It really doesn't matter.

[shinbits]

You know, I took some time off from the Crevo area, and did a lot of thinking.

What I basically came to realize, is that there is no reason scientifically to not believe in God.

Second, I realized that the debates in the end don't matter.

On the evolutionist side, it really doesn't matter how good a point is made.
The Bible says that all flesh is at enmity with God. Jesus also said that the world hates him, because he testifies that what does is evil.

We're dealing with hate, not lack of knowledge.

When I think of the people around the world who are getting torchured and killed for the sake of the Gospel, and how even in this country, people want God out, I know that our fight is bigger then facts. Our fight is against hatred.

Remember the Pharisees, who refused to believe Christ, no matter how many miracles he did, and no matter how good a point he made. Remember, there were times that what Christ said made so much sense, that he completely silenced the Pharisees.

But again, it is not even against people. The Bible says we fight against the powers and principalities of darkness, meaning the forces of hell.

There is plenty of reason to believe in ID. Those who don't want to chose not to and wont.

It is important to learn what you can about ID, creation and evolution. But keep in mind, that people who don't believe in ID don't do so because of lack of facts. They do so because they are "at enmity with God".

Learn what you can. But salvation is up to the Holy Spirit, and the loving sharing of the Gospel.

Peace.

 

[chaoschristian]

It does matter, since you just stated that by accepting evolution you hate God.

If you think you didn't say that, then go back over your post and think through your language again.

You are, of course, not the first person to say that evolution is of Satan or that Christians who accept evolutionary theory are deceived haters of God.

You've also tied rejection of evolutionary theory to salvation of the soul. This would seem to be new to orthodox Christianity. Do you care to substantiate your reasoning, or are you going to call it quits now that you've provided this self-satisfied answer?

You are right in one respect, though. We are fighting a spiritual war. Our enemy wants to divide us against one another and using the crevo debate is just a good a tool as any.

I accept on faith that you are a faithful Christian. You are after all posting in the Christians only section of CF, thus telling me you witnessed in the affirmative to both the CF statement of faith and the Nicene Creed.

Please note that I have done the same, and while I do not expect you to necessarily agree with me on my positions regarding evolutionary theory, I do expect you to respect my faith and restrain yourself from engaging in the type of argument you just asserted.

Go ask Vossler. He and I crossed swords at the beginning, but now we accept each other as Brothers in Christ despite the fact that we still think the other is completely mistaken about evolution.

In that regard, CF has fulfilled its mission and I think that's pretty neat.

P.S. Belief in God is not connected with science. My belief in God is a result of faith sustained by His grace. I don't know that there are any TEs on this forum who would assert that science must prove God in order for one to believe in God.

You know, I took some time off from the Crevo area, and did a lot of thinking.

What I basically came to realize, is that there is no reason scientifically to not believe in God.

Second, I realized that the debates in the end don't matter.

On the evolutionist side, it really doesn't matter how good a point is made.
The Bible says that all flesh is at enmity with God. Jesus also said that the world hates him, because he testifies that what does is evil.

We're dealing with hate, not lack of knowledge.

When I think of the people around the world who are getting torchured and killed for the sake of the Gospel, and how even in this country, people want God out, I know that our fight is bigger then facts. Our fight is against hatred.

Remember the Pharisees, who refused to believe Christ, no matter how many miracles he did, and no matter how good a point he made. Remember, there were times that what Christ said made so much sense, that he completely silenced the Pharisees.

But again, it is not even against people. The Bible says we fight against the powers and principalities of darkness, meaning the forces of hell.

There is plenty of reason to believe in ID. Those who don't want to chose not to and wont.

It is important to learn what you can about ID, creation and evolution. But keep in mind, that people who don't believe in ID don't do so because of lack of facts. They do so because they are "at enmity with God".

Learn what you can. But salvation is up to the Holy Spirit, and the loving sharing of the Gospel.

Peace.

 

[Willtor]

You know, I took some time off from the Crevo area, and did a lot of thinking.

What I basically came to realize, is that there is no reason scientifically to not believe in God.

Second, I realized that the debates in the end don't matter.

But debates have helped some of us to come to the positions we now hold.

On the evolutionist side, it really doesn't matter how good a point is made.
The Bible says that all flesh is at enmity with God. Jesus also said that the world hates him, because he testifies that what does is evil.

We're dealing with hate, not lack of knowledge.

When I think of the people around the world who are getting torchured and killed for the sake of the Gospel, and how even in this country, people want God out, I know that our fight is bigger then facts. Our fight is against hatred.

Remember the Pharisees, who refused to believe Christ, no matter how many miracles he did, and no matter how good a point he made. Remember, there were times that what Christ said made so much sense, that he completely silenced the Pharisees.

But again, it is not even against people. The Bible says we fight against the powers and principalities of darkness, meaning the forces of hell.

There is plenty of reason to believe in ID. Those who don't want to chose not to and wont.

It is important to learn what you can about ID, creation and evolution. But keep in mind, that people who don't believe in ID don't do so because of lack of facts. They do so because they are "at enmity with God".

Then there are some of us who think that the mechanism by which we were intelligently designed was creation (primarily) via genetic crossover, mutation, and natural selection.

Learn what you can. But salvation is up to the Holy Spirit, and the loving sharing of the Gospel.

Peace.

Then how can you say that people (like myself) who think that it's likely that we evolved are at enmity with God? How does Salvation by the Father, through the Son, in the Spirit conflict with the mechanism by which He created us?

You're going to have to show me, explicitly, how I am at enmity with God. By Grace, I think I am not.

 

[PaladinValer]

Manicheanism rears agains

 

[Willtor]

Manicheanism rears agains

To be fair, Manicheeism relies heavily on Docetism. What's the connection that you see? Is it discussion over particulars that quickly become "enmity with God" issues?

 

[The Lady Kate]

What I basically came to realize, is that there is no reason scientifically to not believe in God.

True enough, but it should be noted, there is no reason scientifically to believe in Him either.

Our faith is not something that can be observed, tested, verified by any objective means... all of us here have been touched by Him, but how to explain that in terms which anyone would understand and accept as true.... just not going to happen.

We are all individuals, and I believe that God communicates with each of us on an individual level. The message is the same, but the means of communicating it vaires.

We're dealing with hate, not lack of knowledge.

When I think of the people around the world who are getting torchured and killed for the sake of the Gospel, and how even in this country, people want God out, I know that our fight is bigger then facts. Our fight is against hatred.

Not to sound dense, but who exactly is "we" in this passage?

There is plenty of reason to believe in ID. Those who don't want to chose not to and wont.

Remember that even the proponents of ID claim that it does not necessarily involve God.

It is important to learn what you can about ID, creation and evolution. But keep in mind, that people who don't believe in ID don't do so because of lack of facts. They do so because they are "at enmity with God".

So anyone who disagrees with ID is an enemy of God?

Learn what you can. But salvation is up to the Holy Spirit, and the loving sharing of the Gospel.

And not with acceptance of ID. Remember that.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

To be fair, Manicheeism relies heavily on Docetism. What's the connection that you see? Is it discussion over particulars that quickly become "enmity with God" issues?

could you elaborate, there appears to be no organic relationship between the two ideas.

manichaeism has at its heart the radical dualism of light and dark with dark assigned to the physical world and light to the spiritual one.

docetism has at its root the response to persecution and how the sacraments relate to the priest who performs them.

i really don't see how you can put manichaeism "on top of" docetism, it reverses the chronology even..... manichaeism having very ancient roots in zorasterism.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

We're dealing with hate, not lack of knowledge.

When I think of the people around the world who are getting torchured and killed for the sake of the Gospel, and how even in this country, people want God out, I know that our fight is bigger then facts. Our fight is against hatred.

Remember the Pharisees, who refused to believe Christ, no matter how many miracles he did, and no matter how good a point he made. Remember, there were times that what Christ said made so much sense, that he completely silenced the Pharisees.

But again, it is not even against people. The Bible says we fight against the powers and principalities of darkness, meaning the forces of hell.

the problem with this is that is radically "moralizes" knowledge, making knowledge not "out there" to be discovered but completely inside of only the moral man. to apply this kind of activity to religious or spiritual knowledge is one thing, but to apply it to the universe, to subject the epistemology of the natural world to such seems to fly in the face of the accomplishments of science over 400 years to remove just such moralism from the domain.

the fact is, that if all knowledge, including scientific knowledge of the universe is this radically moral, as you claim, then it ends up in the solipism of each individual for you simply can not have an intersubjectivity where moral or ethical concerns are primary and the facts are secondary.

look at how the principle of moral knowledge, of a private universe of discourse, of private moral access to knowledge has fragmented the protestant theology. it is one thing to assert the illumination of the Holy Spirit to read Scripture but yet another to allow each man to do right in his own eyes(the heart of solipism). there is no corrective system to control the fact that each one of us continues to sin in this life, which works itself out to mean that we all believe false things. yet with the moralization of knowledge we are incapable of allowing change to our knowledge for that would not just be wrong but evil and who can compromise with evil?

yet science can change and correct itself. first because the world is out there to be an intersubject point of contact and second because science "objectifies" knowledge which eliminates the morality and lessens the personal involvement and the cry---you believe evil things, which i must destroy. that seems to drive moralized knowledge....

 

[Willtor]

could you elaborate, there appears to be no organic relationship between the two ideas.

manichaeism has at its heart the radical dualism of light and dark with dark assigned to the physical world and light to the spiritual one.

docetism has at its root the response to persecution and how the sacraments relate to the priest who performs them.

i really don't see how you can put manichaeism "on top of" docetism, it reverses the chronology even..... manichaeism having very ancient roots in zorasterism.

I don't understand that particular root of Docetism. As in any Gnostic sect, the notion that God would take on actual (sinful) flesh is a contradiction: Docetism. How does Manicheeism trace to Zorasterism?

Maybe I spoke out of turn and my ideas of roots are muddled.

 

[vossler]

It does matter, since you just stated that by accepting evolution you hate God.

If you think you didn't say that, then go back over your post and think through your language again.

I read that I didn't glean the same message. Could you please explain how that said by accepting evolution you hate God?

Go ask Vossler. He and I crossed swords at the beginning, but now we accept each other as Brothers in Christ despite the fact that we still think the other is completely mistaken about evolution.

Yes, you speakth the truth; except I've always thought of you as a brother - however distant and far removed you may have been - in Christ. The difference now is that once we got close enough to allow the shields to be lowered our hearts were revealed and the love that was there all the time was given the opportunity to come forth.

 

[DailyBlessings]

So what is it that we supposedly hate? Christians?

 

[notto]

It would seem as if in your time here, you never really listed to the Christians who accept evolution.

Evolution is not equal to atheism.

I don't hate God (kind of hard to be a Christian if I did)

You are putting forth nothing but strawmen.

You are a great creationist.

 

[PaladinValer]

To be fair, Manicheeism relies heavily on Docetism. What's the connection that you see? Is it discussion over particulars that quickly become "enmity with God" issues?

Secular is bad and spiritual is good. That's Manichean.

 

[Willtor]

Secular is bad and spiritual is good. That's Manichean.

Okay. I see that. Dividing spheres of existence. Actually, now that you mention it, I think this is (becoming?) a pretty popular notion in the Church, these days.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Secular is bad and spiritual is good. That's Manichean.

no it is not.

physical is not the same thing as secular. secular is opposed to sacred, both can and do exist in the physical world. it is the physical world itself that was branded evil by manicheanians.

how can we intelligently discuss things without sharing a common vocabulary?

unless you wish to pursue why you believe manichaeism poses a secular/sacred distinction rather than the commonly accepted view of physical/spiritual. in that case please provide documentation i can read and understand to support your contention.

 

[PaladinValer]

Yet secular doesn't mean wrong or bad.

 

[shinbits]

Hi all.

First, I do acknowledge that there are theistic evolutionists who also call themselves Christian.


I really should've specified what I mean.

Yes, there are theistic evolutionists. But there are also many, many evolutionists who are atheists. These really are the one's I meant to adress.

If you randomly select a thread about creationism or ID, either on this forum or a different message board, you will find that many have used evolution as a tool to mock Christ, and any belief in him.

I do believe that salvation is of the Spirit, and not scientific findings, since you can't prove or disprove God, though you can offer evidence of God.

And by "we", I meant Christians who believe in Christ as the only way to the Father, as Jesus himself said.

Basically, I just didn't want any Christian to get discouraged by the many evolutionists who enjoy belitteling Christians, and have been in a way, persecuted as such.


To those who believe in evolution, and yet maintain a kind and civil attitude while debating, my hat's off to you, and I hope one day you'll also believe in Christ.

To those who are Christian and believe in evolution, I don't want to argue here, but I do hope that you believe everything the Bible has to say, about life, about origins, and that you believe God's Word is infalliable.

God bless you all.

 

[random_guy]

Hi all.

First, I do acknowledge that there are theistic evolutionists who also call themselves Christian.


I really should've specified what I mean.

Yes, there are theistic evolutionists. But there are also many, many evolutionists who are atheists. These really are the one's I meant to adress.

If you randomly select a thread about creationism or ID, either on this forum or a different message board, you will find that many have used evolution as a tool to mock Christ, and any belief in him.

I do believe that salvation is of the Spirit, and not scientific findings, since you can't prove or disprove God, though you can offer evidence of God.

And by "we", I meant Christians who believe in Christ as the only way to the Father, as Jesus himself said.

Basically, I just didn't want any Christian to get discouraged by the many evolutionists who enjoy belitteling Christians, and have been in a way, persecuted as such.


To those who believe in evolution, and yet maintain a kind and civil attitude while debating, my hat's off to you, and I hope one day you'll also believe in Christ.

To those who are Christian and believe in evolution, I don't want to argue here, but I do hope that you believe everything the Bible has to say, about life, about origins, and that you believe God's Word is infalliable.

God bless you all.

I don't think this is true. Some evolutionists may use evolution to support atheisism, but it doesn't make it correct. Science has no say about the supernatural, so in fact, they're making the same fallacy as IDers using science to support God.

In fact, if you pick any random thread about evolution/creationism, I bet the majority of evolutionists aren't mocking Christ, but they mock the belief in Creationism (6000 year old Earth, global flood, etc...), which are two completely different things. I don't remember very many (if any) atheists on the Evolution/Creation forum mock my beliefs at all. More likely, it'll be Creationists questioning my Christianity because I accept science.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

es, there are theistic evolutionists. But there are also many, many evolutionists who are atheists. These really are the one's I meant to adress.

If you randomly select a thread about creationism or ID, either on this forum or a different message board, you will find that many have used evolution as a tool to mock Christ, and any belief in him.

what i find fascinating is how atheistic materialists and YECists are mirror images of each other with respect to the metaphor of the two books of God.

YECists discount the book of Works, AM's discount the book of Words, YECists say that the universe is deceptive and AM's say that Scripture is full of errors.

since when does the most extreme position become the most authenticate? Neither group wishes to read both books together, with one modifying the interpretation of the other when necessary.

 

[Dannager]

But keep in mind, that people who don't believe in ID don't do so because of lack of facts. They do so because they are "at enmity with God".

I don't accept ID because of a lack of evidence. Furthermore, I am Christian and take offense at your assertion that I am "at enmity with God".