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Islam:Peaceful and Tolerant?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Danny777, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    I'm absolutely staggered at how little you know about Christianity.

    Yes, sins, even committed by a Christian, will not go unpunished. However, Jesus died to forgive the sins of those who repent and trust in Him.

    So, yes, Christianity is very tough on sin. Far tougher than any other religion. We take sin very seriously. Better still, we have a gracious God.

    The main difference between the religion of Muslims that I have spoken to and classical Christian orthodoxy is this: we believe God is a just God, and is therefore obligated to bring justice. Therefore, sin is to be punished. Furthermore, you cannot simply ask to be forgiven and expect it. Imagine a murderer can say "I'm sorry, I won't do it again" before a judge. Would a judge be carrying out justice if he said "OK, you can go free then, just don't do it again". That would not be justice. So, God in His gracious mercy has provided a way out for us- Jesus pays the price (willingly) for our sins. Justice has been met, mercy has been demonstrated and grace is abounding for all who ask.

    This concept is foreign to Islam, a religion that teaches a different doctrine of god. It borrows heavily from Judaism and Christianity but ultimately teaches a different doctrine.

    So, Christians are not perfect or sinless, but are being conformed to the image of Jesus, if they live in faith. If not, they will go the way of sinners. Those living outside of God's grace will never have the power to overcome sin, but those living in God's grace will.

    If a Christian sins on occassion, he or she is still in the faith, but he or she must repent. In fact, the Spirit of God indwelling them will make their heart contrite and they will desire nothing else than repentance, and they will not rest until they have it. If a person lives a lifestyle of sin, they are not Christians, and they have no evidence of saving faith. Their desire will not be to repent, unless compelled by God's Spirit first, an invitation to become a Christian.

    To put it this way- the Christian faith takes both sin and grace very seriously. By grace we mean that no one can save him or herself, but God saves us though we are unworthy. The sinner is helpless to save himself. No matter how many prayers they make, how many overtures to "worship" they make, how many deeds they do- they will never know if they have done enough to make up for the sins that they have committed. Their kindest acts cannot cover up the filthy rags that adorn their sins. Only God can make our filthy rags into robes of righteousness. He does this by providing for us the sacrifice for sins, and He changes our hearts and desires when we truly repent that we would be hungry to follow after His commandments, to live righteously and to do good deeds. When we are in His grace, our prayers, worship and deeds take on meaning and have a spiritual effect.

    I brought that text before you because it shows that God's forgiveness is in the Gospel. The sacrifice of Jesus is for all, but not all want it.

    While I've heard this argument, it does become circular reasoning to stick by it, and it doesn't doesn't consider all the facts necessary for a proper assessment of the religion of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob (who has given His name as YHVH, though I will not be pronoucing it)

    If I follow your logic, there is absolutely no reason to think that Mohammed is the last prophet (just because he says so!). Why? From Genesis to Malachi the people of God have been awaiting a Messiah. The Messiah is the last prophet, the last lawgiver, the bringer of truth and through Him all things will come to conclusion. After Him there is no more need of law-giving prophets, no other way of life to be revealed etc. This is the religion of the Old Testament, the religion of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah etc. All foretell of and await a final Messiah.

    However, according to both Christianity and your religion, Jesus is the Messiah. So, if we believe the OT prophets, Adam, Abraham, Issac, Moses etc and it is also believed that Jesus is the Messiah, then according to the religion of God, we're not expecting anyone else, despite what others will say.

    So to say that Mohammed is a prophet of the same religion is to deny the old religion and it's claim to be consummated and finalized by a Messiah. By shifting the borders to mean that religion is merely a set of temporary laws which are added to and taken away from, which Muslims have done, is to deny the whole point of the OT. The religion of God has never been just about the laws, but about the redemption of humanity through the Messiah. Both Jews and Christians believe this, but we do not agree on who the Messiah is. Muslims simply throw away (yet pay lip service to) the entire Messianic message of the prophets of God.

    In other words, Islam is in a precarious position. You cannot say both that the Messiah has arrived and that there is another non-Jewish prophet after him. It's simply not been foretold by the prophets. The religion of God asks us to await a Jewish Messiah, and nothing afterward.

    If the Messiah hasn't come, then Mohammed cannot be the last prophet. If Messiah has come, then Mohammed cannot be a law-giving prophet at all.

    I realize of course that the only logical way around this conundrum is to deny the authenticity of the Old Testament (and the New) and change the story. This is precisely what your religion has done. I find that very difficult to accept and it is an insult to God's sovereign power and His ability to preserve His words.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  2. kenzo0

    kenzo0 Newbie

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  3. Deacon Don

    Deacon Don Regular Member

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    Practitioners of that "religion of peace" know very little about any
    religion including that "religion of peace".
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Will Muslims ever be satisfied with their own countries and quite invading other countries?

     
  5. kenzo0

    kenzo0 Newbie

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    I can warranty you, they would never ever satisfied, because they intend to dominate the world

    [​IMG]
    klik http://www.christianforums.com/t7787192-2/



    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  6. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Baha'i

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    Oh--and no other religion has the same asipiration, huh?

    You will forgive me, I trust, if I find your statement grossly biased.

    Bruce
     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I guess it is by what means and in the end will it consume itself.
     
  8. LoAmmi

    LoAmmi Dispassionate

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    I see it the same way. How can one claim that HaShem gave His words to people and then allowed His words to be corrupted to the point that a brand new book was needed because the old books couldn't be trusted anymore.

    I don't know. I guess I just believe He's a bit more powerful than that and a bit smarter than that too. Having to go to a backup plan is more of a human fault.
     
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Challenge God to do a face to face with you and reveal if He is the God of the Bible or Koran.... God of the Bible wins...:clap:.. Been there done that.. :bow:got my Tshirt.:wave:
     
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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  11. LoAmmi

    LoAmmi Dispassionate

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    No, no. We've moved way past tents now. We have houses!
     
  12. kenzo0

    kenzo0 Newbie

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    [​IMG] is it?
    does any other religion did the same thing? OR have the same teaching?
    OR do you find other religion allow its follower to persecute other religion's follower?[​IMG]
     
  13. Deacon Don

    Deacon Don Regular Member

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    That "religion of peace" isn't a religion of peace.

    Period.
     
  14. LoveBeingAMuslimah

    LoveBeingAMuslimah Newbie

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    Justice is a foreign concept to Islaam? One of His Attributes is the Most-Just (al-Adl).

    Surely! Allāh wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a small ant), but if there is any good (done), He doubles it, and gives from Him a great reward. (An-Nisa 4:40)

    Who are you to tell us that a deity has to die in order for this justice to be met? Fine, your religion says that, but my religion says that my Lord's mercy & forgiveness is far greater than any of our sins. Even the worst sins of all (major shirk - associating partners with Allaah or giving His Attributes to other than Him and major kufr - major disbelief) just need to be sincerely repented from in this life. No death of our deity necessary.

    Allaah said:

    Say: "O 'Ibādī (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allāh, verily Allāh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Az-Zumar 39:53)

    I could never accept a dying God because that goes against the concept of God.

    Also:

    1.) Isn't God the Most-Powerful? Why does He need to die & take such drastic measures for the actions of those whom He created? My Lord says, "Be!" and it is.

    2.) How is it a sacrifice for God? God did not cease to exist except for those 3 days (and who was God for those days, btw)?

    So they're not perfect/sinless. Why is it, then, that you said that a Christian cannot be violent? It seems like a very easy cop-out. It's like me saying that since being a Muslim means submitting to Allaah both linguistically & practically, a Muslim can never be an alcoholic. Yeah, it's a sin but it doesn't take one out of Islaam in and of itself.

    We're told that no one will get into Paradise except by the Mercy of our Lord, not even the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who was the best of mankind. But we're also told that He promises Paradise to His believing slaves and that a person with an atom's weight of faith in his heart will eventually be given Paradise.

    There is the verse in the Qur'aan where God says that the Prophet Muhammad is the last of the Prophets. And the Prophet Muhammad, himself, also said he is the last of the Messengers. If they said this, then obviously I am going to believe them. Otherwise I wouldn't be a Muslim. I'm a Muslim because I believe every single word that God said is the truth.

    No, according to the religion of God, Muhammad was the last Messenger (which automatically means last Prophet) and Jesus is going to be sent back to this earth as a member of the nation of Muhammad. He will abolish Christianity & Judaism & he will kill the anti-Christ. He will rule for a period of years and then die as every soul shall taste death.

    So we throw away the entire message of the Oneness of God and how we should worship Him & not reject anything He says? Because that's what Islaam revolves around. That was the fundamental message of each Prophet that has ever been sent. Even if the laws were different, this was always the same.

    Not in a precarious position at all. All praises belong to Him for this great, uncorrupted religion.

    This is what Allaah says in the Qur'aan:

    And (remember) when Allāh took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah (understanding of the Laws of Allāh, etc.), and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him." Allāh said: "Do you agree (to it) and will you take up My Covenant (which I conclude with you)?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses (for this)." (Aali Imran 3:81)

    `Ali bin Abi Talib and his cousin `Abdullah bin `Abbas said, "Allah never sent a Prophet but after taking his pledge that if Muhammad were sent in his lifetime, he would believe in and support him.''


    "The Muslims do not pin their hopes on someone who will save or deliver them, as is the case with the Jews, the Christians and the Raafidis (Shi’ah). Islam is complete and its rulings are complete." Islam Question and Answer - Question about the messiah in Islam

    I think the term "Messiah" has different definitions for us. We don't take "messiah (massih)" to mean Prophet (nabi) or Messenger (rasool). Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger, but he is not being sent back to this earth as a messenger (which includes prophet). As mentioned above, he is going to be a member of the nation of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

    1.) So you find this an insult to God's sovereign power, but you don't find God dying (even worse, being overpowered and killed by His own creation) an insult to His power. Interesting.

    2.) We never said that God is not powerful enough to preserve His Words, I seek refuge with Him from such a statement! Allaah has never before promised to preserve the previous scriptures in this world (though they're preserved in the Preserved Tablet in the highest heaven) nor is it against the concept of God to not preserve those scriptures. He only promised this with the Qur'aan which is why the Qur'aan is still unaltered in this world, all praises belong to Him.

    To recap:

    Allaah did not promise to guard the previous scriptures in this world. I read somewhere that Allaah gave the responsibility of guarding these scriptures to the people to whom they were revealed. People altered it bit by bit for a miserable price/gain.

    Allaah, Himself, promised to guard the Qur'aan from corruption. Now we have the same Qur'aan today that was revealed from Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them both). The Promise of Allaah is true.

    3.) Allaah had the power to destroy Satan from the moment he disobeyed Him, but through His infinite divine wisdom, He didn't. Allaah had the power to destroy all disbelievers from the very start (including those who altered the scriptures), but through His divine wisdom, He didn't. It does not, by any means, mean He is weak. It means a.) He did not promise to do either of those things and b.) it does not go against the concept of God to not do those things. Similarly, He did not promise to guard the previous scriptures from corruption nor does it go against the concept of God to not guard them from corruption.

    4.) The authenticity of these books is disputed by non-Muslims, not just us. And the fact that people AFTER Jesus (peace be upon him) wrote many things in the Bible seals the deal for us that this is not what was revealed from Angel Gabriel to Jesus (peace be upon them).
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  15. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Merely ascribing justice to God while not demonstrating how He is just is making an empty statement. We believe that God is both just and merciful, both punishing sin and accquitting the sinner. In Islam, He is merciful but not just. Sin deserves punishment (according to the earlier prophets)

    There's a difference between cannot be violent and will not be violent. A person with a car may break the speed limit but if he is a good driver he will not break the speed limit. Christianity is the change of heart, miraculously wrought by the power of God in the sinner, by which his intentions will change. It's sin rehab with real power. Real Christians are in real sin rehab, not relying on their own energies or works, but on God's transforming powerful grace in their lives.

    How do you know when you've got enough faith in your heart for your god to forgive you? How is justice done for your sins? Or is your god an unjust god, who doesn't punish sin but just let's it slide?

    You cite the Quran, but I don't heed it at all. Why? It needs to pass the test first. Before I listen to or accept a single word of the Quran I need to see if Mohammed passes the prophet test- and as I mentioned before, he simply can't be a prophet if the Messiah has come.

    Addressing the real problem here hasn't been done. You cannot claim to follow the Old Prophets and also say that Jesus is the long awaited Messiah and further claim that anyone (Mohammed) will come after the Messiah with a new set of laws that are binding on all mankind.

    Not one prophet ever said that. They all agreed that the Messiah was the final word, the final prophet, everything. Both Islam and Christianity claim that Jesus is the Messiah.

    I realize I am repeating myself here, but Islam avoids this problem by merely re-defining the terms, and messing with the books and the message- with absolutely no support or authority to do so from the earlier Biblical texts of Judaism and Christianity. By what authority does Mohammed redefine the word of the Old prophets and the Messiah? He cannot claim God gave him authority because that begs the question- if he was not expected, then why should anyone believe God sent him? The Old Testament prophets spoke only of a Messiah from among the Jews to come, and then nothing else afterward. No prophet ever prophesied that after the Messiah a final prophet would come from the Arabs.

    You see the problem? You can't say that Jesus is Messiah and that Mohammed is the final prophet as well- unless you change the books and their message! This is dangerous stuff! Messing with the word of God, spoken through His holy prophets is dangerous!

    You say that God would not protect His word? This is incorrect.

    Says the prophet Isaiah- 40:8 The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."

    Says the prophet King David- Psalms 12:6-7 "6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

    and again Ps. 111:7-8 "The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."

    and again

    Ps. 117:2 "...the truth of the Lord endureth for ever. Praise ye the Lord."

    Ps. 119:152 "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."

    Ps 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

    Psalm 33:11 "The counsel of the Lord standeth forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations."

    Psalm 100:5 "For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."

    Ps 119:89-90 "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth."

    Isaiah 59:21 "As for me this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not pass out of the thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed saith the Lord, from henceforth and forever."

    Says the Messiah, Jesus- Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

    Says the Blessed Apostle Peter- 1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever."

    But if you add or take away from this promised, pure and Divinely protected word (as Islam does), God says:

    "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." (Deuteronomy 4:2)

    Is God a liar, or are Moses, Jesus and David the liars? How about this simple answer: God is true, and His promises are true. Therefore He stands behind what He has promised to His prophets. The Word shall be preserved and no one will add or take away from it.

    Lastly, if you add or take away from the Word, you are following the example of the serpent in the Garden, enticing others to question God's authority -

    "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (Genesis 3:1)

    No it wasn't. That's just the Islamic spin on it that removes the whole message. Worship one God, follow His words and await His redemption for all mankind. This is the message given to Adam, Abraham etc. Islam merely removes redemption from the full message.

    Only the original Jewish (from the first prophets) definition matters. Anything contradicting that is from the enemy.

    That's not a valid or orthodox understanding of Christian doctrine.

    1) We see God's mercy, justice and love in the mission and death of Jesus on the Cross, making ultimate and Divine atonement for our sins, harmonizing the sacrificial model and laws given to Moses.

    2) We see God's power in the resurrection and the defeat of death, Hell and the Devil.

    Completely refuted above.

    That's just a Conspiracy theory not supported by the Word.

    As is the Quran.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  16. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Baha'i

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    You're shifting ground, and not addressing my original point.


    Bruce
     
  17. LoAmmi

    LoAmmi Dispassionate

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    I could argue that your scenario played out almost exactly as you describe with King David and the prophet Nathan speaking for HaShem without there being a Jesus to pay the price.
     
  18. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Of course, but the NT teaches that all forgiveness, before and after the Cross (which occured in space and time) is the result of the sacrifice of the Cross (which occured in eternity) IOW, killing animals in the Torah was a figure (like a NT sacrament) of the atonement mediated in the eternal sacrifice. This means both justice and mercy occur. We've discussed this before? Maybe?
     
  19. LoAmmi

    LoAmmi Dispassionate

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    You and I might not have. Seems like I should be covered even if I don't believe if that is the case.
     
  20. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Indeed. Perhaps etc. I wouldn't be the first to take that thought seriously.