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Is there disagreement with "leadership" or just how it's normally defined?

Discussion in 'Married Couples' started by mkgal1, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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    Dreamer explained this well (IMO) in the other thread...

    I hope you don't mind my quoting of your post. I agree with this perspective. It both "fits" with the Bible and my experience. When I read that "man is head of the wife"....I take that to mean "source of life"...as in "where the nourishment comes from". Isn't that like Christ? Another way to describe it is....."God supplies---->>husband receives and is able to give love------>>wife receives and able to give love."

    I don't mean that we as wives cannot receive God's love on our own.....but, IME....there are issues if the husband is "in the way" of that.....almost intercepting it--taking away from the love God is giving. (As I said in the other thread....I'm still not completely settled on this....still pondering....processing).

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    I am from a very fundamentalist, take the Bible literally background (not in childhood, but in my adult life since I became an evangelical christian in 1979). Though I have relaxed some, for me there remains no way around the fact that the Bible has differing instructions for husbands and wives. For ages, the way I heard the teachings about this and the way I understood it was very demeaning to me as a woman. But then about 7 years ago when I started to go deeper with the Lord, He revealed Himself to me in ways that clarified His character and His love for me.

    Being “SUBJECT TO HIM [Christ] in EVERYTHING” Eph 5:24 is not about a hierarchal institution, demandingness, obedience, duty, performance, and punishment but about connection, love, relationship, safety, and freedom and yes, even a kind of “control” but a “control” which is “GOOD news”! A control which is organic in nature, tender, gracious, liberating, uplifting, and joyful with no resemblance whatsoever to an authoritarian power grab.

    For a Christian wife, being “subject to her husband in everything” may or may not resemble her experience being “subject to Christ in everything” depending on how much her husband reflects Christlikeness in the manner in which he treats her (which is the thrust of Paul’s teaching directed to husbands in context of Ephesians 5).

    When certain men speak of husband leadership, it sounds very loving to me, very Christlike- (McScribe for example here).

    But I've never experienced it personally in my marriage of 29 years and I have decided its an unrealistic expectation of my husband. Not that he won't but that he CAN'T.

    As a recovering practitioner of QF, I read this blog sometimes. Some of the women have rejected their faith because of the abuses they lived under, but KR Wordgazer is a Christian and wrote an article which I think has some interesting things to ponder. I'm going to post a clip for you because you might like to consider these if your husband is like mine and CAN'T be an unselfish "leader" (my husband has empathic failure, can't identify with anyone else's feelings- similar to a form of Autism but he's highly intelligent and pretty functional)
    . He was a micromanager but I don't tolerate/enable that anymore.

     
  3. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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    Thank you for sharing all that, Ps63. This makes so much sense to me:

    What wasn't making sense in regards to this idea of "authority" is how man and woman become one in marriage, but man is considered to have "authority". How can you have both--a heirarchy & oneness??.....it didn't work in my mind. Now I see why.....because it's really contradictory to God's word.
     
  4. JRSut1000

    JRSut1000 Newbie no more!

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    What about Y'shua and the Father? They are echad (one), yet on earth Y'shua submitted to the Father, even when it was most difficult. "Let this cup pass, yet not my will but thine be done."

    Or let's take the Bride (church) and Christ for example. We belong to Him, we are bought with a price, He loved us and laid down His life for us. Yet He wants us for Himself because of His extravagant love. He chose us to be His bride, how exciting!! And we said 'yes'. Yes to His love, but also yes to His leadership, to honor and obey Him. We don't
     
  5. JRSut1000

    JRSut1000 Newbie no more!

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    Ugh, this new computer is so hard to use!! I just had a whole reply and down it went!

    Anyways, quick recap of what I deleted by accident: Bride/Christ analogy as paul sets forth. Christ loved us, set His eyes on us to be His bride. he paid for us, laid down His life for us. He chose us, we said yes. Yes to His extravagant love, and also yes to his leaderhsip. That's how I see it as an example of marraige too. After all, isnt marriage a 'type' of relationship with Him?

    Oh oops, it DID post!
     
  6. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    Quite some time ago, I looked at Genesis 1:24-26 (any English version of your choosing dominion=authority) and it jumped right out at me. So simple and clear and God never retracted it. It's still His will.

    It reminds me of "the emperor has no clothes"...

    [​IMG]

    You need NO theological credentials to see it! To the contrary, theological credentials appear to have the ability to make people blind.:confused:






     
  7. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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    Absolutely. Just as Galatians 5:7 says:

     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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    Yes....but, that choice was left up to Christ, and He was fully human as well. From how I understand it....the prayer in the garden was Christ bringing His humanity under the will of the Father. It gives us a perfect example of how we are to truly desire God's will--not our own, and demonstrates that it's possible.

    He (Jesus) later said, "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." We have the authority of our own will. Just as Ps63 explained here we have freedom of conscience.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
  9. McScribe

    McScribe Me

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    We have a mistaken idea of how to relate to one another in many ways. For example we put too much on our pastors and ministers when we don't study scripture for ourselves and take up our own spiritual responsibilities and moral responsibilities. There was a time when the average Christian was illiterate or semi literate and lacked access to scripture, and of course there was a time when on top of that there was no "New Testament" but a bunch of letters and testimonies. It's different now, we have tons of stuff we can look at, every translation under the sun. So the Word hasn't changed but we have, but only in the sense that we have learned more and had more available. Our essential nature hasn't.

    In the same way marital relations have changed in the way that they basically work for many societies, but the Word has not essentially changed. I think it still has the radical message that we are all precious in the sight of God, and that it is on that basis that we relate as a married couple. That as Jesus leads, men are to lead, and as the church submits, women are to submit. Unfortunately this is distorted. Jesus in the minds of many still today is a Master and people go through routines of worship as though he is an Emperor in a spiritual realm rather than our saviour who is also our friend and teacher. So of course then if a man is to lead like Christ he must command and punish. Same reasoning applies to submission. So to understand biblical things we need to look at how Christ actually acts and what meaning can be put to what he actually says.

    So if you follow this and see Jesus constantly encouraging his followers and in fact not berating them so much for disobedience but for not having faith, if you look at his generosity, constant example of humility before God, his anger without sin, his truthfulness, healing and power before evil, what kind of leadership is that?

    If you look at the disciples increasing gaining of wisdom, humility before God, increasing love for the truth, humility before God, their own increasing willingness to take risks in the name of faith, what kind of submission is that ? How do we see them submitting to Christ?
     
  10. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Much of what I read about leadership within church circles is little more than a repeat of non Christian (ie fleshly) principles. Christian leadership is a radical reversal of all other patterns.

    Matt 20:24-28 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
    NIV
    I have bolded the upside down leadership Jesus taught. That verse has echoes of Is 53. The chapter begins:

    Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? NIV
    The arm of the Lord is God's royal approval and support. The answer is in the following verses, the suffering servant. Then we see this:
    Isa 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. NIV

    It is the suffering self sacrificing servant who receives the King's favour. The Jewish people were looking for a military Messiah, someone to overthrow the hated Romans. They wanted an old style God, a warrior king. Thus they missed Jesus.

    Paul has a similar thought.
    Col 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. NIV

    In Revelation, a letter written to encourage Christian facing persecution by the Roman Empire it is a slain lamb who overcomes:
    Rev 5:6-12 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song:

    "You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased men for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth." NIV

    When leadership is equated with 'being the boss' we do not have a biblical understanding of it.

    John
    NZ
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    mkgal1 likes this.
  11. Fran75

    Fran75 Senior Member

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    McScribe, you make argument that I rarely see. We need to look at the verses in the bible in the context that they were written, in the context and tone of the rest of the chapter and whith a basic knowledge of what society was like at the time it was written. The Old Testament gave instructions to slaves and and their masters but it does not nessicarily condone slavery which was more like indentered servents than than the more recent version practiced in the southern United States. Old Testament men could have multiple wives, another thing not considered appropriate today. I am not saying we should ignore the Old Testament it is still very relavent today but if we choose to make inferences from it we need to be careful. Also ppl often forget that for centuries only the very wealth and members of the clergy (priests and monks) were literate and all bibles were handwritten, taking years, making it nearly impossible for the average person to be a "Bible Christian" our access to the Bilble and religious books is a great benefit but one that needs to be exercised with caution, it is easy to lead ourselves and other astray.
     
  12. dallasapple

    dallasapple New Member

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    I agree with this 100%...and unfortunately too many men are looking to the wife IMHO to LEAD him FEED HIM the "motive" FIRST to even begin to love her in anyway shape or form as Christ loves the church..

    Hes refusing to lead..refusing to set as loving "example" and be the head ..that she will naturally gravitate to and lean on as a guide..He isnt focussed on Christ hes focussed on her and what he wants out of her to fill his gigantic void..

    Its twisted wrong in so many ways it even gets suggested that the WIFE is supposed to be the one to SACRIFICE to her husband in a manner that compares HER to CHRIST dying a torturous death on the cross..when its point blank stated thats the MANS role to the wife..NOT HERS!I see too many men foucessed on the wife respecting him "no matter what" the wife is supposed to submit to him not the other way around..then when it comes time for SACRIFICING as Christ did for us...Oh thats for BOTH the man and the wife..the wife is suddenly in a mutual role of deep sacrifice to him same as Christ...So then the husbadn isnt leading ...lets put it this way hes feeding off of her for the motive NOT GOD...then he demands "respect" no matter how rotten he is..and she is supposed to suppsedly let him have 'final say" AND she is now in the role of making "sacrifices" comparable to CHRISTS not wanting to die on the cross but doing so anyway out of love ..to her husband..that is CLEARLY unBiblical..nowhere is a wife instructed to make such sacrifices for her husband..

    Dallas
     
  13. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Context is important, but too often overlooked by text quoting. My previous post presented an overall context for any discussion on headship and submission, namely that head=boss, leader, the authority figure, contradicts the overarching principle taught by Jesus.

    Lexicons are fine. We need them. But just as we would miss the theme of a newspaper article by reading and analysing each word one by one with a dictionary, to take a position based solely on the meaning of a word such as 'submission', without reference to it's function within the wider themes of both Scripture and how each author 'packages' that word will lead to incomplete understanding. Thus the starting point must be Christ's words (and example) of "not lording over as the Gentiles do". Paul in Ephesians follows that principle by linking a wife's submission to her husband's self sacrificing, self emptying love. What woman in her right mind would object to that!

    John
    NZ
     
  14. JRSut1000

    JRSut1000 Newbie no more!

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    Too many men expect of women? Hmm, I see mostly sermons in pulpits that bash the husbands for not loving his wife properly. I rarely see any sermons directed to women.
     
  15. chaz345

    chaz345 New Member

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    Exactly. Glad it's not purely a male versus female perception thing.
     
  16. chaz345

    chaz345 New Member

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    I disagree that what you describe here is how leadership is normally defined.
     
  17. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Actually there is a sound exegetical basis for that view. The Greek word 'kephale' we translate as 'head' was not customarily used as an equivalent of 'boss' in biblical times. There were many Greek words for people who were - words we translate as 'ruler' 'governor' 'master' 'commander' for example. Throughout the NT the only words used for people with recognised authority in the new community came from the lower levels of society, such as 'shepherd', 'servant' 'labourer'.

    In Roman society the recognised social order beneath the ruling class was patronage, then business ownership, then begging then working with ones' hands. When Paul stated that's what he did to avoid being a burden on the church at Corinth he was identifying himself as among the 'lowest level of society, a social disgrace!

    John
    NZ

    '
     
  18. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    :thumbsup:

    and this reminds me of a memorable post here on "Husband as 'Head' Part Six --'Kephale'. We hear the word "HEAD" through our own filters. It did not mean "boss, leader, master, authority" to Paul and the ancients reading his Greek. Here is a clip:

    [​IMG]


    In English the word head has a multitude of meanings. However, two are most common.
    1. the round thing on top of the neck, or 2. the one in authority, the leader, the boss.
    1. My head hurts. My head is too big for this hat. Low clearance--Watch you head.
    2. He is the head of this department. Will you head up the committee? She is the head of the women's ministry ministry.

    But that is in English. What is the word in Greek? It is KEPHALE (English transliteration. I don't have Greek fonts so that will have to do.) The picture above is there to remind us that kephale is a literal head. Kephale is not the word Paul uses when he wants to say authority.

    Some of us have heard, read, and been taught that the husband is the head so he is the leader for so long that it is very difficult to read that scripture passage any other way. I don't think I'm the only one who would struggle with this. So I have chosen a word that means a human head. Let's use noggin. I'm not trying to be silly. It is the best word I could come up with


    If we read "The husband is the noggin of the wife, just as Christ is the noggin of the church..." we would likely understand that noggin was a metaphor. A metaphor is never literal; it is an emblem, a symbol. We would know that the husband is not the wife's literal head (noggin), nor is Christ the literal head (noggin) of the Church. ​
    And if anyone is academically interested in the meaning of kephale in its Ancient historical context, here's a good paper: Toward an Understanding of Ancient Conceptions of “Head” (pdf)
     
  19. dallasapple

    dallasapple New Member

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    Where do you live and what church do you go to and why on earth do you continue going to it?I have seen NO such a thing as ANY sermon that "bashes" men OR women...and I see and hear and read sermons and instruction FREQUENTLY on women submitting and men being in authority and all about how women are to be..Proverbrs 31 is discussed here FREQUENTLY for one..

    I think what it is the men themselves are ADMITTING they are clueless as to what the heck is going on ..then it they hear an instruction directed at them they get all up in a huff and start crying they are getting picked on and say "what about her"?Women are supposed to be the sensitive ones?

    Read Genesis..its old news..

    Um ..but God it was that WOMAN that made me do it..:doh:

    Waht was God bashing Adam too?

    Dallas
     
  20. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    and


    Jesus came to lift us up to sit beside Him in heavenly places (Eph 2:6; Rev 3:21). He is not interested in "ruling" us. He is interested in LOVING us and having a relationship with us.

    The kind of leadership you describe in those quotes McScribe is uplifting to the spouse and puts their relationship with Christ first- (I love that you allow "correct one another in love" because that should be part of a good marriage IMO)

    But I wonder if we could substitute "wives" for your "husbands"? Personally, I would love to see my husband's deep relationship with God guiding him. Does that make me the "head"? :p

    Another issue is, with all the popular teaching about husband authority and husband as prophet priest and king, etc, etc etc.... do you think there may be a problem of sensitive Christian men like yourself, getting paralyzed by the burden of all their supposed "spiritual responsibility" for their wife's spiritual condition/choices?

     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
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