James says faith without works is dead.

[Job8]

Doesn't it bother you that you need to add words to scripture to get it to fit your doctrine?

Exposition and interpretation is not "adding" words to Scripture by trying to understand what they mean. Abraham's obedience would have become known to his servants, as well as contemporaries of Abraham, as well as all the Jews who read Scripture through the ages, until James used Abraham's obedience as an example of one whose works proved his living faith. Abraham was ALREADY JUSTIFIED in the eyes of God (Gen 15:6). That was perhaps 20 years before he offered Isaac on the altar. So when James speaks of Abraham being "justified" as related to Isaac's offering, it is evident that this refers to how men would view Abraham's faith.

 

[disciple1]

If someone has faith that God will lead them into being like Christ in having a holy, righteous, and good conduct, then they will obey His instructions in His law for how to do holy, righteous, and good works. When God said that this is the right way to live and Jesus demonstrated the right way to live by giving us a perfect example to follow of obedience to God's law, then it would be inconsistent for someone to say that they trust that God knows what He is talking about while demonstrating through their lawless and unrepentant actions that they don't actually trust or even know Him.

1 John 3:4-6 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
So no one keeps the law, and we're all guilty of every possible sin.
This is all I believe we need to do.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[Soyeong]

1 John chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.

I have not claimed to be without sin.

James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

James was not arguing that they should bother obeying the law, but that they should be doing a more consistent job obeying it. You don't become guilty of committing all sins by breaking one sin, but rather all sins have the same penalty.

So no one keeps the law, and we're all guilty of every possible sin.

Keeping the law doesn't refer to being without sin, but rather it involves practicing obedience to it and repentance when sin.

This is all I believe we need to do.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

No one does these things perfectly either, but that's not the point. The law was never given to that we could become justified by keeping it perfectly, but rather it was given to instruct how those who are justified by faith should live by faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Good works (or works of righteousness) are A PRODUCT of being saved by grace, and are evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit within . They do not save anyone, and they cannot keep anyone saved.

What they do is provide others with evidence of saving faith in the one who does good works. Before Abraham placed Isaac on the altar, he had already been justified by faith (his faith was imputed for righteousness) much, much earlier. But as James says, he was shown to be justified (in the sight of men) because of his total obedience to God.

First, the book of Romans is talking about the heresy of trying to be circumcised in order to be justified before God. So Paul's point is not that we are not to do NOTHING for our LORD in order to be right with Him. For even a belief is an action of some kind. The point Paul was making is that he was saying that Abraham believed God first and was justified and THEN....Abraham was able to perform (bring forth works being fully persuaded by his belief) so as to refute the belief that one has to be circumiced in order to be saved. For Romans says,

"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Romans 4:21).

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).​

Meaning, Abraham believed God and being fully persuaded by that belief he was able to perform. The performance part is not an option. For performance was a part of Abraham's faith. Paul's point here has to be in view of the fact that he was trying to refute "circumcision" in order to be justified before God.

However, if believers did not have to cooperate with God, then people could be their own masters and also serve God. But it doesn't work like that. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. Repentance from sin and the fruits thereof (by turning away from sin) is a part of the salvation process. One cannot remain in their sins and think they are still saved. One cannot refuse to do good works in this life and still think they are saved.

Second, in Romans 4:2 is in view of initial salvation or in how one is ultimately saved and it is not talking about the good works of Christ that one would do over their entire lives. Again, Paul has "circumcision" (or in going back to the Old Law) in mind when he is saying this. So it should be read in that light. In other words, one does not need to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved. That is what Romans 4:2 is saying.

Third, technically speaking no man directed work will save anyone. For the key question one needs to ask is: Are we saved by man directed works or are we saved by God directed works? Well, according to the Bible, no outward obedience can save anyone. So I can say that Romans 4:2 is true. Man is not justified by keeping some kind of external form of work (like going back to circumcision) so as to be right with God. However, a person does need Christ (God) living within them in order to be saved, though. For 1 John 5:12 says,

"He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life." (1 John 5:12).​

So if a person has Christ living within them, then the fruits or works of Christ will be evident in that person's life. So yes, we are not justified by any works before God (of our own doing) because it is God who is the One who ultimately does the good work in us.

James says we are justified by works. Not before men. We cannot justify our faith before men. Our justificaton and salvation has to do with God. James is indeed saying we are justified by works. But the key to understanding is to understand what TYPE of work is James talking about. Is James talking about man directed works or God directed works in a believer's life? Well, the short answer is that James is talking about God directed works. For no true believer does their own work. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.


...

 

[Thursday]

Exposition and interpretation is not "adding" words to Scripture by trying to understand what they mean. Abraham's obedience would have become known to his servants, as well as contemporaries of Abraham, as well as all the Jews who read Scripture through the ages, until James used Abraham's obedience as an example of one whose works proved his living faith. Abraham was ALREADY JUSTIFIED in the eyes of God (Gen 15:6). That was perhaps 20 years before he offered Isaac on the altar. So when James speaks of Abraham being "justified" as related to Isaac's offering, it is evident that this refers to how men would view Abraham's faith.

You are adding your opinion to scripture. That is dangerous.

James is clearly talking about salvation and justification before God:

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

 

[Thursday]

First, the book of Romans is talking about the heresy of trying to be circumcised in order to be justified before God. So Paul's point is not that we are not to do NOTHING for our LORD in order to be right with Him. For even a belief is an action of some kind. The point Paul was making is that he was saying that Abraham believed God first and was justified and THEN....Abraham was able to perform (bring forth works being fully persuaded by his belief) so as to refute the belief that one has to be circumiced in order to be saved. For Romans says,

"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Romans 4:21).

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).​

Meaning, Abraham believed God and being fully persuaded by that belief he was able to perform. The performance part is not an option. For performance was a part of Abraham's faith. Paul's point here has to be in view of the fact that he was trying to refute "circumcision" in order to be justified before God.

However, if believers did not have to cooperate with God, then people could be their own masters and also serve God. But it doesn't work like that. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. Repentance from sin and the fruits thereof (by turning away from sin) is a part of the salvation process. One cannot remain in their sins and think they are still saved. One cannot refuse to do good works in this life and still think they are saved.

Second, in Romans 4:2 is in view of initial salvation or in how one is ultimately saved and it is not talking about the good works of Christ that one would do over their entire lives. Again, Paul has "circumcision" (or in going back to the Old Law) in mind when he is saying this. So it should be read in that light. In other words, one does not need to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved. That is what Romans 4:2 is saying.

Third, technically speaking no man directed work will save anyone. For the key question one needs to ask is: Are we saved by man directed works or are we saved by God directed works? Well, according to the Bible, no outward obedience can save anyone. So I can say that Romans 4:2 is true. Man is not justified by keeping some kind of external form of work (like going back to circumcision) so as to be right with God. However, a person does need Christ (God) living within them in order to be saved, though. For 1 John 5:12 says,

"He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life." (1 John 5:12).​

So if a person has Christ living within them, then the fruits or works of Christ will be evident in that person's life. So yes, we are not justified by any works before God (of our own doing) because it is God who is the One who ultimately does the good work in us.

James says we are justified by works. Not before men. We cannot justify our faith before men. Our justificaton and salvation has to do with God. James is indeed saying we are justified by works. But the key to understanding is to understand what TYPE of work is James talking about. Is James talking about man directed works or God directed works in a believer's life? Well, the short answer is that James is talking about God directed works. For no true believer does their own work. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.


...

Great post.

You've nailed it. The problem many have with this doctrine is that they confuse obedience to the teachings of Jesus with adherence to the Mosaic Law. Paul is clear that they are two different things.

 

[disciple1]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

OT Scripture, and in specific God's code of conduct in His law are profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. God said it wasn't too difficult:

Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Quoting from here:

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

Through faith and with God all things are possible. The law could not cause us to obey it, so God did what the law could not do by sending His Son to die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and to free us from slavery to sin, and sent His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). When He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be made to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct like Christ in obedience to the law.

Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law, before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
In 1 peter chapter 4 verse 8
It says love covers many sins.
And we all sin and are guilty of every sin even if we haven't done them.

 

[Thursday]

Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law, before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.
In 1 peter chapter 4 verse 8
It says love covers many sins.
And we all sin and are guilty of every sin even if we haven't done them.

You have to keep reading. Don't confuse the Jewish Law with obedience to Jesus. Obedience to Jesus is required, a man reaps what he sows:

Gal 6:

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

 

[ac28]

No part of James' letter can be taken doctrinally for us Gentiles. His letter was written to the 12 tribes of Israel James 1:1.

 

[disciple1]

No part of James' letter can be taken doctrinally for us Gentiles. His letter was written to the 12 tribes of Israel James 1:1.

As Nineveh in the book of Jonah was not a city in Israel but was a sign to Israel and us. So the book of James is a sign to us, not a single verse of the bible is their that doesn't apply to us I'm not saying all the bible has to be obeyed.
I think you don't want to share, but want to keep everything for yourself.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[disciple1]

You have to keep reading. Don't confuse the Jewish Law with obedience to Jesus. Obedience to Jesus is required, a man reaps what he sows:

Gal 6:

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap

Sow love reap love.

 

[JoeP222w]

As is always true with the Bible, context matters.

James is pointing out that works are a demonstration of one's saving faith in Christ. He was in no way saying that works are a pre-requisites to faith or salvation. Good works are the fruit of salvation, not the root.

 

[JoeP222w]

Calvinists believe that works are unrelated to salvation.

Straw Man fallacy. Calvinists believe as the Bible teaches, that works are the product of salvation, not the pre-requisite to salvation, nor that works are "unrelated" to salvation.

 

[JoeP222w]

Calvinists believe in unconditional election.

Yes, Calvinist again believe as the Bible teaches, that God is the only one with autonomous, sovereign free will. Calvinists reject synergism, because it is not biblical.

 

[Thursday]

Straw Man fallacy. Calvinists believe as the Bible teaches, that works are the product of salvation, not the pre-requisite to salvation, nor that works are "unrelated" to salvation.

Calvinists most definitely don't believe what the bible teaches, which is that a man reaps what he sows.

Calvinists believe in UNCONDITIONAL election, which is unbiblical and illogical.

 

[Thursday]

Yes, Calvinist again believe as the Bible teaches, that God is the only one with autonomous, sovereign free will. Calvinists reject synergism, because it is not biblical.

The bible teaches that we will be judged for our works and that we will reap what we sow.

Calvinists reject what the bible teaches. Calvinists teach that a man reaps what God sows, ie. that a man goes to Hell because God placed him there before he was even born.

 

[Thursday]

Sow love reap love.

Can you sow love without doing anything?

 

[Soyeong]

No part of James' letter can be taken doctrinally for us Gentiles. His letter was written to the 12 tribes of Israel James 1:1.

Reading the Epistles is like reading someone else's mail because they were not written to us, but they are nevertheless included in the Bible for our instruction.

 

[Thursday]

As is always true with the Bible, context matters.

James is pointing out that works are a demonstration of one's saving faith in Christ. He was in no way saying that works are a pre-requisites to faith or salvation. Good works are the fruit of salvation, not the root.

Salvation is the result of cooperation with God's free gift of grace.

No one is saved against their will.

 

[JoeP222w]

that a man goes to Hell because God placed him there before he was even born.

So are you denying God's sovereign right to do with His creation as He chooses?