Isn't Free Will Arbitrary?

[appleofhiseye]

I don't know much about this, but i just want to say, that knowing God wants all to come to repentance and salvation, our will must be why
not all do.
IOW If God was in total and complete control of everyone, He would have His total way and all peoples would be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - God is the cause of His own "lament".

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism there is a big answer to the question God asks in Is 5:4 - the Calvinist answer is --- "you could have done the necessary as with all the cases where you cause someone to be saved and to remain faithful".

 

[BobRyan]

I don't know much about this, but i just want to say, that knowing God wants all to come to repentance and salvation, our will must be why
not all do.
IOW If God was in total and complete control of everyone, He would have His total way and all peoples would be saved.

True - but that does not mean God did not "choose" the system the way it is. He could always have gone for the "I-Robot" option instead.

 

[appleofhiseye]

I think He already did create many creatures that merely act on instinct. Humankind are special creations with the ability to choose.

 

[grasping the after wind]

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4
"we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2Cor 5
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK - IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3

Looks like a choice.

Yes a choice about rejecting God. Which is exactly what I said. If you want to agree with me, I will accept that these verses are proof of my point that we have the ability to reject God. If you want to disagree with me and contend we have the ability to choose salvation then you must find verses that make the point that someone has the ability to make a choice that saves them not to make a choice to reject the God who does the saving.

 

[grasping the after wind]

And when the person chooses to respond to the "Drawing" what then?

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

(Not - "is already saved" before doing that)

And not "You will have saved yourself." Again, God does the saving and you cannot choose to be saved you can choose to reject God or not reject him that is it.

 

[BobRyan]

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4
"we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2Cor 5
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK - IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3

Looks like a choice.

These texts do not talk about God "not acting" but they show that choice is required instead of the simple "mind-zap" model.

And they show that when God does act - not all even then will choose the Gospel.

By contrast... in the mind-zap model the robot always does as it is zapped to do. Thus if the robot maker says "what more could I have done that I have not done"... well that scenario "cannot exist" in the mind-zap model.

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - God is the cause of His own "lament".

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism there is a big answer to the question God asks in Is 5:4 - the Calvinist answer is --- "you could have done the necessary as with all the cases where you cause someone to be saved and to remain faithful"

And when the person chooses to respond to the "Drawing" what then?

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

(Not - "is already saved" before doing that)

vs 8 shows God at work and still choice is needed, action of man taken "resulting in salvation"

===============================

Each time this is pointed out that response is "yes but man is not doing all of that in a vacuum in the complete absence of God" -- but that is a "given" for "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me" John 12:32 is God acting not man acting by himself.

 

[Rick Otto]

A lot of people feel that about guns.

You seem to feel that way about unmanned drones from your statement.

I prefer to blame the one "behind them" who "had the choice" and manipulates the whole arrangement. Apparently the court system agrees with me.

No guns or drones "go to jail".

in Christ,

Bob

Robots show no remorse.
They possess neither thought nor emotion.
But more specifically related to notions of autonomy, they have no conscience.

And the argument is self contradicting in its essence.
How can a will that is "engineered" by God, be free of "programming"?
Essentially,... how can freedom be programmed?

 

[Rick Otto]

These texts do not talk about God "not acting" but they show that choice is required instead of the simple "mind-zap" model.

And they show that when God does act - not all even then will choose the Gospel.

By contrast... in the mind-zap model the robot always does as it is zapped to do. Thus if the robot maker says "what more could I have done that I have not done"... well that scenario "cannot exist" in the mind-zap model.

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - God is the cause of His own "lament".

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism there is a big answer to the question God asks in Is 5:4 - the Calvinist answer is --- "you could have done the necessary as with all the cases where you cause someone to be saved and to remain faithful"

And when the person chooses to respond to the "Drawing" what then?

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

(Not - "is already saved" before doing that)

vs 8 shows God at work and still choice is needed, action of man taken "resulting in salvation"

===============================

Each time this is pointed out that response is "yes but man is not doing all of that in a vacuum in the complete absence of God" -- but that is a "given" for "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me" John 12:32 is God acting not man acting by himself.

My reply is that we obviously do not involve the intellect in making a choice to believe, faith is a heart function.
The heart is not subject to the intellect.

 

[Albion]

None says that God is zapping one person to make that choice but not another.

Yes, Bob, the Bible does indeed speak--in several places--of predestination, election, choosing his people, etc. And in even more verses, we are taught about his part in making Faith possible, whether or not election is occurring.

 

[bling]

I appreciate your time and response, but I think you're missing the point entirely.

Why does one person "wimp out" while another is strong? Why does one person choose God while the other does not? You're suggesting ALL "mature adults" CAN do one thing or another, but you're not explaining why some do and some do not. This is why I asked if free will is arbitrary, because if all people really can freely choose one path or another, then it's all just an arbitrary choice based on nothing. If it is based on something, that something, whether it be personal qualities or something else, is determined by God, right?

Again it is not that one person is choosing God and the other person is rejecting God.

Every mature adult has been given by God this very limited autonomy (sovereignty) that allows them to be a man and hang in there to the end fighting God off or give up the fight (wimp out) surrender to their enemy and thus allow God to shower them with unbelievable gifts.

It is not some “random” decision like a flip of a coin, but it is man’s truly free will sovereign choice, he can be held accountable for making.

The choice is based on the individual’s God given very little sovereign ability to choose for themselves, which means it is not something God designed in them. God has designed and provided everything else, so that was determined by God, but this one choice is man’s.

 

[jinc1019]

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - God is the cause of His own "lament".

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism there is a big answer to the question God asks in Is 5:4 - the Calvinist answer is --- "you could have done the necessary as with all the cases where you cause someone to be saved and to remain faithful".

You keep referencing "Calvinism" without actually addressing my point.

 

[jinc1019]

Robots show no remorse.
They possess neither thought nor emotion.
But more specifically related to notions of autonomy, they have no conscience.

And the argument is self contradicting in its essence.
How can a will that is "engineered" by God, be free of "programming"?
Essentially,... how can freedom be programmed?

How can people make truly "free" choices based on NOTHING at all without salvation becoming an arbitrary flip of the coin choice?

 

[jinc1019]

Again it is not that one person is choosing God and the other person is rejecting God.

Every mature adult has been given by God this very limited autonomy (sovereignty) that allows them to be a man and hang in there to the end fighting God off or give up the fight (wimp out) surrender to their enemy and thus allow God to shower them with unbelievable gifts.

It is not some “random” decision like a flip of a coin, but it is man’s truly free will sovereign choice, he can be held accountable for making.

The choice is based on the individual’s God given very little sovereign ability to choose for themselves, which means it is not something God designed in them. God has designed and provided everything else, so that was determined by God, but this one choice is man’s.

If you're right, then explain to me why one person chooses Christ and another does not, assuming both have heard the Gospel? Why does this happen?

 

[Albion]

Again it is not that one person is choosing God and the other person is rejecting God.

Every mature adult has been given by God this very limited autonomy (sovereignty) that allows them to be a man and hang in there to the end fighting God off or give up the fight (wimp out) surrender to their enemy and thus allow God to shower them with unbelievable gifts.

It is not some “random” decision like a flip of a coin, but it is man’s truly free will sovereign choice, he can be held accountable for making.

The choice is based on the individual’s God given very little sovereign ability to choose for themselves, which means it is not something God designed in them. God has designed and provided everything else, so that was determined by God, but this one choice is man’s.

All of that is nothing more than the way you've decided to think of it. What is logical, Biblical, incontestable, etc. is simply absent from that post.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Why does one person have preferences that oppose faith while another doesn't? Why does one person choose to view reality that way, when another person does the opposite? Thus far, no one is actually addressing the real issue here.

Hey jinc!

Why are some people better choosers ?

What allows some people to choose correctly in eternal matters ?

Potter...clay? Why have you made me thus ? What makes man to differ ?


Good questions. Which way are you leaning ?

 

[bling]

If you're right, then explain to me why one person chooses Christ and another does not, assuming both have heard the Gospel? Why does this happen?

You could have a 100 prodigal son types who all go through the exact same experience winding up in a pigsty starving and yet they are brought to their senses by it all:

Some will choose of the own free will to wimp out, go home and trust in undeserved merciful Father, while others will say to themselves “I am only getting what I deserve, you have to pay the piper, I do not want to burden my old father any more, I do not want to give my older brother a reason to gloat over me, it is all to humbling to return, and I do not like to be loved in spite of who I am, but I want to be loved for the way I want others to perceive me.

If there was some “reason” other than the individual themselves than everyone would be given that right reason and they would humbly return to the father, but it would not be their free will choice but the reason provided. God is wanting us to make the free will choice of accepting His Love without placing a gun to our head (that would void the choice).

 

[bottomofsandal]

You could have a 100 prodigal son types who all go through the exact same experience winding up in a pigsty starving and yet they are brought to their senses by it all:

Some will choose of the own free will to wimp out, go home and trust in undeserved merciful Father, while others will say to themselves “I am only getting what I deserve, you have to pay the piper, I do not want to burden my old father any more, I do not want to give my older brother a reason to gloat over me, it is all to humbling to return, and I do not like to be loved in spite of who I am, but I want to be loved for the way I want others to perceive me.

If there was some “reason” other than the individual themselves than everyone would be given that right reason and they would humbly return to the father, but it would not be their free will choice but the reason provided. God is wanting us to make the free will choice of accepting His Love without placing a gun to our head (that would void the choice).

Hi bling,


I understand your pov and agree to a point.

We need to be cautious that "free will" does not overshadow mercy and grace.

Free will is not the main thing. This makes salvation man-centered, not God-centered.

We have to ask did Jesus die so that we could exercise free will ?



Jinc asks a question no one has satisfactorily answered up to this point.

 

[jinc1019]

Hey jinc!

Why are some people better choosers ?

What allows some people to choose correctly in eternal matters ?

Potter...clay? Why have you made me thus ? What makes man to differ ?


Good questions. Which way are you leaning ?

Thanks for asking! Having done a lot of praying, thinking, researching on this question, my conclusion is this: Logically, God in some way has predestined everything that occurs, which doesn't mean he necessarily "likes" every outcome, but it is the outcome God has chosen.

Biblically, there are some really big and important questions. The various passages that indicate God wants to save all men, the passages that say God is upset when humans disobey him, etc. are all very convincing. However, the Book of Romans, especially when Paul speaks about Esau and Jacob, is very convincing on the side of the Calvinist. In short, the Bible seems to present conflicting messages.

Historically, and this is something I have been looking into a lot more recently, the earliest church fathers (prior to the Council of Nicea in 325 AD) definitely supported an interpretation that would be thought of today as "Arminian." Not every father spoke about these topics; many did not. But when they did, they often spoke definitively against what is thought of today as Calvinism. The belief was that although God was in control of the whole universe in one sense, man absolutely had free will to choose.

This is, of course, until you get to Augustine, who taught basically what John Calvin did later on regarding this subject (not all subjects). Many others at the time and after Augustine echoed those beliefs.

So, to be perfectly honest, I'm a bit torn. I hold to sola scriptura, so the scriptures are my highest authority, but I believe that the scriptures are not entirely clear on this. Generally speaking, in these sorts of situations, I would go to the church fathers, and they seem clearly to reject Calvin's view of predestination (as well as Luther's and Ambrose's and Augustine's). However, logic tells me Calvin's view on this subject is basically right, and I'm not sure how to get around those problems presented above and elsewhere.

 

[jinc1019]

You could have a 100 prodigal son types who all go through the exact same experience winding up in a pigsty starving and yet they are brought to their senses by it all:

Some will choose of the own free will to wimp out, go home and trust in undeserved merciful Father, while others will say to themselves “I am only getting what I deserve, you have to pay the piper, I do not want to burden my old father any more, I do not want to give my older brother a reason to gloat over me, it is all to humbling to return, and I do not like to be loved in spite of who I am, but I want to be loved for the way I want others to perceive me.

If there was some “reason” other than the individual themselves than everyone would be given that right reason and they would humbly return to the father, but it would not be their free will choice but the reason provided. God is wanting us to make the free will choice of accepting His Love without placing a gun to our head (that would void the choice).

Nowhere do you ever explain why one person WANTS to choose God or WANTS to come to faith. You keep repeating that it's all according to free will. Fine! Let's say it is. You still haven't answered the question. If two people, with absolute free will, hear the Gospel and come from the same household and everything, why is it one chooses faith and the other doesn't? Because one "wants" to and one does not? Ok, why? You still haven't answered the primary question here and neither has anyone else. You can say people, for whatever reason (greed, lust, power, stubbornness) want to stay in sin, but you can't tell me WHY one person values greed, lust, power, etc. over the person who forsakes it all for faith. And that's what the whole issue comes down to. WHY do some do that, even while others do not?