1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

  2. Faith Options in Your User Profile
    Please click on the following regarding this important notice in Announcements:

    Faith Options in Your User Profile.

Islam and the Founding Fathers

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by A Is A, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. A Is A

    A Is A New Member

    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Atheist
    "The Founding Fathers never wood haf tawked to thes Mooslim bastards, amirite?!"

    No.

    You are not right.

    In fact, the Muslim Sultan Mohammed ben Abdallah of Morocco was the first world leader to recognize the United States as a sovereign nation.

    Morocco: the Islamist awakening and ... - Google Books


    Even if they were staunch Christians (or deists, whatever), plenty of the Founding Fathers had a healthy admiration for the Muslim faith. Thomas Jefferson, for example, taught himself Arabic using his own copy of the Quran and hosted the first White House Iftar during Ramadan.
    [​IMG]
    Jefferson believed in celebrating the deliciousness of all world religions.
    John Adams hailed the Islamic prophet Muhammad as one of the great "inquirers after truth." Benjamin Rush, who was so Christian he wanted a Bible in every school, also said he would rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mohammad "inculcated upon our youth" than see them grow deprived "of a system of religious principles." Benjamin Franklin once declared: "Even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service." Even George Washington personally welcomed Muslims to come work for him at Mount Vernon.

     
  2. brindisi

    brindisi New Member

    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Methodist

    Good post. Thanks.:wave:
     
  3. lordbt

    lordbt $

    Messages:
    6,484
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Atheist
    Is there some sort of point you are trying to make there, A is A?
     
  4. brindisi

    brindisi New Member

    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Methodist
    Not exactly related to Islam, but IS related to firsts for our young American nation.

    St. Eustachius - tiny Caribbean island, now part of the Netherlands - provided the first international recognition of American independence with a traditional 13 gun salute in 1776 for the American brig Andrea Doria upon its entering port. There are probably many countries, large and small, with some kind of American first, but I - having spent years in the U.S. navy - like the idea of our tiny neighbor having this particular first.

    Barbara Tuchman, one of my favorite authors, wrote about this event in her aptly named The First Salute. Well worth reading BTW. Tuchman has a terrific writing style.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2010
  5. A Is A

    A Is A New Member

    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Atheist
    Yeah, like America and Muslims aren't the archenemies some believe them to be. And that the Founding Fathers were brilliant men who respected many cultures and faiths.
     
  6. blueapplepaste

    blueapplepaste the purpose of life is a life of purpose

    Messages:
    7,245
    Likes Received:
    94
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Others
    Faith:
    Catholic
    I don't speak for A is A obviously, but I do think there is a point that so many who have such self professed die-hard admiration (almost worship) of the founding fathers are also some of the same people who scream about how terrible Islam is.

    Seems the founding fathers didn't think it was so bad.
     
  7. A Is A

    A Is A New Member

    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Atheist
  8. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

    Messages:
    16,448
    Likes Received:
    176
    Gender:
    Male
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Faith:
    Humanist
    I've heard that the then Republic of Dubrovnik was the first state to recognise US independence. But that too is apparently open to scrutiny (as omniscient Google tells me).
     
  9. BoltNut

    BoltNut Newbie

    Messages:
    1,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Calvary-Chapel
    An interesting post. But I still fail to see any correlation between this and the situation we have today.
     
  10. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    11,046
    Likes Received:
    29
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    How many years later were we fighting the Barbary Pirates?

    This is more a correlation of today than the OP's.
     
  11. Bubbahotep

    Bubbahotep Guest

    We had more in common with the Islamic world back then. We owned slaves and treated women like second class citizens in terms of legal rights.

    Even then, even the most religious of early Americans aren't remembered for "honor killings", or particular brutality towards non-believers like we have with the Islamic world today.

    After seeing the effects of radical Islam on 9/11, me thinks Washington and the Gang would have though twice about someone coming over here to preach Wahabist teachings.
     
  12. Douger

    Douger Veteran

    Messages:
    5,974
    Likes Received:
    20
    Faith:
    Christian
    You have to understand that they way you see Islam through the lense of 9/11, is the way many others see religious Americans through their support of America's wars.
     
  13. RETS

    RETS Telling it like it is

    Messages:
    2,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    In Relationship
    Politics:
    US-Constitution
    Faith:
    Christian
    The correlation, I think, is a bit misplaced, yet still relevant. It is not Islam as a collective of individuals that the US is at war with, or should be at war with; instead, the war ought to be against the radical fundamentalism that would take grudges centuries old and act out of vengeance today. Naturally, I am using the grudge thing as a weak, yet best case, example.


    Brilliant and respectful, yes- However, they were also not likely to abstain from violence because of half the reasons this nation has offered up in the past eight to ten years. Just sayin'.

    Nice post, by the way.


    Yes, and no. Our founders were certainly open to others of all faiths, ideals and nationalities. However, they were also not the type to be bullied. It is possible to have a war against extremists of a particular belief structure without condemning the entire following. Example: By now, most people know I have severe ideological differences with Islam in general, but I do not see every Muslim as an enemy.


    We did have more in common when one looks at the the fact that the things you mentioned were considered the norm by both cultures. However, the United States, and the peoples therein, had "evolved" past the treachery and cruelty of the Middle Ages. Were they still coming up with inventive new ways to kill my people? Oh, yes. Nevertheless, on the whole the US was about 200+ years ahead of those in the Barbary example, in terms of human rights awareness.


    That is, perhaps, true. Nevertheless, there are two differences between the most recent examples of Islamic extremist "jihad" and the United States' war response: One group of examples were done in the name of a deity and possibly retribution; and one group in the name of defense, security and the usual national concerns.
    The second difference is far greater: One was carried out by a loose-knit group of murderous religious fanatics, and the other by a sovereign nation acting in its best interest.
     
  14. sdmsanjose

    sdmsanjose Regular Member

    Messages:
    3,660
    Likes Received:
    15
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Christian

    If you refresh yourself on American history you will see that Muslims have not been treated as archenemies when you look at it for the 234 years we have been a country. As a matter of fact America has been pretty good to Muslims. Muslims have all the rights that any one else does, we allow Muslims to build Mosques, and to proselytize their faith. Do all Muslim nations allow Christians and Jews to have the same rights and treatment that America has given Muslims?

    Now as far as recent events, due in most part to 9-11, America has changed a bit of their view on Muslims. However, the majority of Americans and the powers of America have not treated Muslims as archenemies. We have gone after specific Muslims that have killed Americans in suicide attacks because of their radical Muslim beliefs.
    We know the difference between a few religious nuts from Saudi Arabia that flew planes into our buildings and the Muslim nation of Saudi Arabia

    If America’s majority held to the belief that Muslims are our archenemies then we would have attacked Lebanon when Muslims killed 244 marines, attacked Iran when they held Americans hostages, and attack Saudi Arabia because most of the 9-11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia.

    So you see America is not all bad. In fact we even went to war with Iraq in the 1990s partly due to Saudi Arabia’s request. Furthermore we liberated the Kuwaitis from the brutality of their Muslim brothers in Iraq.
     
  15. salida

    salida Veteran

    Messages:
    4,573
    Likes Received:
    2
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Constitution
    Faith:
    Christian
  16. Moncus

    Moncus Newbie

    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Christian
    Oh boy X_x...
     
  17. Archaeopteryx

    Archaeopteryx Wanderer

    Messages:
    16,448
    Likes Received:
    176
    Gender:
    Male
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Faith:
    Humanist
  18. RETS

    RETS Telling it like it is

    Messages:
    2,352
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    In Relationship
    Politics:
    US-Constitution
    Faith:
    Christian
    Well, by all means, don't match them, Vandy.

    Of course, just because they held the opinions they did based upon nothing more than Islam's own reading and representatives, as opposed to the conglomeration of misinformation and propaganda available today, well... I'm sure they were far less informed and more akin to idiots than the people of today.

    :muahah:
     
  19. Supreme

    Supreme Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Mod Staff on LOA

    Messages:
    11,877
    Likes Received:
    38
    Faith:
    Protestant
    Muslim Americans constitute a growing population of 2.5 million, and it's good to hear America has always treated them with respect. Muslims have always been a fabric of American society.
     
  20. revanneosl

    revanneosl Mystically signifying since 1985

    Messages:
    4,513
    Likes Received:
    32
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Methodist
    Y'all should have a gander at the article which was excerpted in the OP - it's really marvelous.

    Also, it will clear up some misconceptions about Islam that are clearly held by people posting in this very thread, such as the mistaken idea that Islam holds women to be second-class citizens.

    Fair warning though - this is a Cracked.com article. The language therein may be disturbing to some.

    5 Ridiculous Things You Probably Believe About Islam | Cracked.com
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2010
Loading...