Its all comes down to...

[tdidymas]

Loving God is what is necessary. Those who love God will obey, confess their sins, live a holy life, and do good works.

Loving God is a result of life in Christ, not a cause.

I'm well aware salvation is impossible to attain by works. That's why I'm relying on the grace of God for salvation. I trust the grace of God to save those who believe and love God.

This statement by itself is an agreement with what I wrote previously, except the "believe and love God" can only be done 100% by those who realize that salvation is a free gift. See below ref to the passage in Hebrews.

A common misunderstanding. There are 2 types of gifts. Those given without any merit such as giving a birthday gift to a child. The other type is a gift given because of something someone has done such as a bonus for doing a good job. The reward is a gift and not wages because the giver was under no obligation but gave it freely due to his grace.

No, a bonus is wages. Although the corp doesn't have an obligation to pay a bonus, it is still the result of hard-working teams who did a bang-up job to sell product, so the bonus is a reward for their labor, this is why it is called a reward, as it is given to those who deserve it. Think about it, if you receive a bonus from your corp, you still must classify it as "wages or compensation" and it will appear as such on your W-2. In NT terminology, a gift is free always, especially spiritual gifts such as eternal life, talents for spiritual service, the Holy Spirit, and so on. This is why salvation is called a "free gift" by Paul in Rom. 5.

Scripture says believers must work. God doesn't do it for them.

If you work for salvation, you'll never get it. This is one of the main themes in Hebrews and Romans. Working for salvation is a "dead work" that Hebrews mentions. To enter God's rest, you must STOP WORKING (Heb. 4:10). If you are working for salvation, you're ultimately working for yourself, not for God. The only way you can work for God is to receive the free gift of salvation that is in Christ, then you can begin really working for God since you will then have no need to work for your own salvation. Heb. 9:14.

The rest of scripture that you pastor neglected to mention refutes your overly simplistic view of salvation.

What "rest of scripture" are you talking about? You need to be specific. The Bible I read tells me that grace is unmerited.
TD

 

[samir]

Loving God is a result of life in Christ, not a cause.

Not sure what that means. I know scripture says loving God and working is necessary for salvation and not automatic for everyone who has faith.

This statement by itself is an agreement with what I wrote previously, except the "believe and love God" can only be done 100% by those who realize that salvation is a free gift. See below ref to the passage in Hebrews.

The justification received at conversion is indeed a free gift but a person needs to put God first and love God if he wants to go to heaven. Justified believers who lose their love for God and go back to being sinners will not be saved.

No, a bonus is wages. Although the corp doesn't have an obligation to pay a bonus, it is still the result of hard-working teams who did a bang-up job to sell product, so the bonus is a reward for their labor, this is why it is called a reward, as it is given to those who deserve it. Think about it, if you receive a bonus from your corp, you still must classify it as "wages or compensation" and it will appear as such on your W-2. In NT terminology, a gift is free always, especially spiritual gifts such as eternal life, talents for spiritual service, the Holy Spirit, and so on. This is why salvation is called a "free gift" by Paul in Rom. 5.

When scripture contrasts grace verses works, it's teaching that salvation comes from God and is not earned by anything anyone does. That does not exclude the necessity of works to remain justified.

If you work for salvation, you'll never get it.

I never read that in scripture. There's a difference between trying to work you way to heaven on your own without God's grace versus doing faith, good works, and obeying the commandments while relying on the grace of God to reward those who love Him. The former is what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for doing. The latter is the teaching of scripture.

This is one of the main themes in Hebrews and Romans. Working for salvation is a "dead work" that Hebrews mentions. To enter God's rest, you must STOP WORKING (Heb. 4:10). If you are working for salvation, you're ultimately working for yourself, not for God. The only way you can work for God is to receive the free gift of salvation that is in Christ, then you can begin really working for God since you will then have no need to work for your own salvation. Heb. 9:14.

Heb 4:10 is about the Sabbath rest. Christians work out their salvation with fear and trembling knowing that it can be lost and rest from their works once they are in heaven.

What "rest of scripture" are you talking about? You need to be specific. The Bible I read tells me that grace is unmerited.
TD

The grace received at conversion was merited by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and not be anything anyone else has done. That grace saves those who believe and obey, not those with beliefs alone.

 

[EmSw]

It is because you don't understand God. He is not a distant person in a distant location that requires me to go somewhere to get His "gift."

Why is it I don't understand? Am I missing something? Am I beneath you that I can't understand?

Since you haven't gone to Him, I will believe Jesus when He says, 'And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life' (John 5:40). By your own words, you don't have life; you have chosen to do it your way, and not the way Jesus says. In verse 39, Jesus says this, 'Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me'.

Many think they have eternal life without coming (doing something) to Jesus. If you don't do it the way Jesus says, you are on your own. Many think they have a better way than the way He says. Not so, my friend.

This is how it works, according to Eph. 1-2 et al:
The gospel is preached, the Spirit of God awakens me to hear and believe, I am raised up to be in Christ and given the gift of the Spirit. I then recognize (some time later) that God gave me this gift of eternal life, since the Bible says "free gift." Oh, BTW, God was the one who also arranged my circumstances to get me to the place to hear the gospel. So then, it was all the work of God, and none of my own work. This is how unmerited grace works, according to scripture. Therefore I have no boasting statement about "I did my part," since God did all of it.
TD

You are not given life unless you go to Him. You must go to Him in order to receive the 'free gift'.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why is it I don't understand? Am I missing something? Am I beneath you that I can't understand?

What you seemed not to understand was that God is not far removed from us. That is particularly true for those of us who are being convicted by Him concerning Jesus Christ and His work.

It is not, for those who are inheriting eternal life, a matter of making a great pilgrimage to a far off place or even undertaking works of some kind to contact Him and be joined eternally with Him.

All we have to do is listen to His whisper concerning the truth of the gospel and we are communing with Him around the gospel message.

Since you haven't gone to Him, I will believe Jesus when He says, 'And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life' (John 5:40). By your own words, you don't have life; you have chosen to do it your way, and not the way Jesus says. In verse 39, Jesus says this, 'Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me'.
Many think they have eternal life without coming (doing something) to Jesus. If you don't do it the way Jesus says, you are on your own. Many think they have a better way than the way He says. Not so, my friend.

You are not given life unless you go to Him. You must go to Him in order to receive the 'free gift'.

Why do you assume that he hasn't gone to Him to receive eternal life?

I don't believe that anyone would disagree with you on the idea that we must turn to him to receive the gift He has for us.

The difference between you and many (myself included) is concerning the supposed distance and or labor required to contact Him in repentance and receive His free gift - not to mention holding on to it to the end.

Many of us would say that He is, of necessity, near at hand or we would not even be able to believe the gospel in the first place.

Therefore the "trip" to receive the gift is as close as a simple prayer or a heartfelt contact of some other kind with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

It all comes down to whether you have any merit before Almighty God. To have merit before Almighty God, you must present yourself to Him in the Image of Jesus Christ.

God bless you.

 

[EmSw]

What you seemed not to understand was that God is not far removed from us. That is particularly true for those of us who are being convicted by Him concerning Jesus Christ and His work.

I never said God is far from us. In fact, if He left any man for a second, the man would immediately die.

It is not, for those who are inheriting eternal life, a matter of making a great pilgrimage to a far off place or even undertaking works of some kind to contact Him and be joined eternally with Him.

I never said anyone had to make a pilgrimage.

All we have to do is listen to His whisper concerning the truth of the gospel and we are communing with Him around the gospel message.

Not listen to His whisper, but rather, listen and heed (obey) all of His word. Listen to David:

Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Those who continue in sin and iniquity do not commune with Him, for He will not hear them.

Why do you assume that he hasn't gone to Him to receive eternal life?

He said he did nothing. Do nothing, receive nothing.

I don't believe that anyone would disagree with you on the idea that we must turn to him to receive the gift He has for us.

The difference between you and many (myself included) is concerning the supposed distance and or labor required to contact Him in repentance and receive His free gift - not to mention holding on to it to the end.

Not only turn to Him, but also COME to Him. Again, I never said anything about distance. You must labor for eternal life. Have you not read these words of Jesus?

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.

Why do you speak against the words of truth the Savior Himself said?

Many of us would say that He is, of necessity, near at hand or we would not even be able to believe the gospel in the first place.

Therefore the "trip" to receive the gift is as close as a simple prayer or a heartfelt contact of some other kind with the Holy Spirit.

Again Marvin, I said nothing about distance. Enough is enough.

The 'trip' is to labor for the food which endures to everlasting life, and to strive to enter the narrow gate, through which is eternal life.

The sooner you understand what 'labor' and 'strive' mean, the sooner you will know the truth about the gift of eternal life.

 

[Geralt]

true, salvation by grace is no longer grace when it is earned.
that is why salvation is a 'gift'. UNDESERVED, UNMERITED.

the others who propose the alternative is simply forwarding the fact that salvation is a reward, earned.
as long as salvation is dependent on your performance, salvation is a reward, merited.
and therefore is no longer salvation by grace.

what they suggest as grace is the 'assistance' of doing good works, etc.. but then again it still does NOT disprove the conclusion that you DESERVE it as a reward since you have proven yourself by performance that you deserve it.

It is because you don't understand God. He is not a distant person in a distant location that requires me to go somewhere to get His "gift." This is how it works, according to Eph. 1-2 et al:
The gospel is preached, the Spirit of God awakens me to hear and believe, I am raised up to be in Christ and given the gift of the Spirit. I then recognize (some time later) that God gave me this gift of eternal life, since the Bible says "free gift." Oh, BTW, God was the one who also arranged my circumstances to get me to the place to hear the gospel. So then, it was all the work of God, and none of my own work. This is how unmerited grace works, according to scripture. Therefore I have no boasting statement about "I did my part," since God did all of it.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Not sure what that means. I know scripture says loving God and working is necessary for salvation and not automatic for everyone who has faith.

Apparently your usage of the terms "automatic" and "faith" having some connection falls short of NT teaching. In fact "auto" means "self". True faith is directed toward Christ and His work, and is a present and ongoing matter. What did I say that you're not sure what it means? "Loving God is a result of life in Christ, not a cause." This is a statement of cause and effect. God causes life in Christ (Eph. 2:1-10), then we love God as a result (1 Jn. 4:10).

If you are working (as necessity) for salvation (as you put it here), then you are working for yourself, not for God. I assert that it is impossible to love God as He requires, unless you first obtain salvation from Him, of which Christ's work is completely sufficient. If you don't yet believe that, then your conscience is not clear to serve God. Heb. 9:14.

The justification received at conversion is indeed a free gift but a person needs to put God first and love God if he wants to go to heaven. Justified believers who lose their love for God and go back to being sinners will not be saved.

Here is where you are sadly mistaken. A true believer is in God's hands, not his own (John 6). A true believer will not go back to being a sinner (1 John 3). A true believer always grows in love (1 John 4). Therefore, someone who "loses love for God" had only a feeling, and had no love actually. Love for God is a spiritual matter, not a feeling.

When scripture contrasts grace verses works, it's teaching that salvation comes from God and is not earned by anything anyone does. That does not exclude the necessity of works to remain justified.

I am in agreement with your 1st statement, but your 2nd statement negates the 1st. If works causes a person to remain justified, then it is no different than works causing one to be justified. You are reading James 2:24 wrongly. James is saying that the "mental assent" kind of faith that the gnostics were using is not adequate and does not establish a true and saving relationship with God. James is in full agreement with Paul, who wrote "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law." Note that he says "is justified," not "was." Justification is present tense, and is a real and present experience. God's grace alone saves, as your 1st statement declares, and there is no "but," as if the process changes after being saved. God's grace (i.e. faith in Christ) justifies us initially, keeps us justified, and completes us justified. Think about it. If true faith believes that one is justified by grace without works, then believes that one stays justified by works, then the faith has fundamentally changed. The faith for keeping is not the same as the faith for saving.

If a person must do something in addition to the free gift, then it is not a free gift. Staying justified is just as much a free gift as becoming justified. If you are expecting your works to keep you justified, then your faith is directed toward yourself, not toward Christ who saves!

I never read that in scripture. There's a difference between trying to work you way to heaven on your own without God's grace versus doing faith, good works, and obeying the commandments while relying on the grace of God to reward those who love Him. The former is what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for doing. The latter is the teaching of scripture.

If your reliance on the grace of God means that your good works and obedience are done in appreciation of Christ's complete work of redemption, then I agree with you. But if you are saying that good works and obeying commandments are necessary to obtain salvation (in addition to "relying on the grace of God"), then I can't agree, since you are doing essentially the same thing the Pharisees were doing. Rom 10:3-4 "For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." The righteousness of God comes from God and is a free gift, and can be obtained only by faith, and not by working for it.

Heb 4:10 is about the Sabbath rest. Christians work out their salvation with fear and trembling knowing that it can be lost and rest from their works once they are in heaven.

You need to seriously reread Hebrews. It is describing a rest that we have in this life, not in the afterlife. (4:1) "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Can you honestly say that he is not talking about a real and present experience? Of course he is!

Besides that, according to your logic, you don't yet have salvation, since you are reading that REST is after you die. How can you lose something you don't yet have? Methinks your doctrine is precarious, and that your Christian experience is precarious. I know what I am talking about because I used to think as you do, until I discovered the truth about what the scripture really teaches.

The grace received at conversion was merited by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and not be anything anyone else has done. That grace saves those who believe and obey, not those with beliefs alone.

Your definition of "belief" here is not New Testament usage. You seem to use it as if "belief" was merely mental assent. Rom. 3:28 says very clearly: "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law." Of this faith, Paul defines by saying (Rom. 10:10) "with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Here Paul is clear about the kind of faith that saves, which faith actually results in real righteousness and real salvation, which things come from God alone and not from the man who practices it. This makes salvation merited by Christ alone by the grace of God alone. It is a divine energy that produces it, and is unidirectional from God to us. In other words, our obedience results from the salvation we already have obtained from God. True believing Christians obey God because we are saved, and not in order to obtain it!.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Why is it I don't understand? Am I missing something? Am I beneath you that I can't understand?

Since you haven't gone to Him, I will believe Jesus when He says, 'And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life' (John 5:40). By your own words, you don't have life; you have chosen to do it your way, and not the way Jesus says. In verse 39, Jesus says this, 'Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me'.

Many think they have eternal life without coming (doing something) to Jesus. If you don't do it the way Jesus says, you are on your own. Many think they have a better way than the way He says. Not so, my friend.



You are not given life unless you go to Him. You must go to Him in order to receive the 'free gift'.

I explained how God works salvation in the reply above, but you either didn't understand it, or simply disregarded it.

Let's take your last statement at face value: "You must go to Him in order to receive the 'free gift'." Yet, the Bible states clearly "By grace you have been saved, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship..." (Eph. 2:8-10). This message from the apostle tells us that God gave us the free gift before we went to God to receive it!! We cannot boast of any action we took to receive the gift. The only thing we can boast about (and I do boast confidently) is that God transcends our unbelief by saving us without our permission!! I have faith in Christ to be justified because it is God's gift to me. I have a desire to do God's will because it is God's gift to me. I have a love for Christ because it is God's gift to me. I have an undying commitment to glorify God because it is God's gift to me. Phil. 2:13 says that God is the one at work, and I have experienced and continue to experience these glorious words, and I cannot hold back my tongue and keyboard to express this testimony to everyone I meet (whether online or face to face).
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Peace be with you.

It all comes down to whether you have any merit before Almighty God. To have merit before Almighty God, you must present yourself to Him in the Image of Jesus Christ.

God bless you.

There's no indication who you were responding to, but I can respond to this.

Are you already in the Image of Jesus Christ? You don't fall short in even one point?
TD

 

[Soyeong]

1st Timothy 4:16 , Paul is telling his young evangelist to "be careful of your doctrine" , to be sound in it.
And this is important.
The word also tells us that we can know other Christians by their love for one another, John 13:35.
And the word also tells us that we can discern other believers, is to, "know them by their fruit". Matthew 7:16.

Indeed, sound doctrine is important:

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake not my law.

What i like to to "know" about another Believer is this.

>What are you trusting to get you to heaven.<

So, lets do that now.....
What are you trusting to get you to heaven. ???????
Ask yourself...
What are you trusting right now, to get you to heaven?
And if your inner man answer comes back as "i do this", in any shape or form...as in confessing sins to be forgiven, or living holy, taking communion, keeping commandments, doing works, or enduring to the end.....etc
Then, this means all THAT is what you are TRUSTING IN to get you to heaven.
And that means you are NOT Trusting in Christ (BLOOD Atonement) ALONE to get you to heaven, and God does not offer anything else.
Your Trust cant be both, as FAITH is Singular.....its not 1+1, or This and THAT.
See, the answer has to be SINGULAR= Im trusting in Christ and HIS finished Work on the Cross, ....OR.... you are trusting in something else.
And that something else is YOURSELF.
You are trusting in yourself, in your own works to be saved or to stay saved, and that is NOT hearing the Gospel and believing in Jesus.

"As many as BELIEVED IN JESUS", John 1:12
This is your salvation. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Its what Jesus did FOR you on a Cross and why He's in Heaven right now making Intercession FOR YOU.
Nothing you do.
Ever.
= NO confessing sins to be forgiven, no living holy to be saved, no taking communion to be saved, no keeping commandments to be saved, no doing works to be saved, no enduring to the end to be saved.., and this is because JESUS SAVED YOU = You dont save you or keep yourself saved.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so our salvation necessarily being saved from the penalty of our lawless actions and being saved from continuing to do lawless actions. Living by faith is depending on God to lead us into how we should live by following His law, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). Living by faith does not refer to some other manner of living that does not involve obedience to God's commands. However, it is not our obedience to God's commands that saves us, but rather it is our faith or dependency on Him that saves us, which also leads us to obedience. So it's not that you need to keep doing enough good works to maintain your salvation, but rather it is your faith that maintains your good works and your salvation from not doing good works.

It doesn't do a lot of good to say that you just need to believe in Jesus if you don't correctly understand what it is that you should be believing about him or what he is saving us from doing. He is our redeemer from lawlessness (Titus 2:14) for the purpose of freeing us to obey God's law. We are saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:8-10) and OT Scriptures are God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[EmSw]

I explained how God works salvation in the reply above, but you either didn't understand it, or simply disregarded it.

Or, maybe I did understand it.

Let's take your last statement at face value: "You must go to Him in order to receive the 'free gift'." Yet, the Bible states clearly "By grace you have been saved, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship..." (Eph. 2:8-10). This message from the apostle tells us that God gave us the free gift before we went to God to receive it!! We cannot boast of any action we took to receive the gift.

Why do you disregard Jesus' very words?

'And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life' (John 5:40)

You must go to Him, or you don't have life! It doesn't matter if it's a gift through grace; you still have to go to Him!

Why would a person boast going to Him?

The only thing we can boast about (and I do boast confidently) is that God transcends our unbelief by saving us without our permission!! I have faith in Christ to be justified because it is God's gift to me. I have a desire to do God's will because it is God's gift to me. I have a love for Christ because it is God's gift to me. I have an undying commitment to glorify God because it is God's gift to me. Phil. 2:13 says that God is the one at work, and I have experienced and continue to experience these glorious words, and I cannot hold back my tongue and keyboard to express this testimony to everyone I meet (whether online or face to face).
TD

No need to boast about anything. That's wonderful you love Him; you love Him by doing something, that is, keeping His commandments. Do I need to provide any passages which state this?

 

[tdidymas]

Why do you disregard Jesus' very words?

'And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life' (John 5:40)

You must go to Him, or you don't have life! It doesn't matter if it's a gift through grace; you still have to go to Him!

Why would a person boast going to Him?



No need to boast about anything. That's wonderful you love Him; you love Him by doing something, that is, keeping His commandments. Do I need to provide any passages which state this?

Why do you disregard Jesus' very words?

Yet, you disregarded the teaching of the apostle Paul as I quoted him from Eph. 2:8-10, therefore, so much for accusations.

All I am trying to do is to show that there is a fuller dimension to Jesus' words which you are failing to see, apparently. Yes, we all must come to Christ for life. At first, because of our limited human understanding, we think that our action of "coming to Christ" is a logical prerequisite to having life. But Paul is teaching that our very coming to Christ is gifted to us by God. It is actually God's work, not ours. The energy that drives us to Christ is the very grace that comes from God alone. It is saying that God gets all the glory for our understanding and believing the gospel, which includes our favorable response to it. We cannot stand before God to say "I did my part in my redemption," because to do so would be an abominable boast. We cannot stand in God's presence and say "I kept myself justified," because this would also be an arrogant brag. This is why the idea of meriting salvation or justification or anything else having to do with our redemption is repugnant to the one who understands that God has done all the work of it, and that the work Christ did is sufficient for ultimate salvation.
TD

 

[samir]

Apparently your usage of the terms "automatic" and "faith" having some connection falls short of NT teaching. In fact "auto" means "self". True faith is directed toward Christ and His work, and is a present and ongoing matter. What did I say that you're not sure what it means? "Loving God is a result of life in Christ, not a cause." This is a statement of cause and effect. God causes life in Christ (Eph. 2:1-10), then we love God as a result (1 Jn. 4:10).

All I know is scripture says loving God is necessary for salvation and those who don't love God won't be saved. Many people who believe don't love God and such people won't be saved despite their belief about Jesus.

If you are working (as necessity) for salvation (as you put it here), then you are working for yourself, not for God.

I work out my salvation with fear and trembling as scripture teaches. I'm working for myself for salvation and for God.

I assert that it is impossible to love God as He requires, unless you first obtain salvation from Him, of which Christ's work is completely sufficient. If you don't yet believe that, then your conscience is not clear to serve God. Heb. 9:14.

If Christ's work were completely sufficient, faith would be unnecessary.

Here is where you are sadly mistaken. A true believer is in God's hands, not his own (John 6). A true believer will not go back to being a sinner (1 John 3). A true believer always grows in love (1 John 4). Therefore, someone who "loses love for God" had only a feeling, and had no love actually. Love for God is a spiritual matter, not a feeling.

None of those chapters say what you claim.

I am in agreement with your 1st statement, but your 2nd statement negates the 1st. If works causes a person to remain justified, then it is no different than works causing one to be justified.

There is a clear difference. It's obvious to me so I'm not sure how to explain it to you if you can't see it.

You are reading James 2:24 wrongly. James is saying that the "mental assent" kind of faith that the gnostics were using is not adequate and does not establish a true and saving relationship with God. James is in full agreement with Paul, who wrote "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law." Note that he says "is justified," not "was." Justification is present tense, and is a real and present experience. God's grace alone saves, as your 1st statement declares, and there is no "but," as if the process changes after being saved. God's grace (i.e. faith in Christ) justifies us initially, keeps us justified, and completes us justified. Think about it. If true faith believes that one is justified by grace without works, then believes that one stays justified by works, then the faith has fundamentally changed. The faith for keeping is not the same as the faith for saving.

Your opinion about justification can not be found anywhere in scripture. Faith is believing and the same faith is always necessary. One is justified and stays justified by grace, not by works. A person who rejects God and goes back to living in sin has rejected that grace.

If a person must do something in addition to the free gift, then it is not a free gift. Staying justified is just as much a free gift as becoming justified.

Where can I find any of that in scripture? I read the NT several times and it's not there.

If you are expecting your works to keep you justified, then your faith is directed toward yourself, not toward Christ who saves!

My faith is directed toward Christ who promised to give salvation as a reward those who love Him.

If your reliance on the grace of God means that your good works and obedience are done in appreciation of Christ's complete work of redemption, then I agree with you. But if you are saying that good works and obeying commandments are necessary to obtain salvation (in addition to "relying on the grace of God"), then I can't agree, since you are doing essentially the same thing the Pharisees were doing. Rom 10:3-4 "For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." The righteousness of God comes from God and is a free gift, and can be obtained only by faith, and not by working for it.

Scripture says if you have faith that can move mountains but have not love you are nothing. Love is greater than faith. Those who love God go to heaven. Those who don't love God won't be there. It's all by grace that God gives to those who love Him.

But if you are saying that good works and obeying commandments are necessary to obtain salvation (in addition to "relying on the grace of God"), then I can't agree, since you are doing essentially the same thing the Pharisees were doing.

The Pharisees relied on good works instead of grace. Scripture says one must cooperate with God's grace by doing good works. I'm relying on the grace of God to save those who do good works out of love for God.

You need to seriously reread Hebrews. It is describing a rest that we have in this life, not in the afterlife. (4:1) "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Can you honestly say that he is not talking about a real and present experience? Of course he is!

In the NKJV that I use it is clearly in the future. It's a promise that remains. Christians should be fearful because they could come up short and not enter that rest. If they had already entered that rest, the promise would be already obtained and there would be no reason to fear not entering it.

Heb 4:1 (NKJV) - "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it."

Besides that, according to your logic, you don't yet have salvation, since you are reading that REST is after you die. How can you lose something you don't yet have? Methinks your doctrine is precarious, and that your Christian experience is precarious. I know what I am talking about because I used to think as you do, until I discovered the truth about what the scripture really teaches.

The word "salvation" means deliverance. A person is saved from sin when he becomes justified but he doesn't enter the heavenly rest until he dies. Until then, justification can be lost.

Your definition of "belief" here is not New Testament usage. You seem to use it as if "belief" was merely mental assent.

Faith in scripture refers to a firm mental assent of what God has revealed. Many Protestants I know limit it to just believing something about Jesus (that God raised him from the dead) based on Rom 10:9-10 which I agree in not New Testament usage.

Rom. 3:28 says very clearly: "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law."

I've never met a Christian who was relying on the Law of Moses for salvation so I'm not sure why you're quoting that verse. I think it was primarily aimed at Jews who still felt they had to observe the Law.

Of this faith, Paul defines by saying (Rom. 10:10) "with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Here Paul is clear about the kind of faith that saves, which faith actually results in real righteousness and real salvation, which things come from God alone and not from the man who practices it.

I agree with believing and confession in Rom 10:10. If you choose to repent and live for God as a result of your faith then your faith will save you. If not, your faith won't save you.

This makes salvation merited by Christ alone by the grace of God alone.

How did you arrive at that conclusion? That's not what I got from the verses you quoted.

It is a divine energy that produces it, and is unidirectional from God to us. In other words, our obedience results from the salvation we already have obtained from God. True believing Christians obey God because we are saved, and not in order to obtain it!.
TD

Where can I find that in scripture?

 

[EmSw]

Yet, you disregarded the teaching of the apostle Paul as I quoted him from Eph. 2:8-10, therefore, so much for accusations.

All I am trying to do is to show that there is a fuller dimension to Jesus' words which you are failing to see, apparently. Yes, we all must come to Christ for life. At first, because of our limited human understanding, we think that our action of "coming to Christ" is a logical prerequisite to having life. But Paul is teaching that our very coming to Christ is gifted to us by God. It is actually God's work, not ours. The energy that drives us to Christ is the very grace that comes from God alone. It is saying that God gets all the glory for our understanding and believing the gospel, which includes our favorable response to it. We cannot stand before God to say "I did my part in my redemption," because to do so would be an abominable boast. We cannot stand in God's presence and say "I kept myself justified," because this would also be an arrogant brag. This is why the idea of meriting salvation or justification or anything else having to do with our redemption is repugnant to the one who understands that God has done all the work of it, and that the work Christ did is sufficient for ultimate salvation.
TD

Perhaps you haven't read for what each one is judged. Each man/woman/child will be given according to their works. No one is judged according to the works of Jesus! Don't merit to yourself, or steal, the virtue, excellence, and worth of Jesus. Don't be deceived, for what a man sows, that shall he reap! If you think you can live in sin and claim Jesus' righteousness, YOU ARE MOCKING GOD!

He is our Righteousness, the righteousness, we are to follow and imitate. Jesus never said to claim His righteousness as your own. John said anyone who practices righteousness is righteous. Paul said obedience leads to righteousness, also, awake to righteousness and do not sin.

 

[tdidymas]

Perhaps you haven't read for what each one is judged. Each man/woman/child will be given according to their works. No one is judged according to the works of Jesus! Don't merit to yourself, or steal, the virtue, excellence, and worth of Jesus. Don't be deceived, for what a man sows, that shall he reap! If you think you can live in sin and claim Jesus' righteousness, YOU ARE MOCKING GOD!

He is our Righteousness, the righteousness, we are to follow and imitate. Jesus never said to claim His righteousness as your own. John said anyone who practices righteousness is righteous. Paul said obedience leads to righteousness, also, awake to righteousness and do not sin.

Tell me honestly, are you without sin?
TD

 

[com7fy8]

See, the answer has to be SINGULAR= Im trusting in Christ and HIS finished Work on the Cross, ....OR.... you are trusting in something else.

I would say we don't trust a "what", but we trust who > Jesus.

About it being only about Christ's finished work on the cross, our Apostle Paul does say >

"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:10)

We have reconciliation because of Jesus Christ's work on the cross. And then we have His life which saves us, through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (1 Peter 1:3). So, there is the benefit of the cross, then of His resurrection.

And we have how being perfected in His love makes us so we can have "boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

And Hebrews 12:4-11 plainly says we need our Father's correction, or else "you are illegitimate and not sons". And this scripture gives what is guaranteed to happen because of our Heavenly Father's correction.

And all this is done by God > "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

 

[tdidymas]

tdidymas said: Apparently your usage of the terms "automatic" and "faith" having some connection falls short of NT teaching. In fact "auto" means "self". True faith is directed toward Christ and His work, and is a present and ongoing matter. What did I say that you're not sure what it means? "Loving God is a result of life in Christ, not a cause." This is a statement of cause and effect. God causes life in Christ (Eph. 2:1-10), then we love God as a result (1 Jn. 4:10).

All I know is scripture says loving God is necessary for salvation and those who don't love God won't be saved. Many people who believe don't love God and such people won't be saved despite their belief about Jesus.

Anyone who doesn't love God is not a believer. 1 Jn. 4:8 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

John 6

). A true believer will not go back to being a sinner (1 John 3). A true believer always grows in love (1 John 4). Therefore, someone who "loses love for God" had only a feeling, and had no love actually. Love for God is a spiritual matter, not a feeling.

None of those chapters say what you claim.

Actually they do. Let me quote it to you to make it very clear:
1 John 3:9: Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 4:7-8: Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

What are you disagreeing with here? That love is a spiritual matter and not a feeling? 1 Jn. 2:17b "he who does the will of God abides forever" - it says who does God's will, not who feels love.

James 2:24

wrongly. James is saying that the "mental assent" kind of faith that the gnostics were using is not adequate and does not establish a true and saving relationship with God. James is in full agreement with Paul, who wrote "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law." Note that he says "is justified," not "was." Justification is present tense, and is a real and present experience. God's grace alone saves, as your 1st statement declares, and there is no "but," as if the process changes after being saved. God's grace (i.e. faith in Christ) justifies us initially, keeps us justified, and completes us justified. Think about it. If true faith believes that one is justified by grace without works, then believes that one stays justified by works, then the faith has fundamentally changed. The faith for keeping is not the same as the faith for saving.
Your opinion about justification can not be found anywhere in scripture. Faith is believing and the same faith is always necessary. One is justified and stays justified by grace, not by works. A person who rejects God and goes back to living in sin has rejected that grace.
If a person must do something in addition to the free gift, then it is not a free gift. Staying justified is just as much a free gift as becoming justified.

Where can I find any of that in scripture? I read the NT several times and it's not there.

You need to keep reading. I grant that it is not an easy concept. If it were easy, then the apostle Paul would not have had so much trouble with the Judaizers and the churches dividing over it. But in fact, he spends many words trying to explain it in Romans 3-5, Galatians 3-4, and Ephesians 1-2.
And Rom. 11:6a "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace."

If you are expecting your works to keep you justified, then your faith is directed toward yourself, not toward Christ who saves!

My faith is directed toward Christ who promised to give salvation as a reward those who love Him.

Yet if you are relying on your works to keep you, then your faith is in yourself.

If your reliance on the grace of God means that your good works and obedience are done in appreciation of Christ's complete work of redemption, then I agree with you. But if you are saying that good works and obeying commandments are necessary to obtain salvation (in addition to "relying on the grace of God"), then I can't agree, since you are doing essentially the same thing the Pharisees were doing. Rom 10:3-4 "For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." The righteousness of God comes from God and is a free gift, and can be obtained only by faith, and not by working for it.

Scripture says if you have faith that can move mountains but have not love you are nothing. Love is greater than faith. Those who love God go to heaven. Those who don't love God won't be there. It's all by grace that God gives to those who love Him.

Yes, according to Jesus, if you love God, then you will have eternal life. Luke 10:27-28.

But if you are saying that good works and obeying commandments are necessary to obtain salvation (in addition to "relying on the grace of God"), then I can't agree, since you are doing essentially the same thing the Pharisees were doing.

The Pharisees relied on good works instead of grace. Scripture says one must cooperate with God's grace by doing good works. I'm relying on the grace of God to save those who do good works out of love for God.

Where do you find this idea that "one must cooperate with God's grace by doing good works"? Can you give me a scripture reference?

The Bible I read says this:
Rom. 3:20-22a "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe."
and this:
Phil. 3:8-9 "Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith."

You need to seriously reread Hebrews. It is describing a rest that we have in this life, not in the afterlife. (4:1) "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Can you honestly say that he is not talking about a real and present experience? Of course he is!

In the NKJV that I use it is clearly in the future. It's a promise that remains. Christians should be fearful because they could come up short and not enter that rest. If they had already entered that rest, the promise would be already obtained and there would be no reason to fear not entering it.

Heb 4:1 (NKJV) - "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it."

The promise remains for those living now to enter His rest now!! It is future only to those who have not yet entered it! Read the context of this passage carefully. If any of those living now seem to have come short of it, then they should seek to enter rest now. You need to get your interpretation of scripture from the context of it, not from the Roman Catholic Church or the Seventh Day Adventist Church which teaches that wrong interpretation which is actually an imposition on the word of God. The writer of Hebrews is exhorting people to enter rest now, not wait until some future time.

Besides that, according to your logic, you don't yet have salvation, since you are reading that REST is after you die. How can you lose something you don't yet have? Methinks your doctrine is precarious, and that your Christian experience is precarious. I know what I am talking about because I used to think as you do, until I discovered the truth about what the scripture really teaches.

The word "salvation" means deliverance. A person is saved from sin when he becomes justified but he doesn't enter the heavenly rest until he dies. Until then, justification can be lost.

If a person is saved from sin, then how can that person continue sinning??
Rom. 6:2 "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" and 1 Jn. 3:8 "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."
If a person is still living a sinful lifestyle, then he hasn't been delivered, and hasn't been saved, and therefore isn't justified.
Therefore your whole idea about losing justification is wrong according to scripture, and it is likely that your concept of faith is unscriptural, because Paul declares plainly "with the heart man believes unto righteousness."

Your definition of "belief" here is not New Testament usage. You seem to use it as if "belief" was merely mental assent.

Faith in scripture refers to a firm mental assent of what God has revealed. Many Protestants I know limit it to just believing something about Jesus (that God raised him from the dead) based on Rom 10:9-10 which I agree in not New Testament usage.

Your definition of faith is as wrong as the RCC teaches. Mere mental assent is the very kind of faith that James says is vain and dead (Ja. 2:24). Paul's usage of faith is the correct definition "with the heart man believes unto righteousness." (Rom. 10:10). James, Romans, and 1 John all agree that if your lifestyle doesn't prove you are a follower of Christ, then your confession is nothing but hot air.

Rom. 3:28 says very clearly: "We maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law."

I've never met a Christian who was relying on the Law of Moses for salvation so I'm not sure why you're quoting that verse. I think it was primarily aimed at Jews who still felt they had to observe the Law.

The Law of Moses is the only law (legal system) that the Bible talks about. Morality, the 10 Commandments, and all Jesus' commands are a subset and restatement of the law of Moses. Good works are defined by the law of Moses, and clarified by Jesus in the gospels. The Law of Christ is simply a clarification of the Law of Moses and what that Law was trying to accomplish. If you are relying on any other law to define your good works to keep you justified, then you are in the same precarious position as someone who relies on "the Law of Moses" as you term it. Essentially, if you rely on your good works to keep you saved, then you are relying on the Law of Moses.

Of this faith, Paul defines by saying (Rom. 10:10) "with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Here Paul is clear about the kind of faith that saves, which faith actually results in real righteousness and real salvation, which things come from God alone and not from the man who practices it.

I agree with believing and confession in Rom 10:10. If you choose to repent and live for God as a result of your faith then your faith will save you. If not, your faith won't save you.

I'm just trying to explain how to purify your faith, and direct it to Christ alone, and to stop directing some of your faith toward yourself.

This makes salvation merited by Christ alone by the grace of God alone.

How did you arrive at that conclusion? That's not what I got from the verses you quoted.

OK, then what about this:
Heb. 7:25 "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."
This statement is about the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to save us completely, because performance of the law does not make anyone complete:
Heb. 7:19 "for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God."

It is a divine energy that produces it, and is unidirectional from God to us. In other words, our obedience results from the salvation we already have obtained from God. True believing Christians obey God because we are saved, and not in order to obtain it!.
TD

Where can I find that in scripture?

2 Cor. 4:7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us."
Phil. 2:13 "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."
TD

 

[EmSw]

Tell me honestly, are you without sin?
TD

Honestly, I am not without sin. What some can't seem to wrap their minds around is that everyone is a sinner, but not everyone abides, lives, practices, and continues in sin. Some don't know the sin they abide in because they don't go to the Light to have their sins exposed.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.

 

[EmSw]

Anyone who doesn't love God is not a believer. 1 Jn. 4:8 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

Actually they do. Let me quote it to you to make it very clear:
1 John 3:9: Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 4:7-8: Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

What are you disagreeing with here? That love is a spiritual matter and not a feeling? 1 Jn. 2:17b "he who does the will of God abides forever" - it says who does God's will, not who feels love.

And how does one love God?

John 14:15
If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus doesn't say 'please, please' keep my commandments. He commands us to keep His commandments if we love Him. It is only by keeping His commandments that we abide in His love.