Is there anybody in Heaven?

[zeke37]

No it's not...explain me how it's figurative?

see the following posts in this thread

12,16,26,33,37,40,46,47,50

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

Ignore him, Mr. King. If he can't prove his point using Scriptures, there's nothing to debate. His opinion is not on the level of scripture.

 

[ivebeenshown]

1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He comes with them as his armies. In Revelation 19, the armies, which are the bride clothed in fine white linen, follow Christ to battle. But those which are asleep will rise at that time the trumpet sounds.

 

[graymonkey]

I don't follow. Paul clearly states that the man went to the third Heaven, which is where God resides. The first Heaven is the atmosphere. The second is outer space. The third is where God actually resides.

"4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

This once again, ends the debate. He went to Heaven. The bible does not contradict itself. You just have to correct your interpretation of other scriptures.

Couldn't you say he had a vision of heaven? He obviously didn't stay there did he?

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

Couldn't you say he had a vision of heaven? He obviously didn't stay there did he?

You are correct.

2Cr 12:2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows.
2Cr 12:3And I know that this man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-
2Cr 12:4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

 

[NJBeliever]

Couldn't you say he had a vision of heaven? He obviously didn't stay there did he?

No, I cannot. Because there is nothing grammatically, contextually or logically to support that. You cannot just take those three verses and say it was a vision, when there is nothing in the passage that states that. It's just not proper Biblical interpretation.

The fact that Paul does not know if the person went to Heaven in his body or not, is not indicative of it being a vision. It's indicative that Paul was not certain if this man was caught up to Heaven in his body or not. Anything else is just blatantly adding to Scripture.

 

[NJBeliever]

You are correct.

2Cr 12:2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows.
2Cr 12:3And I know that this man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-
2Cr 12:4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

Again, no part of this passage indicates that the man had a vision of heaven. It specifically says that he was "caught up" to third heaven, using the same Greek verb, harpazo for the rapture. Calling this is a vision, is just reading in what you want to be there. The text just doesn't say this.

 

[zeke37]

see the following posts in this thread

12,16,26,33,37,40,46,47,50

Ignore him, Mr. King. If he can't prove his point using Scriptures, there's nothing to debate. His opinion is not on the level of scripture.

he asked a question....I answered with scripture and scripture references and post references

my understanding is based on scripture friend.

let's let Mr. King speak for himself, to which I am sure he will!

 

[Mikecpking]

"in the graves" is just a figurative way of saying dead

the fact remains that God returns with them that have died in Christ,
from heaven to the earth in 1Thes 4:13-18

and the fact is that we have declarations made in the 5th seal and in Rev12 which show the dead in heaven

and the fact remains that the angel that showed John the Rev17-22 chapters,
was a brethren and a prophet

the fact remains that Lazarus died, and was resurected...and we have a teaching of Christ dealing with the death of Lazarus

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are alive today, not dead in the ground
Our God is God of the Living, not the dead

Abraham, Isaac and Jacb are certainly not walking the earth at the moment, the last time I checked. The resurrection will not happen until the last day:

John 6:

39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" 43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day

Being in agreement with scripture means that we don't quote scripture against scripture, nor do we put in ideas and concepts and read into scripture something else that scripture does not mean.

Everyone who dies will be raised at the last day, so if Jesus said that God is the God of the living, it can only mean that being an overlap in the future coming kingdom of God and not a present state.

 

[Zadok7000]

Abraham, Isaac and Jacb are certainly not walking the earth at the moment, the last time I checked.

And yet our Lord said they were alive 2,000 years ago...

 

[Mikecpking]

And yet our Lord said they were alive 2,000 years ago...

Hence the overlap. God's timing is outside ours. To the dead, the next blink of the eye is at the end of time, at the resurrection and we will be there altogether. To us on earth, it looks like they are still in the grave, "asleep".
The Hebrews believed that a dead person becomes a 'rephaim' (the weak) in sheol (Psalm 88, Job3) until the resurrection. That was their dwelling place.
The general resurection has not happened yet. King David was still buried, and he had not ascended to heaven and he has not come out of his grave until now. (Actws 2:29-34). But to God, we will be given an immortal, incorruptable resurrection body and live with him for ever.

The core, central belief of the Christian faith is the resurrection of the dead, not the immortality of the soul.

 

[Zadok7000]

Hence the overlap. God's timing is outside ours. To the dead, the next blink of the eye is at the end of time, at the resurrection and we will be there altogether. To us on earth, it looks like they are still in the grave, "asleep".
The Hebrews believed that a dead person becomes a 'rephaim' (the weak) in sheol (Psalm 88, Job3) until the resurrection. That was their dwelling place.
The general resurection has not happened yet. King David was still buried, and he had not ascended to heaven and he has not come out of his grave until now. (Actws 2:29-34). But to God, we will be given an immortal, incorruptable resurrection body and live with him for ever.

The core, central belief of the Christian faith is the resurrection of the dead, not the immortality of the soul.

You don't realize it, but like the Saudcees of old, you are denying the resurrection of the dead. They are already with Him TODAY.

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die...So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption...It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

No flesh bodies are coming out of any graves. To believe that is to be deceived.

 

[Mikecpking]

You don't realize it, but like the Saudcees of old, you are denying the resurrection of the dead. They are already with Him TODAY.

What! The resurrection (general) of the dead has not happened yet. Jesus has not had his 2nd coming so the last day as spoken of in John chapter 6 has not arrived yet. It is you who does not believe in the resurrection of the dead, because if we go straight to heaven upon death, what is the point of a general resurrection as described in 1 Corinthians 15?

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die...So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption...It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If you read on, you will get:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

This is obviously a simultaneous moment at "at the trumpet absolutely in line with Jesus' own words in John 6:44
John 6:44 (New International Version)

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

No flesh bodies are coming out of any graves. To believe that is to be deceived.

I never said anything about 'flesh bodies' so please do not put false arguments in the way. You need to grasp the resurrection is on the last day and we have got there yet. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are considered to be among the living, just as anyone else who dies before Parousia and are saved. But in the meantime, they are dead and the grave (sheol). I highlighted this in red in your own quote that they are "considered alive".

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

No flesh bodies are coming out of any graves. To believe that is to be deceived.

Should we believe you or the Word of God?


Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[Zadok7000]

Should we believe you or the Word of God?

Dust to dust.

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

Dust to dust.

So, apparently you don't believe that even Christ came out of the grave, raised from the dead.

 

[the.Sheepdog]

"Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-for we walk by faith, not by sight-we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

When a Christian dies, their soul goes immediately to heaven. Those souls will not be joined with their resurrected bodies until they are caught up together with those who are alive to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 413-18).

In Christ,
Tracey

Yes Tracey! When we are called up those who are dead will be called first meaning their perfect bodies will be united with their spirit in heaven then a milisecond or so later the living will be raised and changed into our perfected bodies.

David is with the Lord even now!

 

[Zadok7000]

What! The resurrection (general) of the dead has not happened yet. Jesus has not had his 2nd coming so the last day as spoken of in John chapter 6 has not arrived yet. It is you who does not believe in the resurrection of the dead, because if we go straight to heaven upon death, what is the point of a general resurrection as described in 1 Corinthians 15?

If you read on, you will get:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Paul differentiates between those still in the flesh at the time of the Return and those already "asleep". See 1 Thes. 4:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
"Bring with Him" because they are with Him already in heaven.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
"Prevent" = proceed. Meaning those "dead in Christ" already have been changed. Who do you think the white linen wearing "armies in heaven" are in Rev. 19:14 that come with Him?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
And so they have. Until the 7th Trump when those still in the flesh are changed to join them.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"As the angels". All in their Spiritual Bodies.

 

[Zadok7000]

So, apparently you don't believe that even Christ came out of the grave, raised from the dead.

Your streak of wrong continues!

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

Your streak of wrong continues!

Does it? This isn't wrong, is it?

Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


How about this? Is this wrong?


1 Cor 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Or this?

1Cr 15:13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.