Islam:Peaceful and Tolerant?

[wn123455]

We should be talking about islamists terrorizing the Buddhists in Myanmar and the islamists terrorizing and butchering of the Serbs in the Balkans not the other way around.

 

[Deacon Don]

We should be talking about islamists terrorizing the Buddhists in
Myanmar and the islamists terrorizing and butchering of the Serbs
in the Balkans not the other way around.

And especially since it's not the other way around.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

....so, you don't know what you believe yet. OK.

I do know what I believe in when it comes to the subject of god. I believe in nothing when it comes to claims of your god.

My conclusions about god are solid and have been the same for many years in most areas.

That's bad grammar too. You shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition, unless the reason is compelling and the sentence remains clear. Your last attempt to make a statement was terrible. That's two bad grammar strikes.

There is no rule on ending a sentence in a preposition. Also I did not even point out a grammar error before. Considering that most individuals on forums make them all the time(with great abundance) then with your logic one could conclude that 90% of the forum participants present do not speak English. I myself have a humorous habit of using archaic English which includes words such as "hath, shan't, shall, and tis".

When arguments focus on the usage of grammar by the opposing party it is a sure sign of trolling or avoiding a topic.

[qquote]You misspelled "interpreting". What happened to your translator?

Yeah, typo.[/QUOTE]

Hypocrite

He speaks clearly, but He speaks also in a manner that not all comprehend. (Mark 4:9-12)I don't have a problem with that.

Then obviously this god has no intention of us ever understanding him.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

We should be talking about islamists terrorizing the Buddhists in Myanmar and the islamists terrorizing and butchering of the Serbs in the Balkans not the other way around.

This is actually a fairly decent comment considering that so much attention is placed on everything else but Islamic short comings in Western liberal media

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Tell us how rosy it is for the Muslims in Buddhist Burma (the ethnic minority Muslims are deemed one of the most persecuted minorities in the world by the UN), for the Muslims who were killed by the Hindus in Kashmir & Gujurat, and the Muslims who are persecuted everywhere at the hands of Christians (Serbia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Iraq, etc).

So how does their own medicine taste?

My beef is with the claim that Muslims in the West enjoy the same rights & freedoms that our non-Muslim counterparts enjoy. This is absolutely not true.

Evidently better rights and freedoms than they do in Muslim lands, otherwise there wouldn't be so many coming to the West. That's far more than the West owes them.

 

[ContraMundum]

In other words, being in a suit and a tie & calling yourself president means that you will never be practically/realistically guilty of terrorism even though they otherwise fit the definition of it.

Right. You could be guilty of war crimes though. Terrorism may have a permeable definition, but it does exist.

Here's an exercise for you, and I'm interested in seeing your opinion-

a) A bunch of thugs, for religious and political reasons, attack and murder hundreds of unarmed shoppers in a shopping centre. Terrorism or not? If not, what is it?

b) A squadron of bombers drop bombs on factories of an opposing nation during a declared war. The workers were warned beforehand in leaflet and by radio. Some workers are killed. Terrorism or not? If not, what is it?

Tell us how rosy it is for the Muslims in Buddhist Burma (the ethnic minority Muslims are deemed one of the most persecuted minorities in the world by the UN), for the Muslims who were killed by the Hindus in Kashmir & Gujurat, and the Muslims who are persecuted everywhere at the hands of Christians (Serbia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Iraq, etc).

I understand Muslim minorities in some countries have it hard. I appreciate that point. My church has even sent aid in the past.

Christians are persecuting Muslims in Pakistan? Yemen? Iraq? How so? Please keep in mind that military operations carried out by a government is not something done in the Name of Christ, and the participants could be from any or no religion at all. It really doesn't qualify as a Christian thing. Especially in this age of the separation of church and state (a great thing)

Are you seriously saying that country that enters into a war is doing it in the name of their predominant religion?

This is why I can't help but comment on the double standards and hyperbole, not to mention the flawed logic of your posts.

May Allaah protect the Muslims from you and all others who try to remove us from God's religion. Ameen.

God's religion is Judeo-Christianity. Islam is unnecessary. Whatever Islam has- we've had for centuries before. That's why people are flocking to our churches now. The mission field is landing on our soil and applying for asylum. God is good to them.

Ask them how they feel about the wars in Iraq, the drone strikes in Muslim countries, about America's support of Israel (including through the money that is used for the Israeli military), about Guantanamo Bay, about the Patriot Act, about the NDAA, etc.

I have. Most of them don't think the way you do. The young males and females who have been raised in this country and are attending universities with lefty professors are the only ones having a gripe about these issues, and just like you, they're dreadfully biased. They just want a cause to believe in. When I was in university, it was capitalism that was the bad guy. Now it's whatever Noam Chomsky says it is.

The real refugee Muslims I know pretty much take the side of the country that is caring for them and leaving them in peace to pursue their religion and whatever else makes them happy. No religious police, no Imams telling them what to do. They love it.

I have a feeling they'd tell you how evil those things are. If they don't care about any of these things, well, I wouldn't know what to tell them since the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), said,

“The similitude of believers in regard to mutual love, affection, fellow-feeling is that of one body; when any limb of it aches, the whole body aches, because of sleeplessness and fever.” [Muslim]

Yeah, I bet if I shared that with them they'd probably laugh.

*nasheed. It's too bad that they listen to musical instruments. Maybe they don't know it's forbidden in Islaam.

Thank God His old religion has instruments in music. What a grumpy and dreary thing some Muslims have tried to make their religion into.

As for the rest, you do know that these things exist in other countries, too, right?

...but they're all made, designed and lining the pockets of the West and Israel.

Meanwhile:

The best your lot can do is: this.

An Iranian family pointed that out to me- just before their baptisms.

That was my point- isn't it to good to enjoy the life and safety of progress? It's worth protecting, no?

And I have the exact opposite experience with Afghans and the Pathan. Not a single one of them agreed with the war and were actually some of the more outspoken ones regarding it.

I'd guess that those Afghans you speak of were/are supporters of the Northern Alliance and are more nationalist than religious. I'm sure that drug lords were happy with the invasion since opium production has flourished since 2002. Same goes for those who supported & wanted the practice of bacha bazi to continue.

People just like peace, safety and prosperity. Their political views vary in my experience. One Afghan guy I know is very devout, but loves living here and says practicing the religion is better here as well.

As for Syria, I also know lots of Muslims who want the US to intervene in Syria. I also know lots who don't want the US going in. I understand both of their positions.

I am somewhat 'relieved' that America hasn't helped, though (not that I'm happy that the nations throughout the world, in general, are not doing all that much). It's forcing the Muslims to totally depend on Allaah for victory and help. Not that other oppressed Muslims don't already, but there's something about Syria that just seems special.

Yeah, when everybody is losing their cause, they beg for the West and America to help. They complain when they don't get what they want. Then if the US does help, they make up all this propaganda and lies that they are imperialists and the Great Satan etc. Hypocrites man.

As a side note, major props to Sweden. Taking in Syrian refugees was an amazing act on their part. My respect for them has gone up. And IKEA too.

My colleague in Sweden says there are so many candidates for baptism from Islamic refugees that they will soon have to use firehoses. He's joking about the mode of course, but it's a nice problem to have.

1.) My beef is with the claim that Muslims in the West enjoy the same rights & freedoms that our non-Muslim counterparts enjoy. This is absolutely not true.

I think that complaint is baseless. Muslims pretty much get everything they ask for in my country. They even get public pools segregated at special times just for Muslims. If you say anything against them or their religion, you will get taken to court (but if you say anything against Jesus, nothing will happen) In the US, there seems to be almost a litany of complaints about Muslim favoritism.

The fact of the matter is, to me, it looks like a subversive tactic. Use our laws of freedom of expression and their counterbalance (vilification laws) against us and then take them away when "Islam rules the world" (which it won't. No Medieval religion will ever take hold in an educated populace)

2.) Don't most people take sides in politics in at least one issue?

Yes. On this we agree. I know I sound harsh to you, but you know where you stand with me.

4.) When have I ever defended murders in shopping centers?

Have you spoken against them?

Again, my only two options are not to stay silent & don't criticize or leave.

That's three. But I think if I were you, I would honestly leave.

Like I said, it doesn't offer practical guidelines. Complete pacifism is not practical.

Another topic, but could be interesting.

One State Solution: A Historical Perspective

The Status of Non-Muslims In the Islamic State

I've seen those before. They don't seem to add up in real life though. No one of other religions want to live under Islam. No one today would choose it. No one really trusts Islam to control its radicals, and no one I think sees many Islamic countries as stable or safe from radical takeover. Secondly, I don't see lines of people trying to get into Islamic countries. No Jews or Christians are lining up to get citizenship in Saudi A or Iran for example. Instead, I see long, long lines of Jews, Christians and the "wrong kind" of Muslims trying to get out.

 

[ContraMundum]

I do know what I believe in when it comes to the subject of god. I believe in nothing when it comes to claims of your god.

My conclusions about god are solid and have been the same for many years in most areas.

OK.

There is no rule on ending a sentence in a preposition. Also I did not even point out a grammar error before. Considering that most individuals on forums make them all the time(with great abundance) then with your logic one could conclude that 90% of the forum participants present do not speak English. I myself have a humorous habit of using archaic English which includes words such as "hath, shan't, shall, and tis".

Did you have to Google that?

When arguments focus on the usage of grammar by the opposing party it is a sure sign of trolling or avoiding a topic.

It's really more about your sentence being utterly incomprehensible.

Then obviously this god has no intention of us ever understanding him.

Intention? Maybe, maybe not. Up to Him.

The way I see it- you can't put a terrabyte of info on a 1 MB hard drive. We just aren't capable of understanding the deep things of God. I don't have a problem with that.

 

[ContraMundum]

Are you one of those people who've always had the same belief system their entire life with absolutely ZERO change because, ya know, change and examination is evil?

No.

 

[Masihi]

I do know what I believe in when it comes to the subject of god. I believe in nothing when it comes to claims of your god.

My conclusions about god are solid and have been the same for many years in most areas.

Famous last words of 800BC Assyrians when JHVH destroyed them and their war god

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?

Being that France just banned the niqab, and the rise of violence and prejudice attitudes towards Muslims in the UK and other European nations, are you reallly going to start touting superiority? Let's not forget all that's been done in the name of the Church and Crown by your country as well.

I don't wanna hear that "No True Scotsman" cop out either; it's pretty pathetic, and since you're showing pride and vanity, let's keep the sins on coming down.

 

[Zoness]

No.

I ask because of the sort of negative reply you've had towards Immaculate's shifting of beliefs over the years. I've done something similar.

 

[ContraMundum]

I ask because of the sort of negative reply you've had towards Immaculate's shifting of beliefs over the years. I've done something similar.

OK. I figured that.

 

[ContraMundum]

Being that France just banned the niqab, and the rise of violence and prejudice attitudes towards Muslims in the UK and other European nations, are you reallly going to start touting superiority? Let's not forget all that's been done in the name of the Church and Crown by your country as well.

Apples and oranges. In many Islamic countries, it is the government law which stands against the Jews and Christians. Random acts of violence against Muslims in free countries is not supported by the government. Banning niqabs in France comes under a law that pertains to the concelament of the face. It applies to masks, helmets, balaclavas too (why are you not worried about their "rights" as well? oh, that's right, only Muslims can be victims. I almost forgot). It is a wise move to promote security, and if some people don't like it, they can always leave.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Although I despise the niqab as a symbol of female oppression and an insane oversexualization of the female body to the point where even her FACE is considered too intimate and sexually stimulating for the public, I consider France's laws in this regard counter-productive.
No (ideologically or actually) suppressed woman will be set free just because she's no longer allowed to wear a specific piece of clothing. At best, the outward signs of their subjugation will disappear - and at worst, they'll be forced not to venture into public AT ALL.

The only way we can effectively deal with the odious gender ideology of Islam is by actually confronting it, not by using whatever power imbalances might allow us to curb such practices on the spot.

I acknowledge there was a time when Islam was indeed a world view that contributed to societal advances - but that was (more than) a millennium ago, and many parts of the religion have started to look BACK rather than forwards for the better part of two centuries now. I'd flee any place where the bearded men with their invisible, ten-paces-behind-the-husband wives ever rose to power, and I'd fight to stop them from ever achieving that status quo.
But for what it's worth, I'd never approve of a law that'd downright prohibit them from wearing their demeaning clothing. If they cannot reach the point where they'd discard them of their own, it won't do any good to force them, either.

Such freedom is part of the world I fight for, after all.

 

[ContraMundum]

Although I despise the niqab as a symbol of female oppression and an insane oversexualization of the female body to the point where even her FACE is considered too intimate and sexually stimulating for the public, I consider France's laws in this regard counter-productive.

As I hinted at above, France's law is not directed towards the niqab. It's a general law regarding the covering of the face in public. Some Muslims have politicized it and claim it is all about them. But it's not.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

I think the idea that only Muslims can kill in their religion and justify it by the Holy Qur'an, is rather baseless. Christians today, conveniently leave out the Old Testament, saying Jesus PBUH did away with the laws of the past. Not once did he ever speak on that at all. Matter of fact, from what I understand, he simply came to do away with the sacrificing of lambs and sheep for the forgiveness of sins. The rest of the laws and directives from God still stand.

Now, it wasn't until Paul came along that Christians started doing away with the dietary restrictions and other things. So, who do you really listen to in your faith: Jesus or Paul? Jesus didn't eat pork products, ate kosher meals and still practiced the Jewish faith. Yet today, Christians say he abolished those restrictions but there is no mention of him actually saying that. Not even on the day of his resurrection.

Now onto this issue of Muslims being homicidal maniacs. Let's see here. Who orders the assassination of it's own citizens abroad, no remorse for the hundreds killed in bomb attacks and claims they are Christians? Yep, that's the good ole American people. Andrew Jackson, a man who claimed to be a God fearing, Christian man, was probably one of the most staunch supporters and doers in the mass genocide of Native Americans. The Ku Klux Klan, one of the most vile hate groups ever assembled, justified their actions with Christian doctrine, to include the Old Testament in regards to race mixing.

I can keep going if you'd like, but what's the point? We moderate Muslims, who are practicing our religion in peace and living to the Sunnah established by the Prophet SAW are being drowned out by you militant Christians. You'd rather use the Taliban and Al-Qaeda as the example of what Islam is, when in fact they are the opposite. You claim we are regressing to the Dark Ages, but that's a claim you make on your own through stupidity. Yes, stupidity. Ignorance is when you don't know any better, but stupidity is when you know and still go through with your actions.

Islam is indeed a tolerant and peaceful religion; unfortunately today, it is being hijacked by militants who use it to blindly kill anyone they deem "trouble" for their cause.

 

[TG123]

I think the idea that only Muslims can kill in their religion and justify it by the Holy Qur'an, is rather baseless. Christians today, conveniently leave out the Old Testament, saying Jesus PBUH did away with the laws of the past. Not once did he ever speak on that at all. Matter of fact, from what I understand, he simply came to do away with the sacrificing of lambs and sheep for the forgiveness of sins. The rest of the laws and directives from God still stand.

Now, it wasn't until Paul came along that Christians started doing away with the dietary restrictions and other things. So, who do you really listen to in your faith: Jesus or Paul? Jesus didn't eat pork products, ate kosher meals and still practiced the Jewish faith. Yet today, Christians say he abolished those restrictions but there is no mention of him actually saying that. Not even on the day of his resurrection.

Now onto this issue of Muslims being homicidal maniacs. Let's see here. Who orders the assassination of it's own citizens abroad, no remorse for the hundreds killed in bomb attacks and claims they are Christians? Yep, that's the good ole American people. Andrew Jackson, a man who claimed to be a God fearing, Christian man, was probably one of the most staunch supporters and doers in the mass genocide of Native Americans. The Ku Klux Klan, one of the most vile hate groups ever assembled, justified their actions with Christian doctrine, to include the Old Testament in regards to race mixing.

I can keep going if you'd like, but what's the point? We moderate Muslims, who are practicing our religion in peace and living to the Sunnah established by the Prophet SAW are being drowned out by you militant Christians. You'd rather use the Taliban and Al-Qaeda as the example of what Islam is, when in fact they are the opposite. You claim we are regressing to the Dark Ages, but that's a claim you make on your own through stupidity. Yes, stupidity. Ignorance is when you don't know any better, but stupidity is when you know and still go through with your actions.

Islam is indeed a tolerant and peaceful religion; unfortunately today, it is being hijacked by militants who use it to blindly kill anyone they deem "trouble" for their cause.

Salaam Alaikum, MuslimSoldier4Life.

Great post, for the most part. I too don't believe that the murderous extremists among Al Qaeda and the Taleban represent what Islam teaches. People like you are the ones who do. Also, people who claim to be Christians can be just as murderous and vile as those claiming to be Muslims. So-called 'christians' have perpetrated and continue to perpetrate terrible atrocities.

Jesus didn't say He came to do away with the Law, but that He came to fulfill it, to reveal it for what it truly says.

The fully revealed Law does not allow killing for any reason- either offensive or defensive. One cannot kill someone without condemning him or her, and this is God's job. Christians who kill other people- for any reason- disobey Jesus, just as Muslims who kill innocent civilians disobey Islam.

Jesus was the one who converted Paul on the way to Damascus and spoke to Him, so whatever Paul did he did so on Jesus' bequest. Peter ate unclean food because in a dream Jesus told him that whatever God offers is not unclean. Jesus broke the Sabbath and the Pharisees got angry at Him for it, He replied that God made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Now a personal question for you- are you still in the US military? If you are, how can you justify it as a Muslim, being in an organization that murders innocent people? I would ask the same question of Christians in uniform also.

 

[ContraMundum]

I think the idea that only Muslims can kill in their religion and justify it by the Holy Qur'an, is rather baseless. Christians today, conveniently leave out the Old Testament, saying Jesus PBUH did away with the laws of the past. Not once did he ever speak on that at all. Matter of fact, from what I understand, he simply came to do away with the sacrificing of lambs and sheep for the forgiveness of sins. The rest of the laws and directives from God still stand.

Now, it wasn't until Paul came along that Christians started doing away with the dietary restrictions and other things. So, who do you really listen to in your faith: Jesus or Paul? Jesus didn't eat pork products, ate kosher meals and still practiced the Jewish faith. Yet today, Christians say he abolished those restrictions but there is no mention of him actually saying that. Not even on the day of his resurrection.

Could I give you another POV which I think fits better with orthodoxy?

Christ never overturned the Law. He did not abrogate it or annul it. I know some Protestant teachers teach that it has been "done away" with and replaced with the "Law of Christ" (which is still a summary of the Law anyway) and I think that's ok for some interpreters to say that- as the moral law is in force in either case. In my view Christians are to keep the laws that pertain to them and their situation, with the laws which are moral (pertaining to God and neighbour) binding on all humanity. With this in mind, we say Paul is writing to Gentiles when relaxes laws like kosher, as those things still apply to the Jews only. We see Paul personally keeping Jewish law, albeit with a freedom- but that is another topic.

Which brings up the matter of the Old Testament and violence. Whether one thinks the law has been abrogated or not, we end up having no mandate for violence. The wars in the OT were commanded by God through a prophet and were essentially self-defence for the Chosen People, their mission and their future. But they were not laws. They were specific for that time and place only, and not a law to be followed in perpetuity. Here we have the distinction between description of history and prescription of Law or doctrine. This is why Christians do not have the authority to go to war in the name of Christ. The issue of when a Christian can go to war is complex and debated but never in promotion of or to enforce his religion.

The same goes for capital punishment of sins. The OT teaches that there is a very strict procedure to be followed, by the proper authorities, in the prosecution of the accused. It is impossible to follow that procedure now, as those authorities are not in place and even when they were capital punishment was extremely rare, nor is it necessary for Christ teaches mercy and has paid the price for those condemned under the law who are repentant.

Now onto this issue of Muslims being homicidal maniacs. Let's see here. Who orders the assassination of it's own citizens abroad, no remorse for the hundreds killed in bomb attacks and claims they are Christians? Yep, that's the good ole American people. Andrew Jackson, a man who claimed to be a God fearing, Christian man, was probably one of the most staunch supporters and doers in the mass genocide of Native Americans. The Ku Klux Klan, one of the most vile hate groups ever assembled, justified their actions with Christian doctrine, to include the Old Testament in regards to race mixing.

I believe those crimes cannot be laid at the foot of the Christian Faith, but if they were done in the name of Christ (KKK), then there must be repentance from those people who committed those sins.

I can keep going if you'd like, but what's the point? We moderate Muslims, who are practicing our religion in peace and living to the Sunnah established by the Prophet SAW are being drowned out by you militant Christians. You'd rather use the Taliban and Al-Qaeda as the example of what Islam is, when in fact they are the opposite. You claim we are regressing to the Dark Ages, but that's a claim you make on your own through stupidity. Yes, stupidity. Ignorance is when you don't know any better, but stupidity is when you know and still go through with your actions.

A lot of Christians, me included, have a lot of difficulty reconciling your words with those of other Muslims who cite the same books you do. It's often been asked- who are the real Muslims? Both quote the Quran. Both claim to be the real Muslims. We can say that you can spot a Christian following Jesus if he behaves in a Christ-like manner. There's a litmus test for a Christian (outwardly speaking), but it gets even harder when we apply a similar test to Muslims and Mohammed.

So, how do you think I should recognise the real Islam and the real Muslim? What are you taught about this?

Islam is indeed a tolerant and peaceful religion; unfortunately today, it is being hijacked by militants who use it to blindly kill anyone they deem "trouble" for their cause.

I've heard that said- but how can we tell?

 

[ContraMundum]

Jesus was the one who converted Paul on the way to Damascus and spoke to Him, so whatever Paul did he did so on Jesus' bequest. Peter ate unclean food because in a dream Jesus told him that whatever God offers is not unclean. Jesus broke the Sabbath and the Pharisees got angry at Him for it, He replied that God made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath.

I honestly can't agree with you brother. Peter never ate unclean food. that was a vision from Jesus to teach him that Gentiles were now in the covenant and no longer ritually unclean. Likewise, Jesus did not break the Sabbath, just a particularly strict application of it. People familiar with Jewish law soon realize that He was applying the rabbinic principle that a positive commandment overrules a prohibitive one under certain conditions. Therefore the accusation of Him breaking the Sabbath is a false accusation. He could not be the Messiah if He broke the Law, and if it could be proven, I would go back to my religion of birth- orthodox Judaism- in a flash.

Now a personal question for you- are you still in the US military? If you are, how can you justify it as a Muslim, being in an organization that murders innocent people? I would ask the same question of Christians in uniform also.

You don't join the military to murder innocent people, but to legally kill enemy combatants. Awful, I know, but that's why I joined all those years ago (I've been a long time out)

 

[kenzo0]

Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?

once again, I quote your head thread...
want to show you how tolerant Islam is...to their fellow muslims..

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