Israel as the chosen people

[RozeinBloom]

This issue was briefly addressed in another thread of mine but as I am like a little puppy and easily distracted when it comes to theological questions it seemed sensible to open a new discussion pertaining to this issue.

Clearly and indisputably Jesus did not just come for the Jews salvation but for all of humanity but within the Old Testament it seems equally indisputable that the Nation of Israel was God's chosen people to the exclusion of all other nations. So my question is I suppose, why was that necessary? What purpose did it serve for the rest of mankind? And why not charge the Israelites with bringing enlightenment to the other nations rather than strictly forbidding assimilation? I am positive that there are sensible answers to this question to be found within the bible but at the moment the answers are eluding me so any help would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

 

[drich0150]

This issue was briefly addressed in another thread of mine but as I am like a little puppy and easily distracted when it comes to theological questions it seemed sensible to open a new discussion pertaining to this issue.

Clearly and indisputably Jesus did not just come for the Jews salvation but for all of humanity

Actually this is very disputable in several verses. When the gentile woman came to Christ to be heal, He asked should the Children's food be given to the dogs?? Meaning why should what was meant for the Jews be given to the gentiles? The parable about the the in grafting of the wild shoot into the vine, the parable about the wedding feast and several others. all point to the true nature of the coming of Christ. It was to full fill the promised made to Israel. Unfortunately not all agreed. But you Got to remember a very large portion of the 1st century church were Jews. Christianity was known as messianic Judaism, but after the works of Paul were complete it was made clear one did not have to be a Jew first so those converts were simply known as Christian. Even Paul championed the Phrase "First to the Jew then to the Gentile" meaning the Gospel was for the Jew first.

but within the Old Testament it seems equally indisputable that the Nation of Israel was God's chosen people to the exclusion of all other nations. So my question is I suppose, why was that necessary? What purpose did it serve for the rest of mankind? And why not charge the Israelites with bringing enlightenment to the other nations rather than strictly forbidding assimilation? I am positive that there are sensible answers to this question to be found within the bible but at the moment the answers are eluding me so any help would be appreciated.

Look to the promises God made Abraham in Genesis. Everything that followed was due to the righteousness of Abraham

 

[Radagast]

... within the Old Testament it seems equally indisputable that the Nation of Israel was God's chosen people to the exclusion of all other nations.

Not quite. In the Old Testament, see, for example:

Genesis 18:18: "Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him."

Isaiah 49:6: "... I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Jonah 4:10-11: "But the LORD said, 'You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?'"

In the New Testament we have texts such as:

John 8:12: "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'"

 

[Faulty]

They were given the Law for this reason,
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
Ex 19:5-6

They were chosen among the peoples so God should use them to show Himself to the world and throuogh this people He would bring the Savior of all mankind, not because they actually did anything deserving of it, but as Deuteronomy 9:6 states, they are a "stiffnecked people".

 

[RozeinBloom]

Actually this is very disputable in several verses. When the gentile woman came to Christ to be heal, He asked should the Children's food be given to the dogs?? Meaning why should what was meant for the Jews be given to the gentiles? The parable about the the in grafting of the wild shoot into the vine, the parable about the wedding feast and several others. all point to the true nature of the coming of Christ. It was to full fill the promised made to Israel. Unfortunately not all agreed. But you Got to remember a very large portion of the 1st century church were Jews. Christianity was known as messianic Judaism, but after the works of Paul were complete it was made clear one did not have to be a Jew first so those converts were simply known as Christian. Even Paul championed the Phrase "First to the Jew then to the Gentile" meaning the Gospel was for the Jew first.


Look to the promises God made Abraham in Genesis. Everything that followed was due to the righteousness of Abraham

Thanks drich that's a very helpful post. I suppose it is always very important to remember the context of the times that the Bible was written in.

 

[RozeinBloom]

Not quite. In the Old Testament, see, for example:

Genesis 18:18: "Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him."

Isaiah 49:6: "... I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Jonah 4:10-11: "But the LORD said, 'You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?'"

Sorry you're right Radagast I should have qualified my language slightly as obviously there are passages that point to the inclusion of the gentiles, particularly in Isaiah when he talks of the coming of the Messiah. However, while I happen to agree with you with regards to the New Testament, I also feel that there are a number of other passages that are worthy of attention when considering this issue.

Firstly obviously I think anyone would be hard pressed to form a convincing argument that the Israelites were not God’s chosen people, for whatever purpose they were/are to serve. The first covenant between Abraham and God was to be signified through circumcision. From this perspective one passage from Ezekiel (31:18) that I found interesting is ‘yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword.’ Here it seems to quite definitely suggest that the uncircumcised are headed to hell. If anyone can offer an alternative interpretation however I’d be very open to hearing it.

Another passage that seemed to suggest to me the deliberate exclusion of other nations is this: Nehemiah 13:1-2: The Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God forever because they met not the children of Israel with bread and water but hired Balaam against them that he should curse them. Perhaps there is a genuine call for judgement against the original offenders but to keep them out forever?
Also in Isaiah 48:11 when Israel is being chastised for their sins but reassured about their future it says: For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it for how should my name be polluted? And I will not give my glory away unto another. Perhaps it is just the translation but it sounds to me that the idea of bestowing his glory on another nation is not something that God considers appropriate.

Deuteronomy 20:15-18: Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
Now obviously the there is a clear argument here for saying that God needed to destroy these nations in order to make sure that His people weren’t contaminated with their spiritual practices. However this act seems incongruous with a divinity who not only loves all his creations but want them to embrace him as the one true God. Given these nations have most likely never heard of the God of the Israelites what opportunity are they given to repent for their sins? This seems to me to be an example of God working exclusively for the Israelites rather than for the good of all mankind. In fact in Joshua 23:3 it says ‘And ye have seen all that the LORD your God hath done unto all these nations because of you; for the LORD your God is he that hath fought for you,’ again suggesting that the annihilation of the nations was for the sole purpose of Israel. Now I’m sure that you could argue that ultimately for the benefit for mankind but, going back to my original question, I’m still not sure what the purpose was so everyone please feel free to elaborate.

 

[RozeinBloom]

They were chosen among the peoples so God should use them to show Himself to the world and throuogh this people He would bring the Savior of all mankind, not because they actually did anything deserving of it, but as Deuteronomy 9:6 states, they are a "stiffnecked people".

I think what I find most interesting about this issue is the fact that not only did they do little to deserve it but they rebelled and rejected God and went chasing after the Canaanite gods every chance they got. I wouldn't have thought that such a fickle people were terribly good PR for the Almighty.

Also why the Israelites so strictly forbidden from assimilating with the other nations? Surely God would have wanted them to spread his word much like Jesus did in the Gospels.
Joshua 23:12-14: Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
This passage seems to me to be strong evidence that God wanted to them to keep away from the other nations rather than influence them.

Judges 2:21-22: I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
This passage doesn't make any mention of wanting to be known by the heathens but rather that he would use them as instruments of punishment if and when Israel strayed from the path of righteousness. Again this to me is just further evidence of Gods preoccupation with the Israelites to the exclusion of any other nation, save for providing him with pawns with which to enact his vengeance.

Also although Israel held an impressive kingdom under David and Solomon, it was just a blip in a millennia and region that lay host to many impressive empires and kingships, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Assyrians, the Lydians and many others. So I suppose a further question is what was it about the story and history of the Israelites that was supposed to impress upon the rest of the world the greatness of their God?

 

[Radagast]

Sorry you're right Radagast I should have qualified my language slightly as obviously there are passages that point to the inclusion of the gentiles, particularly in Isaiah when he talks of the coming of the Messiah. However, while I happen to agree with you with regards to the New Testament, I also feel that there are a number of other passages that are worthy of attention when considering this issue.

I would say that the solution to the dilemma is that God's special choice of the Jewish people was a means to an end: the eventual salvation of the world. Isaiah indicates this in several places, such as:

Isaiah 56:6-7: "And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant — these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Jesus quotes from this passage in Matthew 21:13.

 

[RozeinBloom]

I'm sure you're right but I just wondered why passages such as I outlined above would be included in the bible as it seems to leave itself open to contradiction. Anyway thanks for your help its much appreciated!

 

[elman]

This issue was briefly addressed in another thread of mine but as I am like a little puppy and easily distracted when it comes to theological questions it seemed sensible to open a new discussion pertaining to this issue.

Clearly and indisputably Jesus did not just come for the Jews salvation but for all of humanity but within the Old Testament it seems equally indisputable that the Nation of Israel was God's chosen people to the exclusion of all other nations. So my question is I suppose, why was that necessary? What purpose did it serve for the rest of mankind? And why not charge the Israelites with bringing enlightenment to the other nations rather than strictly forbidding assimilation? I am positive that there are sensible answers to this question to be found within the bible but at the moment the answers are eluding me so any help would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

It is not indisputible that Israel was God's chosen people to exlusion of all other people. The story of Jonah is about the conversion of Niniva--not an Isarel nation. The King of Salem was not a Jew. Balaam obviosly had a realtionship with God and he was not a Jew.

 

[RozeinBloom]

No I agree and once again perhaps I should have phrased it more carefully as clearly these are excellent examples refuting that statement. However if anyone can I'd really like a more detailed explanation for the passages I quoted earlier which support the idea of other nations being excluded for the sake of Israel. I can see the argument for how God was using the Jews to bring about the Messiah and so others might know him but if anyone is able to give a more thorough explanation for these seeming contradictions I think I'd be able to accept the premise a lot more easily. Thanks!

 

[GrayAngel]

It is not indisputible that Israel was God's chosen people to exlusion of all other people. The story of Jonah is about the conversion of Niniva--not an Isarel nation. The King of Salem was not a Jew. Balaam obviosly had a realtionship with God and he was not a Jew.

Don't forget Rahab, the prostitute of Jericho who saved the Hebrew spies and joined the Jews after the destruction of the city. She's even one of the few women mentioned in Jesus' genealogy.

No I agree and once again perhaps I should have phrased it more carefully as clearly these are excellent examples refuting that statement. However if anyone can I'd really like a more detailed explanation for the passages I quoted earlier which support the idea of other nations being excluded for the sake of Israel. I can see the argument for how God was using the Jews to bring about the Messiah and so others might know him but if anyone is able to give a more thorough explanation for these seeming contradictions I think I'd be able to accept the premise a lot more easily. Thanks!

Israel were formerly the only nation holding access to the God of salvation. However, salvation was never meant to be only for the Jews, as many of the previously mentioned examples show. Jesus would come from the line of Abraham, the father of the Jews, to offer salvation to the world.

The Jews were forbidden to marry with outsiders because they would bring their foreign gods into their land, cursing the next generations with their pagan beliefs. An exception to the rule was when the Jewish men would marry the virgin women from the nations the destroyed, as these women could easily be assimilated into their culture (back when the men were the head of the home).

They were supposed to remain mostly secluded for the sake of their own salvation. The people had a habit of integrating the foreign gods into their own culture, and God didn't want that to happen for Israel. It happened anyway, though, because of the strategic position God had put them in. If you look at Israel on the map, you'd see that they were placed right in the middle of the known world. Many people had to pass them by to get to where they were going. This would make it easy for the gospel to spread through the city after Jesus would set up the church. It wasn't until this time that Israel was capable of being a light to the gentiles.

 

[elman]

=GrayAngel;60085372]Don't forget Rahab, the prostitute of Jericho who saved the Hebrew spies and joined the Jews after the destruction of the city. She's even one of the few women mentioned in Jesus' genealogy.

And Ruth who was not Jewish.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Salvation is of the Jews as Jesus said, but who is a Jew according to scripture.

Romans 2:28-29

King James Version (KJV)


28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gods chosen people are not carnal, but spiritual. Just as it is also written not all Israel are of Israel.

 

[razeontherock]

Blind post, just wanting to make sure a few bases are covered:

Messiah was to come from Israel.
The Law was to preserve Israel, not only alive, but as a distinct people.
It is quite possible to read the Gospel as Jesus only coming for the Jews. This is how the earliest Church saw it, and it was no small upset to them to come to terms with the fact that God was also pouring His Spirit out on Gentile believers. You might say, it is this phenomenon that put Paul on the map.

Now what matters, is the NT concept of "Israel." These are tricky waters to navigate, and replacement theology is to be avoided IMHO, since God has not cast off His chosen people Israel.

 

[food4thought]

I think what I find most interesting about this issue is the fact that not only did they do little to deserve it but they rebelled and rejected God and went chasing after the Canaanite gods every chance they got. I wouldn't have thought that such a fickle people were terribly good PR for the Almighty.

The conduct if Israel was not very good PR for God, true... but God keeping His promises to Israel by judging them for their sins and then bringing them back into their land WAS good PR. God's faithfulness and mercy despite mans unfaithfulness is one of the primary themes of the Bible.

Also why the Israelites so strictly forbidden from assimilating with the other nations? Surely God would have wanted them to spread his word much like Jesus did in the Gospels.
Joshua 23:12-14: Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
This passage seems to me to be strong evidence that God wanted to them to keep away from the other nations rather than influence them.

As others have pointed out, God did want the Israelites to be "a light to the gentiles"; but God is holy, and He demanded that His representatives be holy (seperate and set apart from the world, completely dedicated to the LORD). They were to be a distinct people with a distinctly different culture and God, because God detested the religious practices that permeated the culture of those gentile nations.

Judges 2:21-22: I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
This passage doesn't make any mention of wanting to be known by the heathens but rather that he would use them as instruments of punishment if and when Israel strayed from the path of righteousness. Again this to me is just further evidence of Gods preoccupation with the Israelites to the exclusion of any other nation, save for providing him with pawns with which to enact his vengeance.

True. God was preoccupied with Israel almost exclusively because it was Israel that He had chosen for Abraham's sake to be His representatives on the earth, and to bring forth the Messiah. Remember that these surrounding nations had become so wicked that God had ordered them wiped of the face of the earth during the time of the Exodus and Joshua, but because Israel had already begun to depart from the LORD's commands, God allowed them to remain as judgment upon Israel.

Also although Israel held an impressive kingdom under David and Solomon, it was just a blip in a millennia and region that lay host to many impressive empires and kingships, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Assyrians, the Lydians and many others. So I suppose a further question is what was it about the story and history of the Israelites that was supposed to impress upon the rest of the world the greatness of their God?

As someone else pointed out, Israel was strategicly located at the center of the trade routes and was well positioned to be a witness to the peoples who traveled through her. For the last sentence, see my opening paragraph.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Blind post, just wanting to make sure a few bases are covered:

Messiah was to come from Israel.
The Law was to preserve Israel, not only alive, but as a distinct people.
It is quite possible to read the Gospel as Jesus only coming for the Jews. This is how the earliest Church saw it, and it was no small upset to them to come to terms with the fact that God was also pouring His Spirit out on Gentile believers. You might say, it is this phenomenon that put Paul on the map.

Now what matters, is the NT concept of "Israel." These are tricky waters to navigate, and replacement theology is to be avoided IMHO, since God has not cast off His chosen people Israel.

I think the tricky part to navigate for most is to rightly divide the fleshy parts from the spiritual parts. Just as Messiah came down from above, and was not born from below; and just as Gods chosen people have always been a spiritual people, not a carnal. This is not replacement theology, this is the Truth from the beginning.

In the beginning there were only 2 seeds, one which was carnal (serpents seed) and one was which spiritual (womans seed). Just as those who were born of Abraham's seed were to be born of that seed of promise (which is spiritual). The seed of promise, is the Promise of the Father which is breathed into all the sons of God, just as Jesus breathed Himself(Spirit of Life) upon his disciples after his resurrection.

Many of the flesh and blood Jews thought they were the chosen people of God by birth right according to the flesh, but both John the Baptist and Jesus told them other wise.

The flesh profits nothing, it is the Spirit that gives Life.

 

[RozeinBloom]

Thanks for all your responses guys and for helping to make a niggling issue somewhat clearer!