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Is there anybody in Heaven?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by graymonkey, Sep 6, 2010.

  1. graymonkey

    graymonkey Guest

    This question goes out to the Futurists.

    Is there anyone in Heaven right now,other than the Trinity and angels, if Jesus has not returned?

    John 14

    2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

    John 3
    13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

    So Jesus says no one has ascended into heaven and since, according to you, He has not returned yet, is there anybody in heaven?
     
  2. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    I believe there are many saved sleeping in the dust of the earth -- in the grave. When Jesus returns they as well as the living saved will finally be delivered.
     
  3. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand

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    Graymonkey, the answer is no, but you've already answered by quoting jn 3:13.

    also peter had this to say:

    Acts 2:29 ( NKJV ) 29“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
    Acts 2:34 ( NKJV ) 34“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
    ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    “Sit at My right hand,

    and if anyone should be in heaven by the "popular belief", then to me, it would be david, a man after God's own heart.

    these verses convince me that no man has ascended to heaven.

    however, there are verses that say david will be in the first resurrection:

    Ezekiel 37:23-25 ( NKJV ) 23They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
    24“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

    these verse are talking about a time after Christ's return!
     
  4. graymonkey

    graymonkey Guest

    What about absent from the body present with the Lord?
     
  5. Tractor1

    Tractor1 Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.

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    "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-for we walk by faith, not by sight-we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

    When a Christian dies, their soul goes immediately to heaven. Those souls will not be joined with their resurrected bodies until they are caught up together with those who are alive to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 413-18).

    In Christ,
    Tracey
     
  6. graymonkey

    graymonkey Guest

    But if Jesus has not returned yet they are not in heaven.

    Doesn't Jesus have to return first before anyone can be in heaven?
    see the verses I supplied in original post
     
  7. Tractor1

    Tractor1 Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.

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    Resurrected bodies await the meeting of the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:13-18), but the souls of departed Christians are present with the Lord.

    Again Paul says, "If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary that I will remain, ...(Phil. 1:22-26).

    In Christ,
    Tracey
     
  8. Tractor1

    Tractor1 Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.

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    I was under the impression this forum was for Christians only.

    In Christ,
    Tracey

    From God vs. the Bible. Author: John Armstrong.

    9. Do Deists believe in a divine Jesus?

    No. Historical writings by famous Deists have spoken of the "moral character" of Jesus as if he were an idealistic human being around whom fantastic myths were built (most of them suspiciously similar to pagan analogs that predated Christianity).
    Variant Question: Is it possible to be a Christian Deist?
    No. Neither is it possible to be a Muslim Deist or otherwise mix Deism with any brand of Theism. Theism demands faith in the "truth" of scriptures and religious teachings. Deism emphasizes understanding God through reason and critical thinking. Faith is the suppression of reason and critical thinking. Despite their agreement on the existence of God, Theism and Deism are incompatible world-views.
     
  9. graymonkey

    graymonkey Guest

    The verse says "no one has ascended into heaven." That means no soul/body. Where from scripture can you show me where it says the souls of christians are in heaven before the return of Christ?
     
  10. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

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    Hi Tracey,
    This is a common mistake, but scripture is clear that there is no such thing as 'soul' surviving a dead body:

    Judges 16:30
    Numbers 23:10

    What we as Christians should believe in is the resurrection of the dead, as that what was Paul was refering to, but in the meantime, he lies in the grave with his next waking momnet to be with Christ until the last day (john 5:28, 1 cor 15, Dan 12:2.)
     
  11. Tractor1

    Tractor1 Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.

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    In what sense will Jesus bring with Him those who've fallen asleep (1 Thess. 4:14)?

    Paul declares that when a Christian dies their souls go immediately to heaven (2 Cor. 5:6-8). The believer is either in their physical body living on earth or has left their material body and have gone into Christ's presence. There is no third option, such as purgatorry or "soul sleep." Nowhere does the passage suggest an intermediate state of unconsciousness. Also, while Paul continues at home in the body, he also continues away from home as regards the Lord (present tense); because of this, his fellowship was incomplete (vs. 7). He then goes on to say that a moment of time is coming (aorist) when the situation will be changed and he will be present with the Lord and absent from the body, which is a clear reference to death.

    Further, while on the cross Jesus promised the dying thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). The word paradise is used three times in the New Testament for heaven, where Christ currently resides.

    See also (Phil. 1:21-23). Paul's one desire has a twofold object: departure and being with Christ! If departure didn't mean his immediate being with Christ, another construction would've been used. Therefore, it seems impossible that "soul sleep" was in the mind of the Apostle, since his desire was to enjoy the presence of the Lord.

    Lastly, believers are given the guarantee that nothing, including death, will ever separate them from their Lord (Rom. 8:38-39). This assures them that they are not abandoned at the time of physical death.

    In Christ,
    Tracey
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
    NJBeliever likes this.
  12. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    IMO you are mis-understanding the verses

    John 14, there are many dwelling places in heaven..
    and Christ went to the Father and prepared a resting place for us...
    through Christ, we get rest in God
    .

    John 3, in ACTS 2 the same teaching is given but David is used as an example.
    Not even David reached the Throne of God, iow the Right Hand of God, iow the Power of God.

    only Christ Jesus


    there are already many in heaven today, waiting to come back her with Christ when He comes, and Christ taught just that.
    Lazarus and the rich man, 7 brothers and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob

    the folks in Rev5
    the souls under the altar in Rev6's 6th seal
    the ones in Rev12
    the angel that showed John the vision in Rev22


    there are many more examples
     
  13. graymonkey

    graymonkey Guest

    IMO you have missed the point of my post.

    My point is that according to the verses I posted there cannot be anyone in heaven if Christ has not returned.

    In your reply you did not paste the rest of the verse that I posted. You put in bold many and OK yes there are many but my point was that He said He will come again and receive you to Myself.

    He was talking to those who were standing right in front of Him. So if He has not returned then no one is in heaven right now.

    God Bless
    Jesse
     
  14. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    My Brother, I understood fine...
    whether Christ has or has not returned, there are people in heaven.
    The scriptures I posted should have proven that to you


    if there are many, then what is the problem?
    the good folks in heaven wait there in heaven,
    until the time is right for them to return with Christ to the earth,
    in the future..see 1Thes4:13-17


    I take it you think He already returned?

    Jesus spoke to His disciples, and through His words to them, He spoke to all of us...

    Christ died on the cross, and then came back...He defeated death...

    that defeat made a place of rest possible, for us who believe in Him
     
  15. Husky7

    Husky7 Guest

    Excellent question...
    No, there is not one human soul/being in heaven right now. Everyone who has ever lived, and died, is buried in the ground waiting for Christ's return.
    Read through this for a better understanding of where we go after we die: What Happens When We die - Truth About Death
     
  16. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    consider these Husky


    23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

    24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
    25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
    26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
    27And last of all the woman died also.
    28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
    29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
    30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
    32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
    33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.









    18Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
    19Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
    20Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
    21And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
    22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
    23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
    24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
    25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
    26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
    27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.









    27Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
    28Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
    29There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
    30And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.
    31And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.
    32Last of all the woman died also.
    33Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
    34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
    38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.













    7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
    8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
     
  17. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

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    PHENOMENAL JOB. I agree 100% with every post you have put up in this thread. Thank you so much for just going to the Bible (and not articles on death) and providing clear exposition and analysis of the Scriptures.
     
  18. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

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    Exactly.
     
  19. addo

    addo Senior Member

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    Why are the "fallen asleep" (i.e.: the dead) lost without the resurrection?

    "For if the dead rise not ... then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are lost."
    (1 Cor 15:16-18)
     
  20. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

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    We should always examine Scripture in context:

    13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    The message of this passage is that Christ's resurrection 100% validates the Christian faith. If Christ did not rise from the dead, then the testimony of the apostles are false, because they claimed that they witnessed it. Thus our faith would be in vain, because we believe in a false religion. And thus everyone who died believing in Christ would be doomed if it were the case that Jesus was not resurrected. Because it would mean we have no Savior, no atonement and thus no part with God. We are still enemies of God doomed to destruction and eternal damnation. But... Christ DID rise from the dead. He DID defeat death and the grave and thus, all who have their rest and faith in Him are alive as well.

    21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



    If you die a believer, your soul is with Christ immediately. And you are secure in your salvation and your eventual glorification (when you receive your new body) because He has already done all the necessary work to win this victory for us. It is finished. God bless.