Is there anybody in Heaven?

[CryptoLutheran]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Paul, at no point in his description of the future resurrection, speaks of a dichotomy between a "physical body" and a "spiritual body". Paul specifically differentiates between a psuchekos soma (soul-powered body) and a pneumatikos soma (spirit-powered body).

The difference is not physical vs spiritual or matter vs spirit; the difference is an operating or "animating" principle that governs the body. The present body is "soulish", we are governed by "psuche" or "soul"; the future body is governed by "pneuma" or "spirit". I would posit that "pneuma" in this case is not an abstract "spirit" or "spiritual" but rather that in the resurrection we are, in our very bodies, animated or enlivened by the Holy Spirit.

Some uses of pneumatikos

Romans 1:11 "...that I may impart to you some spiritual (pneumatikos) gift..."

Romans 7:14 "...the law is spiritual (pneumatikos) but I am carnal (sarkikos)..."

Romans 15:27 "...For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual (pneumatikos) things..."

Some uses of psuchekos

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural (psuchekos) man..."

James 3:15 "This wisdom descends not from above but is earthly (psuchekos)..."

Jude 19 "...they who separate themselves, sensual (psuchekos), having not the Spirit"

Paul is not speaking of two bodies distinguished by substance (one material/physical and the other immaterial/spiritual) but rather that the body (soma) now is "soulish", it is "soul-powered" the body (soma) then is "spiritual" it is "Spirit-powered" (Romans 8:11).

The body, this body, is raised up. That's why he says it is sown and then it is raised; it's corruptible (subject to decay) but it is raised incorruptible (not subject to decay). The body is raised up, it is transformed, it is changed "in the twinkling of an eye". This body is raised up, changed, transformed, not from material to immaterial, but from being subject to the base instincts and lusts of base animal life, and to sin and death to being subject to the quickening power of God, in the image of the Risen Christ, no longer slaving under sin and death.

The present body and the resurrection body are both bodies, physical, material, fleshy and solid; when our Lord Jesus was raised from the dead He specifically told His disciples that He was flesh and bone, not ethereal and immaterial. He invited Thomas to feel the wounds in His hands and side. He is the first-fruits of the resurrection, ours will be as His. This body will be raised up, glorified, transfigured and transformed in the same way that Christ was.

This isn't some "radical" idea either: this is basic, ordinary, traditional Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zeke37]

The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible. It is translated from several different words with various meanings as indicated below:
In the Old Testament:
31 times from the Hebrew “Sheol,” which means “the grave”
In the New Testament:
10 times from the Greek “Hades,” which means “the grave”
12 times from the Greek “Gehenna,” which means “a place of burning”
1 time from the Greek “Tartarus,” which means “a place of darkness”
“Tartarus” is used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames.
“Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:29-30, described in Matthew 13:40-42 and 2 Peter 3:7.) Note these flames are still in the future at the end of the world.
“Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). The body of Jesus rested there and His saints are resting there now awaiting the resurrection.
The Greek word “Hades” is translated as “Hell” in many English Bibles such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death and Hell [Hades].” It does the same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles use the word “Hades” itself, such as the New International Version, which translates both Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here is the point; In Revelation 20:14 “Hades” (“Hell&#8221 is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” So as you can therefore see, “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire” (hell fire).

Death is clearly sleep:
Job 14:12 The dead “shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep” until “the heavens be no more.”
Psalms 13:3 “Lest I sleep the sleep of death.”
Daniel 12:2 “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”
Acts 7:60 When Stephen died, “he fell asleep.”
John 11:11-14 “Lazarus sleeps … Jesus spoke of his death.”
1 Corinthians 11:30; 15:6, 18, 51 Paul said death was “sleep.”
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 Those “which sleep in Jesus” will be resurrected

sleep is clearly a metaphore for death

The dead are unconscious:
Psalms 115:17 “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.”
Psalms 146:4 When a man dies, “in that very day his thoughts perish.”
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “The dead know not anything.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10 “There is no work... nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.”

the dead do nothing from earth...
but certainly the dead do things in heaven, like worship the Lord



8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.




10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

All Believers will be Resurrected when Jesus Christ Returns:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “The Lord himself shall descend ... the dead ... shall rise ... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 The saints cry out, “0 death, where is thy sting” when they are resurrected at the second coming of Jesus.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

John 14:1-3 Jesus will take us to heaven when He “comes again.”

that passage does not teach that,
it teaches that Christ prepared a place for us in heaven.
it applies to all of us over all time.

it is those that get to that resting place in heaven,
that return here with Him when He comes

1 Corinthians 15:12-23 Paul says there is a resurrection of both Christ and the dead, “but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”

and so it is...
the dead are "raised" to life here on earth again, in the angelic body they inhabbit in heaven.
that is how they come with Him in 1Cor15:35 and 1Thes4:14.

and more proof is shown with the angel in Rev19/22

The resurrection occurs when Jesus arrives, that is when we go to heaven.

we go to heaven at death, and we are raised back here AGAIN at His Coming...
or if we are alive at that time, we are changed to be like them coming from heaven,
and gathered together with them...


we stay here.

 

[UpperEschelon]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Paul, at no point in his description of the future resurrection, speaks of a dichotomy between a "physical body" and a "spiritual body". Paul specifically differentiates between a psuchekos soma (soul-powered body) and a pneumatikos soma (spirit-powered body).

The difference is not physical vs spiritual or matter vs spirit; the difference is an operating or "animating" principle that governs the body. The present body is "soulish", we are governed by "psuche" or "soul"; the future body is governed by "pneuma" or "spirit". I would posit that "pneuma" in this case is not an abstract "spirit" or "spiritual" but rather that in the resurrection we are, in our very bodies, animated or enlivened by the Holy Spirit.

Some uses of pneumatikos

Romans 1:11 "...that I may impart to you some spiritual (pneumatikos) gift..."

Romans 7:14 "...the law is spiritual (pneumatikos) but I am carnal (sarkikos)..."

Romans 15:27 "...For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual (pneumatikos) things..."

Some uses of psuchekos

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural (psuchekos) man..."

James 3:15 "This wisdom descends not from above but is earthly (psuchekos)..."

Jude 19 "...they who separate themselves, sensual (psuchekos), having not the Spirit"

Paul is not speaking of two bodies distinguished by substance (one material/physical and the other immaterial/spiritual) but rather that the body (soma) now is "soulish", it is "soul-powered" the body (soma) then is "spiritual" it is "Spirit-powered" (Romans 8:11).

The body, this body, is raised up. That's why he says it is sown and then it is raised; it's corruptible (subject to decay) but it is raised incorruptible (not subject to decay). The body is raised up, it is transformed, it is changed "in the twinkling of an eye". This body is raised up, changed, transformed, not from material to immaterial, but from being subject to the base instincts and lusts of base animal life, and to sin and death to being subject to the quickening power of God, in the image of the Risen Christ, no longer slaving under sin and death.

The present body and the resurrection body are both bodies, physical, material, fleshy and solid; when our Lord Jesus was raised from the dead He specifically told His disciples that He was flesh and bone, not ethereal and immaterial. He invited Thomas to feel the wounds in His hands and side. He is the first-fruits of the resurrection, ours will be as His. This body will be raised up, glorified, transfigured and transformed in the same way that Christ was.

This isn't some "radical" idea either: this is basic, ordinary, traditional Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, the real significance of that passage may just be a question of understanding the root Greek words, but ultimately my conclusion means the same thing. Incorruptible = glorified body. Thus according to Paul, the glorified bodies are received at the coming of Christ.

Thanks for this bit of information, really interesting.

 

[Husky7]

and so it is...
the dead are "raised" to life here on earth again, in the angelic body they inhabbit in heaven.
that is how they come with Him in 1Cor15:35 and 1Thes4:14.

and more proof is shown with the angel in Rev19/22


we go to heaven at death, and we are raised back here AGAIN at His Coming...
or if we are alive at that time, we are changed to be like them coming from heaven,
and gathered together with them...


we stay here.

That honestly makes no sense.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. -1 Corinthians 15:51-53

1 Corinthians says that the risen dead will be raised incorruptable/and immortal (with a heavely body,(spirit body). This takes place at the "last trumpet," or Christ's second coming. If we go to heaven immediately after death, and our bodies are transformed at that time, then who is being risen at the end of time when Christ returns? We cannot go to heaven and be changed, and then suddenly change bodies again when Christ returns...that doesn't make any sense. Your theory contradicts scripture my friend.

 

[zeke37]

That honestly makes no sense.

sure it does...the dead COME WITH HIM from heaven to be raised here again...

see verse 35

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. -1 Corinthians 15:51-53

1 Corinthians says that the risen dead will be raised incorruptable/and immortal (with a heavely body,(spirit body). This takes place at the "last trumpet," or Christ's second coming.

that is because they come from heaven in that spiritual body
no problem

If we go to heaven immediately after death,

which we do

and our bodies are transformed at that time,

which they are

then who is being risen at the end of time when Christ returns?

the dead that come with Him from heaven...
as verse 1Cor15:35 shows, and 1Thes4:14 shows

the "raising" is not from nothingness...
but rather the raising is when the Lord comes here,
bringing their spiritual/heavenly bodies here to earth,
so they can live on earth again...

We cannot go to heaven and be changed, and then suddenly change bodies again when Christ returns...that doesn't make any sense.

sure it does...
when we die, we exist in heaven, in a spiritual body like the angels have
when Christ returns, He brings those spiritual bodied believers with Him
and those (previously dead to the earth but alive in heaven) are "raised" here...

it makes perfect sense

Your theory contradicts scripture my friend.

according to you and your denom's way of thinking, that you grew up in,

but that's OK with me...
I know what I believe and why

you cannot dispute the proofs of scripture that has already been given in this thread supporting concious existance after death, in heaven



sleep is a metaphore, ie. sleep from life on earth

but those that are figuratively "sleeping" are literally alive in heaven doing things
and waiting to return here again

 

[UpperEschelon]

sure it does...the dead COME WITH HIM from heaven to be raised here again...

see verse 35



that is because they come from heaven in that spiritual body
no problem


which we do


which they are


the dead that come with Him from heaven...
as verse 1Cor15:35 shows, and 1Thes4:14 shows

the "raising" is not from nothingness...
but rather the raising is when the Lord comes here,
bringing their spiritual/heavenly bodies here to earth,
so they can live on earth again...


sure it does...
when we die, we exist in heaven, in a spiritual body like the angels have
when Christ returns, He brings those spiritual bodied believers with Him
and those (previously dead to the earth but alive in heaven) are "raised" here...

it makes perfect sense


according to you and your denom's way of thinking, that you grew up in,

but that's OK with me...
I know what I believe and why

you cannot dispute the proofs of scripture that has already been given in this thread supporting concious existance after death, in heaven



sleep is a metaphore, ie. sleep from life on earth

but those that are figuratively "sleeping" are literally alive in heaven doing things
and waiting to return here again

Yea...but scripture does not confirm the dead in Christ gaining a body except at the Second Coming. This is the proof of scripture.

 

[Husky7]

sure it does...the dead COME WITH HIM from heaven to be raised here again...

see verse 35



that is because they come from heaven in that spiritual body
no problem


which we do


which they are


the dead that come with Him from heaven...
as verse 1Cor15:35 shows, and 1Thes4:14 shows

the "raising" is not from nothingness...
but rather the raising is when the Lord comes here,
bringing their spiritual/heavenly bodies here to earth,
so they can live on earth again...


sure it does...
when we die, we exist in heaven, in a spiritual body like the angels have
when Christ returns, He brings those spiritual bodied believers with Him
and those (previously dead to the earth but alive in heaven) are "raised" here...

it makes perfect sense


according to you and your denom's way of thinking, that you grew up in,

but that's OK with me...
I know what I believe and why

you cannot dispute the proofs of scripture that has already been given in this thread supporting concious existance after death, in heaven



sleep is a metaphore, ie. sleep from life on earth

but those that are figuratively "sleeping" are literally alive in heaven doing things
and waiting to return here again

Well, I disagree. Scripture says differently, however I can see that all the evidence in the world isn't going to change your mind, so believe what you want.

 

[Super Kal]

well, honestly, zeke... after reading the scripture you poasted, I dont see it...

you posted v14
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

it doesn't say anywhere in that verse that they're in heaven... that's an assumption... it simply says God will bring those who sleep in Jesus, and that's it. It doesn't say where they are.

1 Cor. 15:35
But someone will say "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"

again, nothing in this verse says that they're in heaven right now... this is all based on a presumption

 

[trialbyfire]

Amen, guys! I'm lovin' the scriptural proofs!

 

[zeke37]

Yea...but scripture does not confirm the dead in Christ gaining a body except at the Second Coming. This is the proof of scripture.

Well, I disagree. Scripture says differently, however I can see that all the evidence in the world isn't going to change your mind, so believe what you want.

what about the scripture about the dead coming from heaven with The Lord?
1Cor15:35, 1Thes4:14

and what about the scripture that Jesus taught the saducees about in Luke 20?


34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
39Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.

and what about the angel in Rev19/22?
It seems clear to me that he was a human being, that was a prophet and a brethren?


8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

well, honestly, zeke... after reading the scripture you poasted, I dont see it...

no problem Kal....
I just brought forth the consideration

you posted v14
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

it doesn't say anywhere in that verse that they're in heaven...




that's an assumption... it simply says God will bring those who sleep in Jesus, and that's it. It doesn't say where they are.

well..I deduce....because....

where is the Lord today?
where does He remain until all His enemies are made His footstool?
where does He depart from in Rev19?

1 Cor. 15:35
But someone will say "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"

again, nothing in this verse says that they're in heaven right now... this is all based on a presumption

it says that they are in a body and that they come...
and we know Who they come with,
and we know where He comes from

Rev19's opening shows the dead in heaven, praising God,
before they are "raised" here...


1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.


even the early believers understood that life in a spiritual body exists after death...
as they thought Peter was dead, and they thought that Peter's angel was present knocking at the door in Acts12


12And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.
13And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
14And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.
15And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

This question goes out to the Futurists.

Is there anyone in Heaven right now,other than the Trinity and angels, if Jesus has not returned?

John 14

2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

John 3
13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

So Jesus says no one has ascended into heaven and since, according to you, He has not returned yet, is there anybody in heaven?

I'm not a Futurist but I think the ascension means being sent directly to the Father. And that no one goes to the Father but through the one who ascended to him, Jesus.

 

[Husky7]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Paul, at no point in his description of the future resurrection, speaks of a dichotomy between a "physical body" and a "spiritual body". Paul specifically differentiates between a psuchekos soma (soul-powered body) and a pneumatikos soma (spirit-powered body).

The difference is not physical vs spiritual or matter vs spirit; the difference is an operating or "animating" principle that governs the body. The present body is "soulish", we are governed by "psuche" or "soul"; the future body is governed by "pneuma" or "spirit". I would posit that "pneuma" in this case is not an abstract "spirit" or "spiritual" but rather that in the resurrection we are, in our very bodies, animated or enlivened by the Holy Spirit.

Some uses of pneumatikos

Romans 1:11 "...that I may impart to you some spiritual (pneumatikos) gift..."

Romans 7:14 "...the law is spiritual (pneumatikos) but I am carnal (sarkikos)..."

Romans 15:27 "...For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual (pneumatikos) things..."

Some uses of psuchekos

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural (psuchekos) man..."

James 3:15 "This wisdom descends not from above but is earthly (psuchekos)..."

Jude 19 "...they who separate themselves, sensual (psuchekos), having not the Spirit"

Paul is not speaking of two bodies distinguished by substance (one material/physical and the other immaterial/spiritual) but rather that the body (soma) now is "soulish", it is "soul-powered" the body (soma) then is "spiritual" it is "Spirit-powered" (Romans 8:11).

The body, this body, is raised up. That's why he says it is sown and then it is raised; it's corruptible (subject to decay) but it is raised incorruptible (not subject to decay). The body is raised up, it is transformed, it is changed "in the twinkling of an eye". This body is raised up, changed, transformed, not from material to immaterial, but from being subject to the base instincts and lusts of base animal life, and to sin and death to being subject to the quickening power of God, in the image of the Risen Christ, no longer slaving under sin and death.

The present body and the resurrection body are both bodies, physical, material, fleshy and solid; when our Lord Jesus was raised from the dead He specifically told His disciples that He was flesh and bone, not ethereal and immaterial. He invited Thomas to feel the wounds in His hands and side. He is the first-fruits of the resurrection, ours will be as His. This body will be raised up, glorified, transfigured and transformed in the same way that Christ was.

This isn't some "radical" idea either: this is basic, ordinary, traditional Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

This isn't relevant to your post, but why in the world do you have the United Nations as your country? Why do you support them?