Is there anybody in Heaven?

[Mikecpking]

So basically, you're trying to say John saw their blood. That just doesn't follow grammatically. Their blood were given robes??? Seriously? There is no logical reason to define souls as "blood" in this passage. Not to mention none of the blood in Leviticus, is in Heaven, which is the relevant point. Human blood could not even enter Heaven until it is glorified. But your soul can. And they are in soul form, under the altar. Not to mention, as stated, that you blur the words "sleep" and "Rest".

And then of course we see the entire church n Heaven in Revelation 7. Wearing said robes.

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever to to indicate that Elijah was just moved to another place on Earth.



So where are you trying to say that Enoch is?



But the point is that someone was in the Third Heaven, specifically. You, once again, have no warrant to say "it was a vision." Paul said the person was in the third Heaven. That ends the debate.

There is no soul sleep.

Luke 16: 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

The beggar did not go to sleep. He was carried away by angels. Why was he not snoozing comfortably in his grave?? Because there is no soul sleep.

Matthew 22: 31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all alive. The only thing on Earth is their bodies.

Philipians 3: 20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The word "conversation" here means citizenship. We are citizens from Heaven once we are saved. The only thing that needs to be resurrected IS YOUR BODY. When you are Born Again, you already have a new spirit. That can already enter Heaven. It's your body that cannot.

1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

This was the whole point of Jesus dying for us. Jesus defeated death and the grave. Anyone who believes in Him will not taste death. Our bodies will "sleep" awaiting the resurrection, but our souls will never be in the grave. Our born again spirit is sinless in Christ. Our born again spirit is already free from the law in Christ. It happens at the moment you are saved. Please, for those who are considering this incorrect doctrine of "soul sleep", please just consider what Jesus promises in the Gospels. You have eternal life (which means you do not die until the rapture). Believe in Christ today and enjoy eternal life today. I know I am!

What is the point of resurrection if we fly either to heaven or hell upon death?

Indeed, the 'souls under the alter' is purely figurative (picture language) as the definition of soul is literlaly the blood, and you cannot deny scripture

DET 12:23 For the soul (nephesh) of a creature is the blood.

Then Rev 6:9 makes sense, especially when you compare Geneses 4:10 when God 'heard' Abel's blood crying from the ground.

The Hebrews certainly did not believe in dualism, to them, there was no such thing as a disembodied soul and at death, the soul (actually life would be a better definition) died at physical death

Judges 16:30
Numbers 23:10
Ezekiel 18:4

'Soul sleep' is a misnoma as the status of a dead person is 'dust' in the grave (dan 12:2 and they are called 'rephaim' whose dwelling is sheol (psalm 88, Job 3) where the dead awqait resurrection.

Clearly, Luke 16 is a parable, because, by then through contact with Babylonian and Greek philosophy and I quote from the Jewish encyclopaedia

The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8). As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2


Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL

Jesus was using the popular rabbinical teaching of the day to bring a point against the Pharisees who were present there at the time, not teaching about the afterlife.​

 

[zeke37]

i've heard this argument before.
folks tend to think of "spirit" as soul.

the spirit, what houses our intellect, goes to heaven at death.
the spirit exists in a spiritual body like the angels have.
an incorruptible one.


the dead exist there, in heaven, until it is time to come back here.
the spirits of some, including their spirit bodies, are raised here at the gathering.

they will exist here on earth in those spirit bodies for the Millennium.

 

[Mikecpking]

i've heard this argument before.
folks tend to think of "spirit" as soul.

the spirit, what houses our intellect, goes to heaven at death.
the spirit exists in a spiritual body like the angels have.
an incorruptible one.


the dead exist there, in heaven, until it is time to come back here.
the spirits of some, including their spirit bodies, are raised here at the gathering.

they will exist here on earth in those spirit bodies for the Millennium.

Hi Zeke,
While its true the human ruach afftect the moral choices, to the Hebrew, the centre of conciousness is the heart (leb), not the ruach. Human ruach in physical terms is breath (Gen 2:7) and at death, we return to dust (Gen 3:19) and the 'breath' (Nesemah) that God gave us goes back to God (ecclesiastes 12:7. The 'breath' (spirit) is not us, the bible clearly states we are in the grave:

Dan 12:2

John 5:28

Acts 2:29-34

1 cor 15.

 

[zeke37]

to each their own I guess

 

[Zadok7000]

yet the fact remains: flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven

And it never has and never will. Those who have died: a. their flesh returns to dust and b. their spirit (soul) goes to heaven. Relevant scriptures already posted.

 

[Zadok7000]

Interesting. Do you have any scriptual support for your position?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

 

[Zadok7000]

If there is nobody in heaven, who are the "dead in Christ" that He returns with?

 

[Mikecpking]

And it never has and never will. Those who have died: a. their flesh returns to dust and b. their spirit (soul) goes to heaven. Relevant scriptures already posted.

Hi,
Spirit and soul are not the same. There are no scriptures to suggest that there are souls in heaven or ascending to heaven..period!

 

[Mikecpking]

If there is nobody in heaven, who are the "dead in Christ" that He returns with?

The ones he calls out from the grave in John 5:28.

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus was very clear where people are..in their graves!

Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

The book of Daniel was clear where people are in death!

Acts 2:29-34 (New International Version)


29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand

Peter was very clear where David was and is...


Spirit as in the human spirit is the breath of life, nothing to do with the Hebrew idea of soul

Here are the definitions:

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Psyche - Soul[/FONT]
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Ruah - Pneuma - Spirit[/FONT]
This 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
• for the wind in nature.
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']• for the nature of God's being ['Spirit of God', 'Holy Spirit']; dynamic, [FONT='Times New Roman','serif']overwhelming, at times completely dominating [Jg 6:34], the root of prophesying [ISam 10:5-6] and abnormal strength [Jg 14:6][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']• for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
• for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Leb - Kardia - Heart[/FONT]
'Leb' is a 'window - word' that looks in at personhood in terms of deepest emotions and from the perspective of intellect and will. 'Leb', in some ways, draws together every spiritual process. It is'conscious spiritual activity'.
It was early recognised that emotions and intense feelings produce physical effects in the heart [slow, quick, intermittent pulse rates, sometimes strong pain]. So it has come to picture the epicentre of the human person as an emotional being. Other bodily organs have been drawn alongside to add other facets to this idea:-
• Kidneys: the unfathomable depths of an individual, centre of emotions that only God can search out and test [Jer 11:20; 12:2; Isa 29:13].
• Bowels: emotions that can be deeply agitated; seething fermenting, troubling [Job 30:27; Lam 1:20].
• Inwards-Belly: emphasising the unique character of human spiritual nature in contrast to the external world [Phil 3:19; Jn 7:38].
• Bones: the basic structural element in man; spiritually and emotionally as
well as physically [Ps 35:10; Pr 3:8], they suffer seismic shock in emotional distress [Jer 23:9].
The other very important emphasis of 'leb' is personhood in terms of their inner direction; the deliberate conscious activity of the will and the responsibility it brings.
What comes from an individuals heart is 'the distinct property of the whole person' making them responsible for it. The 'responsible will' is central to the biblical concept of the 'heart'. Making God's will our own requires a new heart [Ezk 36:26].
Paul in his writings uses 'kardia' with all the senses of the Hebrew 'leb', but enlarges it by the introduction of two other words that emphasis 'will' and ' responsibilities':-
• Mind [nous]: human intellectual capacity [Phil 4:7] which may be good or bad. It may be immoral, vain, corrupt defiled [Rm 1:28; Eph 4:17]. It contains God's law [Rm 7:23] and in a Christian is renewed transforming life [Rm 12:2], imparting the mind of Christ [ICor 2:16].
• Conscience [suneidessis]: human faculty for moral judgment. It can be defiled [ICor 8:7] or pure [ITim 3:9]. It is that consciousness of 'being right within one's heart' [Rm2:15].
So 'leb' is conscious spiritual activity, stressing the sense of responsibility.
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Contrast : Nephesh, Ruah, Leb[/FONT]
It will be quite clear that 'nephesh', 'ruah', and 'leb' overlap one another at significant points.
The distinctions between 'nephesh' and 'leb' at the higher level of understanding is very difficult. They are often used interchangeably [cf Ex 6:9 with Jg 16:16; Ecc 7:8 with Job 6:11], and yet they are not the same. The distinction is found back at their roots.
The overlap between all three is to be expected when we remember each is considering the whole man from a slightly different angle. Their contrasting stresses may be seen as:-
• Nephesh : instinctive 'animal' activity.
• Leb : conscious spiritual activity.
• Ruah : personhood open to the influence of the nature of God.
'Nephesh' and 'leb' stand in contrast with 'ruah' between them. 'Nephesh' and 'ruah' stress the 'lower' and 'higher' levels of consciousness.

 

[zeke37]

"in the graves" is just a figurative way of saying dead

the fact remains that God returns with them that have died in Christ,
from heaven to the earth in 1Thes 4:13-18

and the fact is that we have declarations made in the 5th seal and in Rev12 which show the dead in heaven

and the fact remains that the angel that showed John the Rev17-22 chapters,
was a brethren and a prophet

the fact remains that Lazarus died, and was resurected...and we have a teaching of Christ dealing with the death of Lazarus

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are alive today, not dead in the ground
Our God is God of the Living, not the dead

 

[Mr. King]

"in the graves" is just a figurative way of saying dead

the fact remains that God returns with them that have died in Christ,
from heaven to the earth in 1Thes 4:13-18

and the fact is that we have declarations made in the 5th seal and in Rev12 which show the dead in heaven

and the fact remains that the angel that showed John the Rev17-22 chapters,
was a brethren and a prophet

the fact remains that Lazarus died, and was resurected...and we have a teaching of Christ dealing with the death of Lazarus

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are alive today, not dead in the ground
Our God is God of the Living, not the dead

No, its not figurative. You can't interpret scripture like that; you're not supposed to create your own definitions. Scripture defines and interprets itself, there's no need to guess on what something means. It's clear from the other verses that "in the graves," means in the earth.

 

[NJBeliever]

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. - 2 Corinthians 12:2

That's it. Again, this is the third time I am mentioning this. This verse by itself ends any debate. Is anyone in Heaven? Yeah, this guy.

 

[zeke37]

No, its not figurative.

sure it is

You can't interpret scripture like that;

sure I can

you're not supposed to create your own definitions.

but we are to divide scripture properly, without contradiction.
have you read the entire thread?

Scripture defines and interprets itself,

absolutely

there's no need to guess on what something means.

I agree again...I am not guessing...the scriptures are clear.

It's clear from the other verses that "in the graves," means in the earth.

good for it...it is still figurative and not literal

dust to dust

we have something much better in store...and it is not flesh...

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

Christ died, was buried, his body rose in glorified form and he ascended to heaven.

Our body will be like his body, just as scriptures say. We are waiting for the redemption of our bodies, at the moment of the return of Christ/the coming of our salvation.

Bodies will actually rise, just like Christ's did. Graves will actually open, just like Christ's did. They will be changed to a glorified (immortal, imperishable) form (all at the same time, at that moment in time) and we will all be caught up to the throne of God, just like Christ was.

Phl 3:20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Phl 3:21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

1Jo 3:2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

 

[zeke37]

you are free to believe that if you wish, but it is not so

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

The division lines are becoming clearer and clearer.

 

[zeke37]

ok Jen

 

[Mr. King]

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. - 2 Corinthians 12:2

That's it. Again, this is the third time I am mentioning this. This verse by itself ends any debate. Is anyone in Heaven? Yeah, this guy.

That doesn't prove anything...this one verse apparantly contradicts all the other verses. However, scripture does not contradict itself...we all know this. So the key words in this verse are "third heaven." What do these words mean? If it was heaven, don't you think it would have said that?

 

[Mr. King]

good for it...it is still figurative and not literal

dust to dust

we have something much better in store...and it is not flesh...

No it's not...explain me how it's figurative?

 

[NJBeliever]

That doesn't prove anything...this one verse apparantly contradicts all the other verses. However, scripture does not contradict itself...we all know this. So the key words in this verse are "third heaven." What do these words mean? If it was heaven, don't you think it would have said that?

I don't follow. Paul clearly states that the man went to the third Heaven, which is where God resides. The first Heaven is the atmosphere. The second is outer space. The third is where God actually resides.

"4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

This once again, ends the debate. He went to Heaven. The bible does not contradict itself. You just have to correct your interpretation of other scriptures.