IVF and emergency abortion

ChirpChirp

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I have heard of it, and I believe it exists. But is knowledgeable failure to pursue a course of action that will result in people living who would otherwise die by itself sufficient to constitute sin by omission?

If you are a doctor with the treatment at your fingertips yes!

If you had a heart attack right now and went to hospital expecting to get treatment do you think you would be justly treated by being told to go home because you're going to die anyway?

Who said anything about sitting down and watching her die? Is there absolutely nothing else that can be done to save her besides intentionally and deliberately killing the unborn child?

No, in ectopic pregnancy the embryo implants outside the womb 99.9% of the time in the fallopian tube. There is absolutely no way that you can "re-implant" the baby somewhere else. You either wait for the embryo to grow and rupture the fallopian tube leading to catastrophic haemorrhage and death or else remove it. Either way the embryo will never develop into a viable baby.

You do hear of weird and wonderful stories like when an ectopic pregnancy happened in the mother's abdomen (it attached to this tissue called the omentum that is like a blanket over the intestines) and the baby grew to term and was delivered by c section but in that case the pregnancy could continue because the baby had room to expand inside the mother. And these cases are very very rare, I've only found records of one such case.
 
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Ariadne_GR

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NO! There is nothing, nothing at all that can be done to save the baby in these circumstances! I already said that. So yes you would have to do nothing but watch the mother die based on what you want.

From your link: " The principle of double effect is frequently cited in cases of pregnancy and abortion. A doctor who believes abortion is always morally wrong may still remove the uterus or fallopian tubes of a pregnant woman, knowing the procedure will cause the death of the embryo or fetus, in cases in which the woman is certain to die without the procedure (examples cited include aggressive uterine cancer and ectopic pregnancy). In these cases, the intended effect is to save the woman's life, not to terminate the pregnancy, and the effect of not performing the procedure would result in the greater evil of both the death of the mother and the fetus.[4][5]"

I leave the rest to someone else to deal with. You started off with agreeing with truthseeker, who is saying the same thing all of us who are Orthodox are saying and yet you keep arguing against the baby being removed in such a situation. I can only conclude this means you are either are trying to argue and debate or you don't truly understand the medical science being presented.

Also, completely agree with you.

You know, Ariadne, I think this pretty much just smacks of flaming, but even so, I think it behooves me to ask: what, exactly, is well said, and what, exactly, will fall on deaf ears?

You have insulted me, and now you can explain to me what you mean by it.

I agreed with the contents of her post, as I have agreed with the contents of the post above that I also quoted. That is what is well said, that should be clear.

I wasn't directly responding to you though I know gracefullamb was. I didn't have time to break up the post, I do apologise. I was responding to the scenario posted and gracefullamb's response, and I can see that the scenario was indeed yours. There is absolutely no connection at all with what was proposed by gracefullamb and your scenario. I can see you hold one position, which to me is not pro life at all, it's pro death - the woman's. And she holds her position, which I agree with, there's no room to move there therefore no use going back and forth about it. Perhaps it would be more accurate to call it an impasse.
 
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Crandaddy

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If you are a doctor with the treatment at your fingertips yes!

Well, let's say that you're an ER doctor and you have two emergent patients come in at the same time. You can save either of them, but you only have enough time and resources to save one. The other patient will die, and there's nothing you can do to stop that. Here's a case where any possible course of action you choose will result in the death of at least one person who you could have saved. If you choose to save one of them, have you sinned by not having chosen to save the other?

But that aside, let me ask you this: Is any course of treatment permissible, as long as it is necessary to save someone's life?

If you had a heart attack right now and went to hospital expecting to get treatment do you think you would be justly treated by being told to go home because you're going to die anyway?
If the only treatment that would save my life would require that I receive the heart of another living person, then yes, I think that might be just treatment.

No, in ectopic pregnancy the embryo implants outside the womb 99.9% of the time in the fallopian tube. There is absolutely no way that you can "re-implant" the baby somewhere else. You either wait for the embryo to grow and rupture the fallopian tube leading to catastrophic haemorrhage and death or else remove it. Either way the embryo will never develop into a viable baby.
But notice that I emphasized “intentionally” and “deliberately.” I did that intentionally and deliberately. :)

As I see it, merely pursuing a course of action that will result in the death of the embryo is not by itself sufficient to constitute murder of the embryo. In order for the course of action to constitute murder, the death of the embryo must be deliberately intended to result from it.

Now, is removal of a fallopian tube that has been damaged as a result of embryonic implantation therein sufficient to constitute action with deliberate intent to kill the embryo that resides there? Arguably, it is not, and this is the beauty of the principle of double effect--it allows (or might allow) us to pursue a course of treatment that will save the mother's life, and that does not constitute murder of the embryo.

I wasn't directly responding to you though I know gracefullamb was. I didn't have time to break up the post, I do apologise.

Okay, apology accepted. :)

I can see you hold one position, which to me is not pro life at all, it's pro death - the woman's. And she holds her position, which I agree with, there's no room to move there therefore no use going back and forth about it. Perhaps it would be more accurate to call it an impasse.
I am NOT pro-death, Ariadne. No one wants anyone to die. And furthermore, I don't think anyone has to die. As I explained to ChirpChirp, I believe there might be a way to save the mother's life, while at the same time avoiding a course of treatment that constitutes murder.
 
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choirfiend

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ah, the good old Catholic way of getting around ectopic pregnancies--remove the fallopian tube, and the baby just dies as a side effect. Of course, now we've affected the future fertility and health of the woman, but it's much better than removing the baby within a still-healthy fallopian tube. It's not at all the same thing, technically.
 
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MKJ

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ah, the good old Catholic way of getting around ectopic pregnancies--remove the fallopian tube, and the baby just dies as a side effect. Of course, now we've affected the future fertility and health of the woman, but it's much better than removing the baby within a still-healthy fallopian tube. It's not at all the same thing, technically.

Yes, I really think that this is a case where they are choosing to define their action in such a way as to get around a problem. The problem is not the tube, but if they say it is the tube they can call it double-effect and avoid having to take a more nuanced approach to moral issues.

And of course it would be no help in a case where the embryo had implanted outside the fallopian tube, but in a non-viable spot.
 
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Crandaddy

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it's much better than removing the baby

Why would you remove the baby?

within a still-healthy fallopian tube.
A still-healthy fallopian tube? Why believe that the tube is healthy?

The problem is not the tube,

Why is the problem not the tube?

but if they say it is the tube they can call it double-effect and avoid having to take a more nuanced approach to moral issues.
What would be a more nuanced approach?

And of course it would be no help in a case where the embryo had implanted outside the fallopian tube, but in a non-viable spot.
Outside the fallopian tube? Why would that make a relevant difference to the double-effect approach? Do you know what the rationale behind removing the tube would be?
 
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MKJ

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Why would you remove the baby?

A still-healthy fallopian tube? Why believe that the tube is healthy?

Why is the problem not the tube?

What would be a more nuanced approach?

Outside the fallopian tube? Why would that make a relevant difference to the double-effect approach? Do you know what the rationale behind removing the tube would be?


I am beginning to wonder if you know much about ectopic pregnancy. Some of your questions seem a little odd.
 
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Crandaddy

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I am beginning to wonder if you know much about ectopic pregnancy. Some of your questions seem a little odd.

I know that the embryo implants outside the uterus, usually in the fallopian tube.

I know that if it implants in the fallopian tube (and perhaps elsewhere), it stands no chance of developing into a viable baby, and the mother's death will very likely ensue unless action is taken that effectively terminates the pregnancy.

What am I missing?
 
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MKJ

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I know that the embryo implants outside the uterus, usually in the fallopian tube.

I know that if it implants in the fallopian tube (and perhaps elsewhere), it stands no chance of developing into a viable baby, and the mother's death will very likely ensue unless action is taken that effectively terminates the pregnancy.

What am I missing?

I am not understanding why you think it is the tube that is the problem. In some cases the reason for the ectopic pregnancy is that the tube is damaged, or it becomes damaged when it ruptures, but often that is not the case.

If it is caught in time, the tube can be perfectly healthy. It is possible medically, under those circumstances, to remove the embryo without the tube being compromised at all.

And depending on where it implants, if it is outside the tube, direct removal of the embryo might be the only option - it is not in anything to remove.

But under the Catholic teaching, this is not allowed, because it would be considered a direct attack on the embryo. The best they allow is to say that the tube is diseased and can therefor be removed, and the removal of the embryo along with it is unintended, and therefor falls under double effect.

That is, they can only apply double effect by defining the problem as the tube, not the embryo that is going to rupture the tube. They are redefining the problem so they can use this principle, but the redefinition is not really all that accurate. How can you say the tube is the problem when in fact there is nothing wrong with it.

That is why they only allow tube removal, not other medical options like opening the tube or using a drug that will cause the embryo to flush from the tube. (In fact the more strict Catholic theologians will say you have to wait for the tube to rupture before double effect can apply.)

All of this seems to be a way to avoid a situation where there seems to be no really good way to proceed - where acting and not acting both have morally questionable results, which tends to be the case in many of the more difficult moral issues we face.

But for some reason Catholicism seems very uncomfortable with the idea that in some instances, the least immoral course of action open to us may have real objectively immoral elements.
 
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choirfiend

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Good stories, Insshin. In this context, we're referring to ectopic as tubal. If a baby is growing attached to another surface in the abdomen and the mother is NOT guaranteed bleeding to death it becomes at worst a touch decision since the mother is still at a high risk of death and at best a possibility of life, like those stories tell. What we are discussing, however, are tubal--we have no way to save the baby. It would be AMAZING if we knew how to move placentas, but if also we knew how to do that, we wouldnt do IVF nearly so much---we'd find women who were willing to be pregnant for 8 weeks as a surrogate and mothers who would then carry the transplanted child.
 
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Crandaddy

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I am not understanding why you think it is the tube that is the problem. In some cases the reason for the ectopic pregnancy is that the tube is damaged, or it becomes damaged when it ruptures, but often that is not the case.

If it is caught in time, the tube can be perfectly healthy. It is possible medically, under those circumstances, to remove the embryo without the tube being compromised at all.

In order to understand why the tube is the problem, we must first step back and look at the overall context of the disease, and then we must identify the part of that context in which the problem lies, and therefore requires treatment.

The overall context of the disease in this case is basically this: A fallopian tube is functioning as an embryonic implantation site. If the embryo implanted in that tube is allowed to continue to gestate therein, this will in all likelihood cause the tube to rupture. This, in turn, will in all likelihood result in the deaths of both the mother and the child.

Now, in which part of that context does the problem lie? Is it in the embryo? Surely not. The embryo by itself is not a parasite--it's a child, quite naturally growing and developing inside its mother. If it could be moved to the uterus and then re-implanted, so that it could continue to grow and develop there, then surely this would be the preferred course of treatment, but unfortunately, modern medicine is not able to do this.

The reason why the problem is in the tube and not in the child is because the child's implantation and gestation in the tube is caused by the tube's functioning as an implantation site. A fallopian tube is not supposed to function as an implantation site. The tube is therefore malfunctioning. It is therefore in the tube, rather than in the child, where the problem lies. What is required for treatment, therefore, is to cause the tube to stop mal-functioning as an implantation site.

The reason why removing the child would save the mother's life is because it would be one method whereby the tube's malfunctioning as an implantation site might be arrested, but it would be a misidentification of the problem--for, as I've shown, the child by itself is not the problem. Instead of getting rid of the child as some sort of parasite, treatment should proceed by seeking to arrest the tube's malfunctioning as an implantation site, as this is the root cause of the disease. Unfortunately, medicine is not yet able to do this and prevent the child's death from resulting of it, but medicine is able to direct its course of treatment toward correcting the root cause of the disease, which is not located in the child.

And depending on where it implants, if it is outside the tube, direct removal of the embryo might be the only option - it is not in anything to remove.
Whatever tissue is malfunctioning as an implantation site would be the locus of the problem, and the course of treatment would seek to arrest that malfunction. If you want details, then you'll need to present a specific case for me to consider.

But under the Catholic teaching, this is not allowed, because it would be considered a direct attack on the embryo. The best they allow is to say that the tube is diseased and can therefor be removed, and the removal of the embryo along with it is unintended, and therefor falls under double effect.

That is, they can only apply double effect by defining the problem as the tube, not the embryo that is going to rupture the tube. They are redefining the problem so they can use this principle, but the redefinition is not really all that accurate. How can you say the tube is the problem when in fact there is nothing wrong with it.
But there is something wrong with the tube. As I've shown, the tube's malfunctioning as an implantation site is the problem. Removing the child would save the mother because that would effectively arrest the tube's malfunctioning.

That the child is not the problem can be seen in the fact that if it were possible to re-implant the child in the uterus, then by so doing, the disease would be successfully treated.

That is why they only allow tube removal, not other medical options like opening the tube or using a drug that will cause the embryo to flush from the tube.
Whatever course of treatment would arrest the tube's (or other tissue's) malfunctioning, while not directly causing the death of the child and causing as little harm to the mother as possible, would be the preferred course.

(In fact the more strict Catholic theologians will say you have to wait for the tube to rupture before double effect can apply.)
I know, and I disagree with them. Malfunctioning as an implantation site to the effect of compromising the lives of both mother and child will suffice for allowing a double-effect course of treatment, even if the tube is not yet ruptured.

All of this seems to be a way to avoid a situation where there seems to be no really good way to proceed - where acting and not acting both have morally questionable results, which tends to be the case in many of the more difficult moral issues we face.

But for some reason Catholicism seems very uncomfortable with the idea that in some instances, the least immoral course of action open to us may have real objectively immoral elements.
In cases such as these, there really is no good way to proceed. We just have to do the best we can with the circumstances we're presented with. As long as we do that, then we're pursuing the moral course.
 
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rusmeister

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And whatever you decide in these thorny issues, always remember that people will try to use any legitimate case (of removing a baby that must die in any event, for example) to justify any number of illegitimate cases.

Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere.
GK Chesterton
 
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