Isn't Free Will Arbitrary?

[jinc1019]

I believe great arguments can be made by both Calvinists and Arminians from the Bible, and having read the earliest church fathers, I agree with Arminians that the early church did tend to focus on free will (although I'm not sure they ever did address WHY a person ultimately makes the free will choice.)

One of the great flaws I see in free will, however, is that it ultimately boils down to an arbitrary choice. If all people can choose, by God's grace, to reject or accept Him in faith, then why does one person have faith while the other does not? If it's because of some positive quality in the one who chose faith, or some circumstance in life, or really anything at all, then couldn't it easily be said that God is in fact ultimately behind the decision? In other words, if there is a reason one person chooses and another doesn't, then isn't that reason also ultimately foreseen and foreknown at the time of creation? If God knew this particular external force would keep people from faith, why did God create a universe with that external force within it?

I just don't see how a person can honestly escape God's sovereignty in all things at the end of the day.

 

[Albion]

I believe great arguments can be made by both Calvinists and Arminians from the Bible, and having read the earliest church fathers, I agree with Arminians that the early church did tend to focus on free will (although I'm not sure they ever did address WHY a person ultimately makes the free will choice.)

One of the great flaws I see in free will, however, is that it ultimately boils down to an arbitrary choice. If all people can choose, by God's grace, to reject or accept Him in faith, then why does one person have faith while the other does not? If it's because of some positive quality in the one who chose faith, or some circumstance in life, or really anything at all, then couldn't it easily be said that God is in fact ultimately behind the decision? .

Very similar to my thinking. Free will sounds great and seems the right way...until you look closer at what it implies. Then, you see that it has to mean that God controls the outcome anyway.

 

[jinc1019]

Very similar to my thinking. Free will sounds great and seems the right way...until you look closer at what it implies. Then, you see that it has to mean that God controls the outcome anyway.

While I'm totally open to hearing how some of the world's truly brilliant Arminians deal with this problem, I've never been able to find anything that gives something even close to a satisfactory answer. Most, as far as I can tell, don't even spend much time talking about it.

 

[bling]

I believe great arguments can be made by both Calvinists and Arminians from the Bible, and having read the earliest church fathers, I agree with Arminians that the early church did tend to focus on free will (although I'm not sure they ever did address WHY a person ultimately makes the free will choice.)

One of the great flaws I see in free will, however, is that it ultimately boils down to an arbitrary choice. If all people can choose, by God's grace, to reject or accept Him in faith, then why does one person have faith while the other does not?

That is not the free will choice being made. All mature adults have faith in something or someone and the free will to direct that faith toward a benevolent Creator to seek His help (charity).

All mature adults have done stuff that hurts others (sin) and at least for a while these past sins burden their conscience. They may try many different means to relief this burden but none work for any length of time.

All mature adults can make the choice to give up on self, surrender, wimp out and swallow their pride (it is only a false pride anyway). They can freely choose to humbly accept God’s help (Love/charity/mercy/grace/forgiveness), which is a humbling activity.

The free will choice is between: being macho, continuing to be a good soldier and fight your enemy (God) to your death or wimp out, give up the fight, and surrender to your enemy (God) fully expecting to be punished severely for your war crimes, but instead just be humbly accepting of God’s gifts.

 

[jinc1019]

That is not the free will choice being made. All mature adults have faith in something or someone and the free will to direct that faith toward a benevolent Creator to seek His help (charity).

All mature adults have done stuff that hurts others (sin) and at least for a while these past sins burden their conscience. They may try many different means to relief this burden but none work for any length of time.

All mature adults can make the choice to give up on self, surrender, wimp out and swallow their pride (it is only a false pride anyway). They can freely choose to humbly accept God’s help (Love/charity/mercy/grace/forgiveness), which is a humbling activity.

The free will choice is between: being macho, continuing to be a good soldier and fight your enemy (God) to your death or wimp out, give up the fight, and surrender to your enemy (God) fully expecting to be punished severely for your war crimes, but instead just be humbly accepting of God’s gifts.

I appreciate your time and response, but I think you're missing the point entirely.

Why does one person "wimp out" while another is strong? Why does one person choose God while the other does not? You're suggesting ALL "mature adults" CAN do one thing or another, but you're not explaining why some do and some do not. This is why I asked if free will is arbitrary, because if all people really can freely choose one path or another, then it's all just an arbitrary choice based on nothing. If it is based on something, that something, whether it be personal qualities or something else, is determined by God, right?

 

[Tangible]

Perhaps you should investigate a third option besides Arminianism and Calvinism: Lutheranism, in which we do not use one verse of scripture to cancel out another, but hold up the whole word of God in harmony. We do not attempt to fill in the gaps where God has chosen not to speak, and when a seeming paradox might appear we simply continue to confess what Scripture proclaims, despite our ability to fully understand it.

The very short version of Lutheran soteriology is that if anyone is saved it is totally the work of God, and if anyone is damned it is totally their own doing.

 

[jinc1019]

Perhaps you should investigate a third option besides Arminianism and Calvinism: Lutheranism, in which we do not use one verse of scripture to cancel out another, but hold up the whole word of God in harmony. We do not attempt to fill in the gaps where God has chosen not to speak, and when a seeming paradox might appear we simply continue to confess what Scripture proclaims, despite our ability to fully understand it.

The very short version of Lutheran soteriology is that if anyone is saved it is totally the work of God, and if anyone is damned it is totally their own doing.

Thanks for the reply! I actually am well acquainted with Lutheran theology and know much about the Lutheran view on predestination. This question, however, isn't really about Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Lutheranism, but really about monergism (in some form) vs. synergism. Lutherans are, of course, monergists so they would have no problem with what I said above. Luther and Calvin basically share the same view on man's free will.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe great arguments can be made by both Calvinists and Arminians from the Bible, and having read the earliest church fathers, I agree with Arminians that the early church did tend to focus on free will (although I'm not sure they ever did address WHY a person ultimately makes the free will choice.)

One of the great flaws I see in free will, however, is that it ultimately boils down to an arbitrary choice. If all people can choose, by God's grace, to reject or accept Him in faith, then why does one person have faith while the other does not? If it's because of some positive quality in the one who chose faith, or some circumstance in life, or really anything at all, then couldn't it easily be said that God is in fact ultimately behind the decision? In other words, if there is a reason one person chooses and another doesn't, then isn't that reason also ultimately foreseen and foreknown at the time of creation? If God knew this particular external force would keep people from faith, why did God create a universe with that external force within it?

I just don't see how a person can honestly escape God's sovereignty in all things at the end of the day.

Was Lucifer "pre-programmed by God to sin"? Was Adam? - Eve? ... Cain? if so then why did not Able sin? was he "preprogrammed" by DNA, by environment? by ?? -- if we are all only doing whatever we are "programmed to do" then it is either DNA or genetic, or epigenome or environment...

Maybe the problem is that the God who can created sentient life from scratch knows how to make free will beings - and we who can only create computers from scratch - don't.

You can't put a large square peg in a small round hole.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I find the whole idea of free will and pre-destination are polluted by the philosophies of their day and that neo greek stuff from the renaissance. But what does the bible say about freedom?

 

[Norah63]

the reason for free will is just that. God loves us so much he gives us free will
Respons-ability is our freedom in this life. choose ye this day whom you will serve.
crucify the flesh with the lust thereof, dont be a servant to sin. allow Christ Jesus to be your salvation.

 

[Albion]

Was Lucifer "pre-programmed by God to sin"? Was Adam? - Eve? ... Cain? if so then why did not Able sin? was he "preprogrammed" by DNA, by environment? by ?? -- if we are all only doing whatever we are "programmed to do" then it is either DNA or genetic, or epigenome or environment...

Maybe the problem is that the God who can created sentient life from scratch knows how to make free will beings - and we who can only create computers from scratch - don't.

You can't put a large square peg in a small round hole.

in Christ,

Bob

Although you've put a lot of emphasis upon "pre-programmed" and "programmed" I can't find either one of them in any of the preceding posts--and certainly not in the one you quoted there.

 

[Albion]

the reason for free will is just that. God loves us so much he gives us free will
Respons-ability is our freedom in this life. choose ye this day whom you will serve.
crucify the flesh with the lust thereof, dont be a servant to sin. allow Christ Jesus to be your salvation.

Yes, we adhere to Free Will (if we do) because it sounds reasonable to us as analytical beings, but of course that is not the way we decide God's truth. There would have been no need for divine revelation at all if God had expected us just to arrive at the truth by going with either logic or our preferences.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Was Lucifer "pre-programmed by God to sin"? Was Adam? - Eve? ... Cain? if so then why did not Able sin? was he "preprogrammed" by DNA, by environment? by ?? -- if we are all only doing whatever we are "programmed to do" then it is either DNA or genetic, or epigenome or environment...

Maybe the problem is that the God who can created sentient life from scratch knows how to make free will beings - and we who can only create computers from scratch - don't.

You can't put a large square peg in a small round hole.

in Christ,

Bob

Where did you get the idea that Abel did not sin? He was human, he sinned just like the rest of us.

 

[BobRyan]

Where did you get the idea that Abel did not sin? He was human, he sinned just like the rest of us.

He sinned - but he did not rebel. His offering for sin was as God specified.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we adhere to Free Will (if we do) because it sounds reasonable to us as analytical beings, but of course that is not the way we decide God's truth. There would have been no need for divine revelation at all if God had expected us just to arrive at the truth by going with either logic or our preferences.

Free will is specified in God's Word - He did not need to select that model - and had He not - there could be no sin without the responsibility resting squarely on the one person with Free Will -- God.

 

[BobRyan]

Although you've put a lot of emphasis upon "pre-programmed" and "programmed" I can't find either one of them in any of the preceding posts--and certainly not in the one you quoted there.

They keep looking for "What made them choose that" as if the DNA/enivronment caused person A to choose well and person B to choose poorly. That is back to the "programming" model where something other than your free will "makes you" or "causes you" to choose as you did. It is negated by two siblings in the same home choosing differently - "Cain vs Able".

 

[grasping the after wind]

He sinned - but he did not rebel. His offering for sin was as God specified.

How can one sin without being rebellious? Rebellion against God is my definition of sin. Both Cain and Abel were sinners. Neither of their sacrifices was sufficient. Abel's was just more sincere. How one equates either thing to free will or lack of free will is simply a matter of their personal taste. A case could be made either way.

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps you should investigate a third option besides Arminianism and Calvinism: Lutheranism, in which we do not use one verse of scripture to cancel out another, but hold up the whole word of God

That third option is the same as the first two - both them claim to be doing that. Your third option merely begs the question.

 

[Albion]

Free will is specified in God's Word

That's what lot of people think. When reaching their decision, almost all of them take no account of the verses that speak to predestination. But that wasn't my point, really. It was that we come to the issue thinking that we have Free Will...because we want to think of ourselves, i.e. humans, as being free agents, and the idea that everything is in God's hands is somewhat deflating to our sense of self-importance.

 

[BobRyan]

the reason for free will is just that. God loves us so much he gives us free will
Respons-ability is our freedom in this life. choose ye this day whom you will serve.
crucify the flesh with the lust thereof, dont be a servant to sin. allow Christ Jesus to be your salvation.

True. The other reason for it is that it isolates God from the guilt of sin.

If you make a robot that kills your neighbor's dog as programmed - we do not "blame the robot".