Israel Is A Nation Not A State

AbbaLove

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Israel declared its independence in 1948, and in 1949, the new state was admitted into the United Nations. So why does Israel continue to use terms like a “two State solution” and refer to itself as a “State” when it became a “Nation” in 1949. Would there be all this talk about a “two state solution” if International Law (America), Ben Gurion and subsequent Prime Ministers had pressed the point that Israel is a Nation, surrounded on both sides by Palestinian State(s). One explanation may be that Israel wants to resolve the conflict peacefully with its "Palestinian" neighbors and in so doing uses terms like "State" instead of "Nation" that helps to level the playing field for peaceful coexistence.


The facts of the June 1967 "Six Day War" demonstrate that Israel reacted defensively against the threat and use of force against her by her Arab neighbors. ... http://www.maurice-ostroff.org/test/id248.html

“Where the prior holder of territory [Jordan] had seized that territory unlawfully, the State which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense, has against that prior holder, better title.” Judge Stephen M Schwebel ~ What Weight To Conquest

Isaiah 66:8 NIV (every translation of Isaiah 66:8 refers to Israel as a nation)
Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 66:8
 
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AbbaLove

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uhmmm...State is just another word for Nation. :wave:

It was not until 2012, that the State of Palestine was granted a non-member observer state status by the United Nations. The reason the State of Palestine has not been granted UN member status is because it supports terrorism against Israel. The State of Palestine refuses to recognize Israel as a national entity and sovereign homeland for Jewish people. As a peace-loving nation among other Middle East nations Israel has the right to defensive measures to protect its citizens from any attacks by its neighbor nations as well as the State of Palestine.

On May 11, 1949, it was noted that in the judgment of the Security Council that "Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the United Nations Charter." The conclusion of Moshe Sharett's speech before the General Assembly of the United Nations on May 11, 1949, was recorded as follows …

Mr. Sharett recalled that on the most solemn day in the Jewish calendar his people prayed for the day when all the peoples of the earth would unite in one fraternity to seek the salvation of mankind, and that it was the prophets of Israel who had bequeathed to the world the vision of a time when "nation shall not lift up a sword against nation; neither shall they learn war any more."

Jeremiah 31:31-33 NKJV
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
 
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brinny

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Israel declared its independence in 1948, and in 1949, the new state was admitted into the United Nations. So why does Israel continue to use terms like a “two State solution” and refer to itself as a “State” when it became a “Nation” in 1949. Would there be all this talk about a “two state solution” if International Law (America), Ben Gurion and subsequent Prime Ministers had pressed the point that Israel is a Nation, surrounded on both sides by Palestinian State(s). One explanation may be that Israel wants to resolve the conflict peacefully with its "Palestinian" neighbors and in so doing uses terms like "State" instead of "Nation" that helps to level the playing field for peaceful coexistence.


The facts of the June 1967 "Six Day War" demonstrate that Israel reacted defensively against the threat and use of force against her by her Arab neighbors. ... http://www.maurice-ostroff.org/test/id248.html

“Where the prior holder of territory [Jordan] had seized that territory unlawfully, the State which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense, has against that prior holder, better title.” Judge Stephen M Schwebel ~ What Weight To Conquest

Isaiah 66:8 NIV (every translation of Isaiah 66:8 refers to Israel as a nation)
Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 66:8

Indeed Israel IS a nation.
 
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brinny

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It was not until 2012, that the State of Palestine was granted a non-member observer state status by the United Nations. The reason the State of Palestine has not been granted UN member status is because it supports terrorism against Israel. The State of Palestine refuses to recognize Israel as a national entity and sovereign homeland for Jewish people. As a peace-loving nation among other Middle East nations Israel has the right to defensive measures to protect its citizens from any attacks by its neighbor nations as well as the State of Palestine.

On May 11, 1949, it was noted that in the judgment of the Security Council that "Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the United Nations Charter." The conclusion of Moshe Sharett's speech before the General Assembly of the United Nations on May 11, 1949, was recorded as follows …


Jeremiah 31:31-33 NKJV
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I agree. The nation Israel has every right to defend herself.
 
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AbbaLove

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And Israel will ALWAYS be a nation, in God's sight, according to God's will.
JUSTICE IN INTERNATIONAL LAW
What Weight to Conquest?
http://www.maurice-ostroff.org/test/id248.html
The facts of the 1948 hostilities between the Arab invaders of Palestine and the nascent State of Israel further demonstrate that Egypt's seizure of the Gaza Strip, and Jordan's seizure and subsequent annexation of the West Bank and the old city of Jerusalem, were unlawful. Israel was proclaimed to be an independent State within the boundaries allotted to her by the General Assembly's partition resolution. The Arabs of Palestine and of neighboring Arab States rejected that resolution. But that rejection was no warrant for the invasion by those Arab States of Palestine, whether of territory allotted to Israel, to the projected, stillborn Arab State or to the projected, internationalized city of Jerusalem. It was no warrant for attack by the armed forces of neighboring Arab States upon the Jews of Palestine, whether they resided within or without Israel. But that attack did justify Israeli defensive measures, both within and, as necessary, without the boundaries allotted her by the partition plan (as in the new city of Jerusalem). It follows that the Egyptian occupation of Gaza, and the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank and Jerusalem, could not vest in Egypt and Jordan lawful, indefinite control, whether as occupying Power or sovereign: ex injuria jus non oritur.

If the foregoing conclusions that (a) Israeli action in 1967 was defensive and (b) Arab action in 1948, being aggressive, was inadequate to legalize Egyptian and Jordanian taking of Palestinian territory, are correct, what follows?

It follows that the application of the doctrine of according no weight to conquest requires modification in double measure. In the first place, having regard to the consideration that, as between Israel, acting defensively in 1948 and 1967, on the one hand, and her Arab neighbors, acting aggressively in 1948 and 1967, on the other, Israel has better title in the territory of what was Palestine, including the whole of Jerusalem, than do Jordan and Egypt (the UAR indeed has, unlike Jordan, not asserted sovereign title), it follows that modifications of the 1949 armistice lines among those States within former Palestinian territory are lawful (if not necessarily desirable), whether those modifications are, in Secretary Rogers's words, "insubstantial alterations required for mutual security" or more substantial alterations - such as recognition of Israeli sovereignty over the whole of Jerusalem. (8) In the second place, as regards territory bordering Palestine, and under unquestioned Arab sovereignty in 1949 and thereafter, such as Sinai and the Golan Heights, it follows not that no weight shall be given to conquest, but that such weight shall be given to defensive action as is reasonably required to ensure that such Arab territory will not again be used for aggressive purposes against Israel. For example - and this appears to be envisaged both by the Secretary of State's address and the resolution of the Security Council - free navigation through the Straits of Tiran shall be effectively guaranteed and demilitarized zones shall be established.​

The so-called "nascent State of Israel" was viewed by Ben Gurion in 1949, as a miracle from GOD. CBNs excellent series ~ The Hope: Rebirth of Israel is evidence that there are now millions of Jews, Messanics and Christians that see the born again rebirth of Israel as a growing fulfillment of Bible Prophecy and a blessing to mankind.

Genesis 12:3 NKJV
I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
 
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AbbaLove

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There is the Land of Israel, The State of Israel, The Nation of Israel, are they all synonymous or different entities?
:) also the Country of Israel :)
From a geopolitical world perspective Israel is a State. However, from a Biblical perspective Israel is a Nation (Isaiah 66:8).

The United States was the first country to recognize Israel as a state in 1948. Since then, Israel has become, and remains, America’s most reliable partner in the Middle East. Israel and the United States are bound closely by historic and cultural ties as well as by mutual interests.

Israel's founding was preceded by more than 50 years of efforts to establish a sovereign state as a homeland for the Jewish people. The1917 Balfour Declaration asserted the British Government's support for the creation “in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.” ... http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm

Whether a Christian or Jew "State" seems to be the preferred socially political choice (state vs nation). Whether a Zionist Christian or a Zionist Jew "Nation" seems to be the preferred perspective (Isaiah 66:8). However, the world by-and-large looks at such zeal as extremism. So to say that one or the other is "more realistic" depends on one's convictions. The majority of Jewish citizens in Israel, as well as Israel's Prime Minister, as well as Jews in America, as well as America's President and the majority of Christians in America see no problem with a: Two-State Solution ... "do we have an alternative?"

After watching that interview with Michael Oren it's easy to see why the so-called wisdom of the world sees a two-state "situation" solutuon (beginning with the West Bank) as the best chance/opportunity for some assemblance of peaceful coexistence and cooperation. As M Oren explains and other Israeli and American Jews agree ... "do we have an alternative?"

(1:08:00 - 1:11:50)

IS THERE ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVE?

 
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Ken Rank

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It was not until 2012, that the State of Palestine was granted a non-member observer state status by the United Nations. The reason the State of Palestine has not been granted UN member status is because it supports terrorism against Israel. The State of Palestine refuses to recognize Israel as a national entity and sovereign homeland for Jewish people. As a peace-loving nation among other Middle East nations Israel has the right to defensive measures to protect its citizens from any attacks by its neighbor nations as well as the State of Palestine.

On May 11, 1949, it was noted that in the judgment of the Security Council that "Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the United Nations Charter." The conclusion of Moshe Sharett's speech before the General Assembly of the United Nations on May 11, 1949, was recorded as follows …


Jeremiah 31:31-33 NKJV
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Tulc and ContraMundum were correct in saying that state and nation are interchangeable and that this is semantics. For example, Webster's defines "state" as "a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory." Is Israel a politically organized body or a theocracy? Obviously the former and the word "nation" is defined as "a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status." Technically, until Mashiach comes, it is a nation state, a secular nation state. And I might interject a thought... there will be no answers and no peace there until Mashiach comes.
 
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Ken Rank

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From a geopolitical world perspective Israel is a State. However, from a Biblical perspective Israel is a Nation (Isaiah 66:8).

Amen... which tells us something. While Israel the current nation state has many of God's people in it, and God has CLEARLY had His hand on them since 1948, it isn't the "nation" of Scripture. Israel is Israel by NAME, it is a SECULAR COUNTRY, not one ruled with Torah as it's constitution. One of our elders knows (well, knew) one of the men who was in the meetings leading up to May 14th, 1948 and when they ended the meetings and he went to bed, the decision was that the nation would be called Judea. Why? Because it was going to be filled with Jews, Jewdea. However, overnight there was a decision change to name this new state, "Israel" because it wanted to include the right NOT just for Jewish immigration, but also for the ingathering of the exiles. From the Declaration of the Establishment of Israel, we read this:

"THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles."

And I want to throw one last thing out, AbbaLove, the official name chosen by the Jews in 1948 was what is boldened below:

ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

They chose the word "state" so there is no issue here. :)

* Source - http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/declaration of establishment of state of israel.aspx
 
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Ken Rank

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Are not what they are saying it that a Jewish state will be in the nation of Israel?

Yes, in clearer words.... A Jewish state will exist in the land of Israel and will be called the State of Israel. My point in using their own charter was only to show that THEY (The Jews) used the word state both in relation to the Jewish people and the new name of the country they would call their own.

I do think it is interesting, however, that they used Israel over Judea so that it would be more encompassing because they knew there would, one day, be an in-gathering of the exiles.
 
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AbbaLove

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Are not what they are saying is that a Jewish state will be in the nation of Israel?
YES! A good way of explaining the unifying of Political Zionism with Cultural Zionism.

Ben Gurion knew that to the United Nations "state" was politically acceptable. Political Zionism and Cultural Zionism are realistic enough to know that the only true Peace Partner is Moshiach. From a political viewpoint Israel was birthed as a "State" on May 14, 1948. From a "fervent/strict" orthodox viewpoint Israel as a "Nation" will be birthed when the true Moshiach rules as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Isaiah 66:8

Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? ... Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?

A high level Diplomatic Communiqué to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel has been leaked, it reveals that the Messiah (Hebrew:Moshiach) has arrived, and that he will be taking his throne and establishing his reign beginning this year, and extending through next year (Hebrew Years 5775/5776).

What’s amazing is that a number of history’s most famous Rabbis, including the founder of Chabad, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, predicted that the Messiah would redeem Israel now. These rabbinical prophecies are confirmed by Gimatria and the Torah Code, which also reveal this as the time of the Messiah’s arrival.

 
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Dave-W

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From a geopolitical world perspective Israel is a State. However, from a Biblical perspective Israel is a Nation
I think you are making a distinction where there is none. State and Nation are synonyms. Unfortunately for us in the US, we think of a state as a province of a nation and not the nation itself. But in the 1700s and early 1800s the US was an amalgam of 13 separate colonies/nations that banded together to throw off England; and then grew from there. The Articles of Confederation did not have much of any central government. Our Name reflected that idea.

Today the EU could be looked at as a United States of Europe. Not one nation but a group of nations.
 
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AbbaLove

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I think you are making a distinction where there is none. State and Nation are synonyms. Unfortunately for us in the US, we think of a state as a province of a nation and not the nation itself.
You are right from a secular~political view that there is little, if any, distinction. The goal of the United Nations is to control it's member states (not Biblical). However, from a Biblical view Israel is a Nation. Of 68 translations there is not one that says 'state' instead of nation ... https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah 66:8

Fervent/strict Orthodox Israeli's do not participate in "state" related activities. Here are three more translations that prefer nation NOT state.

Yeshayah 66:8 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall Eretz be born in yom echad? Or shall a nation be born in a moment? For as soon as Tziyon travailed in labor, she gave birth to her banim.

Isaiah 66:8Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
8 Who ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Is a country born in one day?
Is a nation brought forth all at once?
For as soon as Tziyon went into labor,
she brought forth her children.
יְשַׁעְיָהוּ וו
ח מִי-שָׁמַע כָּזֹאת, מִי רָאָה כָּאֵלֶּה--הֲיוּחַל אֶרֶץ בְּיוֹם אֶחָד, אִם-יִוָּלֵד גּוֹי פַּעַם אֶחָת: כִּי-חָלָה גַּם-יָלְדָה צִיּוֹן, אֶת-בָּנֶיהָ.

ח מִי שָׁמַע כָּזֹאת מִי רָאָה כָּאֵלֶּה הֲיוּחַל אֶרֶץ בְּיוֹם אֶחָד אִם יִוָּלֵד גּוֹי פַּעַם אֶחָת כִּי חָלָה גַּם יָלְדָה צִיּוֹן אֶת בָּנֶיהָ

More than one Hebrew website translates גּוֹי "gentile" as shown above with the translation for "nation" being אומה .
Vatican City and the Principality of Monaco are 2 independent states(nations) and Monaco has a vote in the U.N.
Israel is a State/Nation.(PERIOD).
The United Nations perspective is secular (political) when referring to its member states, but this is NOT a fervent/strict Orthodox Israeli perspective or a Biblical perspective. The other problem with "state" is that it has more than one meaning. For example ... "How is the state of your health" or "How is the state of affairs in the State of Israel?"

It stands to reason that a fervent/strict Orthodox Israeli, as well as many fervent/strict Christains, interpret Isaiah 66:8 as referring to the land/country of Israel (nation) birthed in one day when Moshiach makes His presence manifest in Jerusalem to rule the nations of the earth and NOT the member states of the United Nations.

Romans 12:1-2 CJB
I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of God’s mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for God. This will please him; it is the logical “Temple worship” for you. In other words, do not let yourselves be conformed to the standards of the ‘olam hazeh.

Romans 12:1-2 AMP
I appeal to you therefore, brethren, and beg of you in view of [all] the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies [presenting all your members and faculties] as a living sacrifice, holy (devoted, consecrated) and well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable (rational, intelligent) service and spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God,even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

Most everyone looks at the fervent/strict Orthodox Israeli's today as too radical. The Pharisees that were corrupted by Roman secular political views went along with Israel being one of the "states" in the Roman Empire and perceived Yeshua as being too radical.
 
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