the people God's laws, but the result was temporary, since they went back to idols which incurred God's wrath through the hand of their enemies.

It just appears to me that the enemies were the punishment, and the judges were the saviors. Do you get something different than this?
TD:)
 
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JM

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When I carefully read this section you quoted, here is what I observe:
1. "Those that spoiled them" (the enemies) were the punishment for Israel's serving the Baals.
2. "The Lord raised up judges, which delivered them..." is the relief from the punishment, since deliverance in this context means saving from.
3. When the Israelites were under the oppression of their enemies, they groaned to God, and God had compassion on them, and therefore sent judges to save them from their enemies.
4. Your statement "to break their continued disobedience" was not a punishment, but a corrective measure. The judges, after delivering the people out of oppression, taught the people God's laws, but the result was temporary, since they went back to idols which incurred God's wrath through the hand of their enemies.

It just appears to me that the enemies were the punishment, and the judges were the saviors. Do you get something different than this?
TD:)

TD, I recognize your points but would go further. During the span of time that Judges records we also see "gross periods of sin. The people are depicted as unstable and easily led into idolatry. Extreme crimes are recorded in the book." RSB Notes Please, do not mistake my view of Judges being used to condemn sin as me viewing each Judge as wrong, that's not what I mean, Judges were given to remind sinning Israel of their covenant with God, enforce the Law during a time of intense oppression. What I am saying is simply this; Deborah was an except, not the rule.

There may be instances when the regular pattern of God’s order may have to be set aside due to unusual circumstances. When, for example, the husband and father is absent, the woman of the house assumes the headship of the family. So it would appear, there may be unusual circumstances when male leadership is unavailable for one reason or another. At such times God may use women to accomplish his purposes even as he used Deborah. (“The Negative Case Against the Ordination of Women,” in Kenneth S. Kantzer and Stanley N. Gundry, eds., Perspectives on Evangelical Theology [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979], 285)
To illustrate this point further John MacArthur wrote, "It is significant that Deborah declined to lead the military campaign against the Canaanites, deferring instead to a man, Barak. No women served as priests. None of the authors of the Old Testament were women. No woman had an on-going prophetic (speaking before people) ministry like that of Elijah, Elisha, or the other prophets. While Miriam (Ex. 15:20), Deborah (Judg. 4:4), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14), and Isaiah’s wife (Isa. 8:3) are called prophetesses, none had a permanent calling to that office. Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah gave only one recorded prophecy, and Isaiah’s wife none. She is called a prophetess because she gave birth to a child whose name had prophetic meaning. A fifth woman mentioned as a prophetess, Noadiah, was a false prophetess (Neh. 6:14). While God spoke through women on a few limited occasions, no woman had an on-going role of preaching and teaching.[end quote]

MacArthur's point reminded me of a comment made by Baptist John Gill, "This chapter shows how that Israel sinning was delivered into the hands of Jabin king of Canaan, by whom they were oppressed twenty years, Jud 4:1-3; and that Deborah and Barak consulted together about their deliverance, Jud 4:4-9; and that Barak, encouraged by Deborah, gathered some forces and fought Sisera the captain of Jabin's army, whom he met, and obtained a victory over, Jud 4:10-15; who fleeing on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber, was received into it, and slain by her while asleep in it, Jud 4:16-22; which issued in a complete deliverance of the children of Israel, Jud 4:23,24.[Gill's Commentaries]

(+Notice how closely Deborah's Judgeship was with the work of Barak? Just an interesting historical detail, her appointment was not without the, at times, co-leadership of a man.)

Matthew Henry outlines Judges 4 thusly:

I. Israel revolted from God (v. 1).

II. Israel oppressed by Jabin (v. 2, v. 3).

III. Israel judged by Deborah (v. 4, v. 5).

IV. Israel rescued out of the hands of Jabin.

1. Their deliverance is concerted between Deborah and Barak (v. 6, v. 9). It is accomplished by their joint-agency. Barak takes the field (v. 10). Sisera, Jabin’s general, meets him (v. 12, v. 13). Deborah encourages him (v. 14). And God gives him a complete victory. The army routed (v. 15, v. 16). The general forced to flee (v. 17). And where he expected shelter he had his life stolen from him by Jael while he was asleep (v. 18-21), which completes Barak’s triumph (v. 22). and Israel’s deliverance (v. 23, v. 24).[end quote]

Her leadership role was given directly by God during the theocratic Kingdom of Israel and therefore is an isolated historical event. The Judges were sent as saviours of believing Israel (not all Israel were Israel according to the flesh) because they called them back to God and, like all examples of Law and Gospel found in God's holy word, Judges condemned unbelievers for their lack of faith. What we find in Judges cannot be used to justify women becoming Gospel ministers and that was the point I was trying to make.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Bluelion

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Blue,

JM has a different view then you regarding women preaching.

He was simply bringing up verses to back up his view points with scriptures, thats why he brought up the Isaiah 3 verse, and brought up Judges.

This is a hot topic, and it's normal for believers to have different opinions on certain topics. I myself side with JM on this one.

But you mentioned your education many times, it can come off to some to be like a pharisee, brother be humble like Christ.

Well I guess you could take that view, or you could look at it academically which give credibility to my statements having been formerly trained in such matters when dealing with some who has no education. As much as people like to ignore it there is a standard to being a preacher at a church. It is called a Master in Divinty and been ordained. While there are cases of people with out this it is the Gold standard. Even those in The Bible like the disciples trained with Jesus before going out and Paul was maybe the most educated out of them all.

So while your subjective response says I am being arrogant, I assure i am not, maybe you should have asked before you assumed and judged. So maybe this is project and you are the one being arrogant, I don't really care to weight and opinion into it, but i might suggest some personal reflection.
 
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