is the soul physical or spiritual?

[GenemZ]

Just what to you think so called Christian scholars can prove? And who are these so called Christian scholars? Are they mainstream college taught folk waving bits of paper saying, "Look at my credentials?" Are they great authors of published works?

Yes... just like he is doing.

Many see through what he is doing. The problem is, to refute certain passages they give would take literally hours of teaching.

I am disappointing you because I refuse to get into their rigged ring.

I can give you a list of great scholars on any subject.... Does that make them right? How about reading some great published works written by Islamic scholars!!!

Thanks. You are winning the argument for me. Might as well add some Islamic scholars to their list, too. You actually make the point I was making as to why what they present as their authorities carry no weight. Want to look to an Islamic scholar to see if Jesus is Deity? They will give you a long list of passages and word studies to show you Jesus was only an inspired man. Same technique as used here.

As you well know, Islamic scholars will give a long list of word studies like we see here. Its all to disprove the Bible as we know it. The Islamic scholars are inspired by evil power. Its not from God. These soul-mates posting here produced what to back up what they claim? One work by an atheist. A work by a sect that is anti Trinity and denies the Deity of Christ. And, another that comes from a denomination that is seeped in law and legalism. That should tell any informed Christian that something is terribly amiss.

He has produce himself.... Deal with him!

My job is as onto the Lord, not men's desires.

Ecclesiastes 3:5-7
"A time to cast away stones and a time to gather
stones together, a time to embrace and a time
to refrain from embracing,

A time to get and a time to lose, a time to keep
and a time to cast away,

A time to rend and a time to sew, a time
to keep silence and a time to speak .





.
​

 

[GenemZ]

Enough to see that you do not!


You think wrong!

“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7

Just to show you there is much more than meets your eye.

The Hebrew does not simply say, "breath of life."
Its in the plural. The Lord breathed into his nostrils the breath of lives.
Did you know that? Do you know why that was said that way?


In the mean time...

God formed man’s body from dust and blew into him a soul
And death is reverse of that process of that
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was
And the spirit shall return to God who gave it
Ecc. 12:7

God does not give us a soul. God gives the human spirit, and then its returned to him after our earthly jouney is over. God did not give our soul. God created our soul not "gave it." Jesus spoke of souls being thrown into the Lake of Fire. God is the Lake of Fire? It returns to God?

What is the spirit mentioned in these texts?
The spirit of god is in my nostrils
Job 27:3

What is the context? The word "spirit" was used in various ways in the Hebrew language. Just like the word "bloody" holds more than one meaning to you.

You mean Job's soul/spirit resided in his nostrils? So? If he sneezed too hard? His body would die?

Job was speaking of God's inspiration in his life. Inhaling truth is what inspiration is about. Exhale is what we do when we give forth Truth. That is why the Word of God is God breathed! Out from God. Inhaled by the believer. And, exhaled in his application to life and communication of what he received/inhaled from God's Word.

The word spirit in these texts has a marginal reference
Which reads “or breath”
The actual root word is “pneuma”
A word which means breath or air
“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7

Again... The breath of life is in the plural in the Hebrew. Breath of lives. I have had this verified by Hebrew speaking Christians. One was an Orthodox Jew who became a believer. He could not make sense of it, but admitted its what the Hebrew declares. If that was speaking of 'air?' Why plurality of airs? It speaks of soul and human spirit. Adam was body, soul, and spirit.

When one is missing, the soul is dead
Can the soul really die?
“the soul that sinneth, it shall die”Ezekiel 18:20

Again, word usage will dictate its meaning in context.
Have you ever heard such a thing said?

John Smithson was such a unfortunate soul all his life.
​

Soul could be used simply as a means to speak of 'a person.'

Hence? The person who sins will die!

What happens when a soul dies?
Does the soul go to heaven?
Or Hell?

There are two kinds of death for man.

Physical death = soul leaves body and body ceases having life.

Spiritual death = human spirit ceases in function and man has no fellowship with God.


Adam was told on the day he ate that he would DIE. The Hebrew says, "In dying you shall die." Tradition says, "surely die." Yet, Adam died first spiritually!

Dead men do not run around and put on fig leaves. Do they? Adam ate and died spiritually. The Lord provided the man and woman animal skins to cover them. To get those animal skins? BLOOD was shed. Adam and Eve had repented of their wrong doing after they saw the error of their ways. The Lord provided the blood sacrifice for their souls. They became born again and once again walked with a human spirit. But! They DIED when they ate. SPIRITUAL DEATH. Not physical!

Answer:It ceases to exist and the breath of life,
Which made up part of the soul,
Returns to God
“all that are in the graves
shall hear his voice
and shall come forth”John5:28-29

Note, please...

John 5:27-29

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when
all who are in their graves will hear his voice and
come out—those who have done good will rise to live,
and those who have done evil will rise
to be condemned.

Jesus spoke those words when?

BEFORE he died for man's sins on the Cross. Jewish saints were at that time in Abraham's side next to Torments below the earth. For no soul could enter Heaven without first having his sins paid for in full. It does not say they will hear his voice from the grave. "In their graves" speaks in terms of those who have passed on. It was a way of speaking of those who died before them. Jesus was speaking of what was to come. "for a time is coming"

That time came when Jesus ascended to Heaven and brought behind him a long train of OT saints (souls) who had been confined below the earth to be taken with him up to Heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-9
This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." (What does
"he ascended" mean except that he also
descended to the lower,
earthly regions?"
​

Where did Jesus go below the earth to find these saints?

Luke 16:22-25
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels
carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died
and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he
looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus
by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham,
have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of
his finger in water and cool my tongue,
because I am in agony in this fire.'

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your
lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus
received bad things, but now he is comforted here and
you are in agony."​

OT saints had to await below the earth before the Finished Work of Christ on the Cross. Wait there before they could be cleared of sins for their access to Heaven.


In the mean time the unbeliever rich man (soul) still remains in Hell where he is now tormented.

Notice? The rich man had no body. Yet? He feels pain and is conscious of his experience while locked into that dimension. In that dimension his soul does not need a body to be alive to feel the pain and torment, in a place which is designated to be the waiting place before the Lake of Fire becomes his final eternal destiny.

​

What did Christ say about the dead
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep
But I go that I may awake him out of sleep
The disciples therefore said unto Him,
Lord, if is fallen asleep ,he will recover
Now Jesus had spoken of his death
But they thought he had spake of
Taking rest in sleep
Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly
Lazarus is dead”John 11:11-14

You confuse here the figurative with literal.

When we sleep? What happens to your soul? You have no body consciousness. Our soul is still existing while we sleep. Likewise. When we die? Our soul has no body consciousness. Hence... "we sleep."

Or body is our soul's connection to the created physical world. It allows us to affect the physical world. A soul outside of a body can not even lift a feather. No one in our immediate area could see us or know we are there. We are dead to the world without a body, and the world is dead to us as well.

If we have no body? Our soul is then DEAD to this world. Dead. That is why we are to reckon our bodies crucified with Christ and live as if we are dead to this world.

Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our
Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has
been crucified to me, and I to the world.

​

The people here who have been arguing for their particular meaning of the soul have been arguing on a flat one dimensional level. No depth of the full council of God's Word. Try to introduce them to the full council? And they run and scream "paganism!"

Their concept is so devoid of spiritual understanding. One that even an unbeliever can grasp. One that an 'atheist' can grasp, as evidenced by the link given to prove their point. The Communists did, too. They saw man as nothing more as being a superior animal. They did not recognize the value of the human soul to God.

Revelation 20:4
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been
given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those
who had been beheaded because of their testimony
for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had
not worshiped the beast or his image and had not
received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ
a thousand years."
​

When they are to come to life? They are given a resurrection body so that they could be alive on earth. Yet, in Heaven which is Eternal living? Their souls needed no body to be alive.

Notice something that those souls did? Souls that are dead can not shout out to God nor be conscious of their condition. Right? Well, those bodiless souls were conscious and very much alive while they yet did not have a resurrection body! Why? They were not on earth. They were in a different dimension which has an affinity for the soul. In Heaven!

Revelation 6:9-10
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under
the altar the souls of those who had been slain
because of the word of God and the testimony they
had maintained. They called out in a loud voice,
"How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you
judge the inhabitants of the earth
and avenge our blood?"




.
​

 

[JohnDB]

From what I have understood a person's soul is both a material, flesh and blood body as well as their spirit and mind.

This is a bit different than most...and probably going to be heavily debated (as if it hasn't already) but...Jesus came back flesh and blood as well as spirit and mind intact...why should we be treated any differently if we are his friends and God is capable.

 

[GenemZ]

From what I have understood a person's soul is both a material, flesh and blood body as well as their spirit and mind.

This is a bit different than most...and probably going to be heavily debated (as if it hasn't already) but...Jesus came back flesh and blood as well as spirit and mind intact...why should we be treated any differently if we are his friends and God is capable.

Unless you back up what you say with chapter and verse? How can it be debated?

Anyone can say anything they feel something is. Please give Scripture to make your point.


Grace and peace, GeneZ



.

 

[RND]

If you are going to use that line all the time you better start producing some specifics. Paganism in many forms believed in life after death. So, we reject eternal life because they believe that?

No, we reject the notion of "immortality" with out God. Practically all pagan religions believe in life after death and that is "immortal" life apart from God. But clearly the Bible tells us that "eternal life is a "gift" not a right or something that is inherent.

The Egyptians took the lives of the family members and servants of those that died to assist them in the "after" life because they believed that man was immortal without God.

Why was their view wrong? Also, if we are convinced we float away to the "after" life at death why don't we emulate the model of the Egyptians?

You always give that in a vague generalized fashion. Tell us specifically. Without cutting and pasting. In what way have Christians been paganized in regards to the soul?

That is evidenced in Luke 16 in one of the most fascinating verses in all of scripture, verse 18. Throughout the Bible time and time again the acceptance of false doctrine from the surrounding pagan nations is called "adultery." Jesus called the Pharisees adulterers because they willingly accepted the Greek Hellenistic view of the state of the dead.

The Jews believed in an after life. Those who knew their Torah did.

Sure, they also believed in a literal and physical resurrection of the dead by God.

If what you said were true? Your side would not be using the ones you offer. The fact that your side keeps picking heretics or offshoot sects speaks volumes. Your modus operandi? "Deny and Defy." That's all you have to work with.

You sound like a broken record.....

DR. T.A. Kantonen (1900-??), a Lutheran professor at the Hamma Divinity School, and an American Member of the Lutheran World Federation Commission on Theology states: "The influence of Hellenic philosophy, represented by the Alexandrian fathers in particular, tended to spiritualize eschatology into a continuing inner purification and immortality of the soul."
"Primitive animism with its notion of a detachable ghost-soul which continues after death to lead a shadowy existence and to enter interaction with the living still underlies much of popular religious thinking on the subject. More important and influential from the theological point of view is the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul which found its classical formulation in Plato's dialogues four centuries before Christ. Since Platonism furnished the sublimest thought forms for the formative period of Christian theology, it is not surprising that many of the Fathers identified the Christian doctrine of eternal life with Platonic immortality and that finally the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-17) adopted it as a dogma of the church." Ibid., p. 27.

"It has been characteristic of Western thought ever since Plato to distinguish sharply between the soul and the body. The body is supposed to be composed of matter, and the soul of spirit. The body is a prison from which the soul is liberated at death to carry on its own proper nonphysical existence. Because of its immaterial spiritual nature the soul has been considered indestructible. Hence the question of life after death has been the question of demonstrating the immortality, the death-defying capacity, of the soul. The body is of little consequence.
This way of thinking is entirely foreign to the Bible. True to Scripture and definitely rejecting the Greek view, the Christian creed says, not "I believe in the immortality of the soul," but "I believe in the resurrection of the body." Ibid., p. 28.


"The soul is not a separate part of man, constituting a substance of its own." Ibid., p. 29.


DR. D. R. G. Owen, professor of religious knowledge at Trinity College was also a lecturer and a teacher on philosophy and religion at Wycliffe College in Toronto, Canada. He said:



"The points at issue revolve around the concepts of "body" and "soul." The "religious" anthropology [in contradistinction to the Biblical] adopts an extreme dualism, asserting that the body and the soul are two different and distinct substances. It claims that the soul is divine in origin and immortal by nature and that the corruptible body is the source of all sin and wickedness. It recommends the cultivation of the soul in detachment from the body, and advocates the suppression of all physical appetites and natural impulses. It regards the body as the tomb or prison of the soul from which it longs to get free. Finally, it tends to suppose that the soul, even in its earth-bound existence, is entirely independent of the body and so enjoys a freedom of choice and action untrammeled by the laws that reign in the physical realm."

"If we turn to the Bible, however, as we shall later, we find that a quite different view of man is assumed throughout. Here there is no dualism and scarcely any idea of the immortality of a detached and independent soul." Ibid., p. 29.


Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971) was a professor at Union Theological Seminary. After contrasting the `classical' view of man, of Graeco-Roman antiquity, and the `Biblical' view, Niebuhr states that the two `were actually merged in the thought of medieval Catholicism.' The classical view that the `mind' or `spirit' is `immortal' was inseparably tied to the dualistic concept of man (p. 7). But among the Hebrews, he observes,
"the concept of an immortal mind in a mortal body remains unknown to the end."

"Origen's Platonism completely destroys the Biblical sense of the unity of man." Ibid., p.153, footnote.


"Gregory's [of Nyssa] thoroughly Platonic conception of the relation of the soul to the body is vividly expressed in his metaphor of the gold and the alloy." Ibid., p.172.


"The idea of the resurrection of the body is a Biblical symbol in which modern minds take the greatest offense and which has long since been displaced in most modern versions of the Christian faith by the idea of the immortality of the soul. The latter idea is regarded as a more plausible expression of the hope of everlasting life." Ibid., vol. 2, p. 294.


"The resurrection is not a human possibility in the sense that the immortality of the soul is thought to be so. All the plausible and implausible proofs for the immortality of the soul are efforts on the part of the human mind to master and to control the consummation of life. They all try to prove in one way or another that an eternal element in the nature of man is worthy and capable of survival beyond death." Ibid., p. 295.


"The Christian hope of the consummation of life and history is less absurd than alternate doctrines which seek to comprehend and to effect the completion of life by some power or capacity inherent in man and his history."Ibid., p. 298.


Dr. Emil Brunner (1889-1966) was professor of systematic and practical theology at the University of Zurich, Switzerland, and a guest professor at Princeton, and at the International Christian University at Tokyo, Japan.


After discussing the widespread , historic concept of the `survival of the soul after death' as `the separation of soul from body', he states:



"For the history of Western thought, the Platonic teaching of the immortality of the soul became of special significance. It penetrated so deeply into the thought of Western man because, although with certain modifications, it was assimilated by Christian theology and church teaching, was even declared by the Lateran Council of 1512 [1513] to be a dogma, to contradict which was heresy."

Then he added:



"Only recently, as a result of a deepened understanding of the New Testament, have strong doubts arisen as to its compatibility with the Christian conception of the relation between God and man." Ibid.

According to Platonism:


"The body is mortal, the soul immortal. The mortal husk conceals this eternal essence which in death is freed from its outer shell."

After observing that `this dualistic conception of man does not correspond to the Christian outlook', he then remarked:


"Since this mode of robbing evil of its sting runs necessarily parallel with the rendering innocuous of death through the teaching about immortality, this solution of the problem of death stands in irreconcilable opposition to Christian thought." Ibid.

David R. Davies (1889-??) was the rector at St. Mary Magdalen in Britain. He stated:


"The soul of man is not necessarily automatically immortal. It is capable of being destroyed. the Bible offers no ground whatsoever for believing that the soul is immune from death and destruction. The soul can be destroyed.

The immortality of the soul is not a Biblical doctrine, but Greek philosophy. The Biblical doctrine about the soul is the resurrection from the dead. Man is a created being. God created him out of nothing. Man was created for immortality, but by his own rebellion against God he made himself mortal."

"The Hebrew view of man was entirely different. In the Bible man is regarded as a unity of `life' or spirit, which manifests itself as both soul and body. Since man has made himself mortal, his soul, in consequence, also partakes of mortality. Man is not a compound of two different entities, matter and spirit, but a unity of spirit functioning as matter and soul. It is this unity that is mortal." Ibid., p. 84,85.


Dr. Basil F.C. Atkinson (1895-??) was the under-librarian of Cambridge University Library and commented on Genesis 2:7 saying:


"It has sometimes been thought that the impartation of the life principle, as it is brought before us in this verse, entailed immortality of the spirit or soul. It has been said that to be made in the image of God involves immortality. The Bible never says so. If it involves immortality, why does it not also involve omniscience or omnipresence, or any other quality or attribute of the Infinite? Why should one alone be singled out? The breath of life was not breathed into man's heart, but into his nostrils. It involved physical life. Throughout the Bible man, apart from Christ, is conceived of as made of dust and ashes, a physical creature, to whom is lent by God a principle of life. The Greek thinkers tended to think of man as an immortal soul imprisoned in a body. This emphasis is the opposite to that of the Bible, but has found a wide place in Christian thought."

 

[RND]

Response to Gene - continued

I am the last one to belong to the popular view on issues when it comes to the Bible. When you are in a view that is unpopular the burden is on you to provide greater details which you are not providing. You only provide generic data lists and then demand that we draw the same conclusion that you feel comfortable with. If you could get beyond the generic, it would help you if you are right. Throwing out those lists of lexiconical definitions and then running to a conclusion means nothing.

Brother, the Bible provides a great deal of evidence regarding the fallacy of the immortal soul.
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.


Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.


Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?


Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.



1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.


Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.


Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. 53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Death does not mean one's soul ceases to exist. Death is a type of existence.

Death is not an existence.

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Eccl 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
The dead know not anything, everything about them perishes, including their conscious mind. They remain this way until their resurrection.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?


Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Even the thoughts of the dead perish with them when they lose their soul (the spark of life).
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

A body without a soul is dead. The body is dead.

A body is a soul.

The soul is then dead to the world without a body, but it remains existing. That is why the euphemism in reference to the believer is "sleep." Because when we sleep our soul does not stop existing, we are simply not body conscious. You are not conscious of your body when you sleep.

Sleep is always, always compared to death.

Contrary to your thinking in regards to the soul, the Jews who read and understood the OT knew that the soul lived on.

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."
11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul,
"Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself
with his face to the ground.


15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"


"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned
away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called
on you to tell me what to do."
1 Samuel 28
​

It is interesting to noted several things about this passage. One is shock and outrage of the with of Endor when she finds out she was tricked by Saul. Second of all this verse dispels the notion that the dead go straight to heaven at death because Samuel was "brought up" and did not come down from heaven. Third is the notion that God uses necromancy and wizardry to communicate with Saul when it us clear that God stopped talking to Saul and refused to communicate with him anymore. I could go on but these are a few obvious reasons why this is not an accurate picture of how 1) God communicates with people and 2) this is not a picture of what happens at death.

​

You did not refute. You just expressed your opinion against what I presented. Refutation requires a systematic exposing of falsehood. Something like what I did when I showed the character references for the several links to sources for your claimed dogma.

Brother, I clearly showed the error of your understanding of what scripture says regarding the state of the dead.

Well, where are your sources then? .

Well, the Bible is the only one I really need.

They better be better than what I seen already if you are ever going to get me to reconsider.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

All your side offers is opinion based upon what you have concluded from what someone else taught you. It just does not stand.

Brother, the Bible is as clear as the sky in the noonday sun. Man is not "naturally" immortal.

You may think you do. But you offer me nothing of substance. Nothing to think with. Only your opinion with conclusions that your buddies amen to.

All based on the Bible.

What your teaching says? Let me make sure I have this right. Is that the soul is our animal life. Do I have that correct?

Nope. A soul is a sentient being whether it be man or animal.

That without a body we have no soul. The soul requires a body to be a soul.

The body is a soul.

That is what your words have been conveying to me. I want to make sure I am reading that much right.

You're not. Which probably explains so very much.

 

[GenemZ]

No, we reject the notion of "immortality" with out God. Practically all pagan religions believe in life after death and that is "immortal" life apart from God. But clearly the Bible tells us that "eternal life is a "gift" not a right or something that is inherent.

Eternal life is NOT the same thing as everlasting life.

A created life can not in itself have Eternal Life. For Eternal Life has no beginning. Yet, a life can be created to never die. It had a beginning but no end. That alone is everlasting life.

In contrast to everlasting life, God is Eternal Life. He had no beginning and he has no end.

God is giving those who believe in Jesus Christ - the Son of God - eternal life. Why? Jesus is Eternal God. Who is his Bride then to be?


Eternal only appears in the OT when spoken in regards to God alone. In the NT is where we see it begin to be applied to the Bride of Christ.

Galatians 6:8
"The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from
that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows
to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will
reap eternal life."
​

Our rewards will be in regards in how much of God's Eternal life we were proven trustworthy to share in. How much Eternal life the believer will will be entrusted with is being determined right now. Determined by how we are sensitive to the Spirit in being led into truth, or grieve Him by following the natural ways of our own natural inclinations.

That destruction will be our loss of Eternal Rewards. But, they will always have the Holy Spirit living in them. How much of Eternal Life we will have access to will be determined at the evaluation of the believer.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one
already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on
this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood,
hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is,
because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed
with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's
work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his
reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself
will be saved, but only as one escaping
through the flames."

​

In one way we all have been given Eternal Life when we believe in Christ. For, the Holy Spirit who is God is Eternal Life. He will always be with us. We all have been given Eternal Life in that sense. But, how much our soul will be honored to actually share and partake in the essence of God's Eternal life is now being determined by our choices in life. Determined by how faithful we will remain to the leading of the Holy Spirit who desires all believers to mature in Christ as to glorify Christ.



Eternal life is not to be confused with everlasting life. A soul can have everlasting live. OT saints have everlasting life. There souls had a beginning, but no end. Not all souls will be given Eternal life, to share in a life that had no beginning and will never end. For not all will artake in God's nature given as rewards for faithfulness.



In Christ, GeneZ




.



.

 

[GenemZ]

DR. T.A. Kantonen (1900-??), a Lutheran professor at the Hamma Divinity School, and an American Member of the Lutheran World Federation Commission on Theology states: "The influence of Hellenic philosophy, represented by the Alexandrian fathers in particular, tended to spiritualize eschatology into a continuing inner purification and immortality of the soul."
"Primitive animism with its notion of a detachable ghost-soul which continues after death to lead a shadowy existence and to enter interaction with the living still underlies much of popular religious thinking on the subject. More important and influential from the theological point of view is the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul which found its classical formulation in Plato's dialogues four centuries before Christ. Since Platonism furnished the sublimest thought forms for the formative period of Christian theology, it is not surprising that many of the Fathers identified the Christian doctrine of eternal life with Platonic immortality and that finally the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-17) adopted it as a dogma of the church." Ibid., p. 27.

DR. D. R. G. Owen, professor of religious knowledge at Trinity College was also a lecturer and a teacher on philosophy and religion at Wycliffe College in Toronto, Canada. He said:
"The points at issue revolve around the concepts of "body" and "soul." The "religious" anthropology [in contradistinction to the Biblical] adopts an extreme dualism, asserting that the body and the soul are two different and distinct substances. It claims that the soul is divine in origin and immortal by nature and that the corruptible body is the source of all sin and wickedness. It recommends the cultivation of the soul in detachment from the body, and advocates the suppression of all physical appetites and natural impulses. It regards the body as the tomb or prison of the soul from

Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971) was a professor at Union Theological Seminary. After contrasting the `classical' view of man, of Graeco-Roman antiquity, and the `Biblical' view, Niebuhr states that the two `were actually merged in the thought of medieval Catholicism.' The classical view that the `mind' or `spirit' is `immortal' was inseparably tied to the dualistic concept of man (p. 7). But among the Hebrews, he observes,
"the concept of an immortal mind in a mortal body remains unknown to the end."


Dr. Emil Brunner (1889-1966) was professor of systematic and practical theology at the University of Zurich, Switzerland, and a guest professor at Princeton, and at the International Christian University at Tokyo, Japan.


After discussing the widespread , historic concept of the `survival of the soul after death' as `the separation of soul from body', he states:



According to Platonism:


"The body is mortal, the soul immortal. The mortal husk conceals this eternal essence which in death is freed from its outer shell."


David R. Davies (1889-??) was the rector at St. Mary Magdalen in Britain. He stated:


"The soul of man is not necessarily automatically immortal. It is capable of being destroyed. the Bible offers no ground whatsoever for believing that the soul is immune from death and destruction. The soul can be destroyed.

The immortality of the soul is not a Biblical doctrine, but Greek philosophy. The Biblical doctrine about the soul is the resurrection from the dead. Man is a created being. God created him out of nothing. Man was created for immortality, but by his own rebellion against God he made himself mortal."



Dr. Basil F.C. Atkinson (1895-??) was the under-librarian of Cambridge University Library and commented on Genesis 2:7 saying:

All these men whom I never heard of before are making claims . But what's revealed in the Bible does not line up with what they claim. You might as well throw out most of the New Testament as some paganized infiltration and also ignore certain passages in the OT that show the soul lives on as Samuel revealed with the witch of Endor.

Destruction and death have various categories of meaning. It seems these men wish to impose a human standard of thinking upon what the Word actually reveals.

But on these I could find some background.

Dr. Emil Brunner

Believed in infant baptism. Non Biblical to the core.

Although Brunner re-emphasized the centrality of Christ, evangelical and fundamentalist theologians, mainly those from America and Great Britain, have usually rejected Brunner's other teachings, including his dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures and his questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible.
Emil Brunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

Dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures?
Questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible?

That is not very good thinking from a Biblical perspective.




Here's some more from your list ...

Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr?

During the 1930s, Niebuhr was a prominent leader of the militant faction of the Socialist Party of America. He promoted adoption of the United frontCommunist Party USA, a position in sharp contrast to ideas later in his career. According to the autobiography of his factional opponent Louis Waldman[specify], Niebuhr even led military drill exercises among the young members.
Reinhold Niebuhr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

United Communist party? I have been telling you all along that your teaching on the soul matches close to what the communist proposed about man's soul. Now I am beginning to see a connection.



Please, I asked for recognized scholars. Not just someone who makes claim to a denomination and has some letters after their name. Even within the ministries I have been in there were always some who were derelict in what they taught even though they identified with a certain denomination in name.

If you could possibly quote the likes of scholars such as F.F. Bruce? Kenneth Wuest? Someone of that caliber? Then you would get my attention.

But the little I could find of the obscure sources you provided? Well, just look at the other things they accepted and believed as well.


In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[Gary51]

Just to show you there is much more than meets your eye.

And there lays your problem...

You cannot see or understand the simplicity of God's word. Although it has been made plain to you, you cannot see it. You think there is more than meets the eye. You said it!!!

Hence you cannot accept the obvoius, so you ignore the obvious in search of hidden meanings.

 

[Gary51]

Unless you back up what you say with chapter and verse? How can it be debated?

Anyone can say anything they feel something is. Please give Scripture to make your point. .

What's the point of giving you chapter and verse. You will only try to point out the hidden meaning!

 

[Gary51]

Please, I asked for recognized scholars.

 

[GenemZ]

And there lays your problem...

You cannot see or understand the simplicity of God's word. Although it has been made plain to you, you cannot see it. You think there is more than meets the eye. You said it!!!

Hence you cannot accept the obvoius, so you ignore the obvious in search of hidden meanings.

There is a difference between looking for hidden meaning. And, meaning that is hidden which is to be found by grace for those who seek God.

Colossians 2:2-3
"My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart
and united in love, so that they may have the full riches
of complete understanding, in order that they may know
the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden
all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."



Mark 4:22
"For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and
whatever is concealed is meant to be brought
out into the open."
​

Gary? What is your point in what you said? All we need to know is to be found in English translations? With simplicity?

There are many hidden truths in Scripture because our gaining in knowledge is not to be by means of human effort. Seeing what has been hidden is God honoring a soul who is truly seeking him according to His will. Truth is treasure. Truth is power for it makes you free. God does not lay all to be know out in plain view by those who's hearts are not really with him as they ought to be. That is why Jesus warned not to throw our pearls before swine.


Now, if our soul life is in the blood like that of an animal? If you got a blood transfusion? Would you become a different soul? According to the definitions some here are trying to hand us? You would take on another soul.

Man was not created with the same kind of soul as an animal. Just like an engine of a car is not the same kind of engine as a steam locomotive. Both are engines, but not all engines are the same.

God created the human soul in His image. A unique kind of soul with unique attributes. Man is the highest created soul in all creation. We will be higher than angels in Eternity. And, if we know that fallen angels will be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire? Angels are created to last forever? And, the human soul which is created higher was not?

What confuses some is that its not our soul that is weaker than angels. Its what confines our soul that makes us weaker. This body of dust.

The Lord God of Israel took on human flesh and placed his Deity on hold. When he did that? His soul ceased functioning as God, and he became as a man.

The human soul has a potential that is so great that we as mere men of the dust can not begin to fathom nor dream what God has in store for those who love Him. The Human soul was created by God to experience the highest level of knowing God experientially. Even greater than any of the angels can know God. For the Lord God of Israel before the incarnation possessed a soul.

Leviticus 26:10-12 10
'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because
of the new.Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you,
and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among
you and be your God, and you shall be My people."



Psalm 11:5
"Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as
the wicked one, and anyone loving violence
his soul certainly hates."
​

That is what makes the second person of the Trinity the Son of God. For he was both Deity and Soul eternally. The incarnation was simply the adding of the body of dust of the earth. He already was having a soul.

Christ Jesus always was Soul and Deity, even before the incarnation. Some here are bent on obscuring the importance of the human soul. Satan and his angels ENVY what they know our potential as humans can be. They want to rob us of understanding and knowledge of the truth. The soul of man is God's highest creation. The human soul was designed to share God's life on a level that Satan gnashes his teeth over the thought of.

Hebrews 1:14
"Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve
those who will inherit salvation?"

​

Angels will be loving and joyous servants to the Bride of Christ in Eternity. Satan despised the notion of having to serve anyone but himself. That is why Jesus rubbed it in his nose when He said he came to serve. That the greatest of us will be a servant to all.

The human soul has been created to be a higher life than the spirits of angels. That reality at this time remains hidden. Yet? Fallen angels will remain tormented in the Lake of Fire forever? But? The higher level of human soul will perish? Remember. Its called the Second Death for angels. Its a death. The angels will not cease to exist when in the Lake of Fire in this death. Yet the higher life of the soul will not be as durable as what is the lower angelic spirit?

Judges 10:16
"And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst
and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient
because of the trouble of Israel."

​

The Son of God has always been Deity and Soul. And, as God his Soul has no blood! It was through that very Soul that all things have been created. Created through his Soul, so that we who are souls can relate to all that has been created.


Sorry, chap. I can not turn it off. Its not of myself.


In grace and peace, GeneZ



.

.

 

[RND]

Eternal life is NOT the same thing as everlasting life.

Yes it is. Because it is from the "Eternal" life that "everlasting" life is given.

Eternal only appears in the OT when spoken in regards to God alone. In the NT is where we see it begin to be applied to the Bride of Christ.

Galatians 6:8
"The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from
that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows
to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will
reap eternal life."​

So then if it eternal life is a gift from God and it is bestowed on others then they too, by virtue of the gift, become eternal as well. Simply.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Our rewards will be in regards in how much of God's Eternal life we were proven trustworthy to share in. How much Eternal life the believer will will be entrusted with is being determined right now. Determined by how we are sensitive to the Spirit in being led into truth, or grieve Him by following the natural ways of our own natural inclinations.

There are no scriptures that determined that "eternal life" is incremental. If there are you should attempt to back up such a claim with scripture.

That destruction will be our loss of Eternal Rewards. But, they will always have the Holy Spirit living in them. How much of Eternal Life we will have access to will be determined at the evaluation of the believer.

Eternal life is eternal life. There are no decrees conferred in it.

In one way we all have been given Eternal Life when we believe in Christ. For, the Holy Spirit who is God is Eternal Life. He will always be with us. We all have been given Eternal Life in that sense. But, how much our soul will be honored to actually share and partake in the essence of God's Eternal life is now being determined by our choices in life. Determined by how faithful we will remain to the leading of the Holy Spirit who desires all believers to mature in Christ as to glorify Christ.

Eternal life is eternal life. There are no decrees conferred in it.

Eternal life is not to be confused with everlasting life. A soul can have everlasting live. OT saints have everlasting life.

The only way everlasting life can be conferred is through the eternal life of Christ.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Of course, this verse sums up the entire issue and nicely contrasts the entire question. Some will "perish", i.e. die, some will experience "eternal or everlasting" life through Jesus Christ.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There souls had a beginning, but no end. Not all souls will be given Eternal life, to share in a life that had no beginning and will never end. For not all will artake in God's nature given as rewards for faithfulness.

Apparently, you need to read the Bible more. Gene, where is the scriptural documentation to back up these fantastic claims of yours?

 

[RND]

All these men whom I never heard of before are making claims . But what's revealed in the Bible does not line up with what they claim. You might as well throw out most of the New Testament as some paganized infiltration and also ignore certain passages in the OT that show the soul lives on as Samuel revealed with the witch of Endor.

Destruction and death have various categories of meaning. It seems these men wish to impose a human standard of thinking upon what the Word actually reveals.

But on these I could find some background.

Dr. Emil Brunner

Believed in infant baptism. Non Biblical to the core.

Although Brunner re-emphasized the centrality of Christ, evangelical and fundamentalist theologians, mainly those from America and Great Britain, have usually rejected Brunner's other teachings, including his dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures and his questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible.
Emil Brunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

Dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures?
Questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible?

That is not very good thinking from a Biblical perspective.

Gene, I know you would rather kill the messenger than listen to the message. That's understandable. When you see so much evidence offered by scripture you are left with the desperate attempt at disqualifying any opinion that doesn't meld with the myopia you possess.

What's worse is your arguments are either purposely disingenuous or, as I suspect, you simply read into things what you want to as opposed to seeking any understanding.

"Brunner's ecclesiastical positions varied at differing points in his career. Much like Barth, he rejected infant baptism entirely, but later changed his mind."

Here's some more from your list ...

Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr?

During the 1930s, Niebuhr was a prominent leader of the militant faction of the Socialist Party of America. He promoted adoption of the United frontCommunist Party USA, a position in sharp contrast to ideas later in his career. According to the autobiography of his factional opponent Louis Waldman[specify], Niebuhr even led military drill exercises among the young members.
Reinhold Niebuhr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

United Communist party? I have been telling you all along that your teaching on the soul matches close to what the communist proposed about man's soul. Now I am beginning to see a connection.

I suppose, just from reading what you have written here that you'd have a huge problem if this man switched from the Republican party to become a Democrat!

Of course, if you read the rest of the Wiki you'll see that he later "distance" himself from these beliefs. But, oh well, what's the truth matter in forming the opposition to an argument.

But, let me ask you, did your read this?
Historian Arthur Schlesinger described the legacy of Niebuhr as being contested between American liberals and conservatives, who both wanted to claim him.[11] Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., gave credit to Niebuhr's influence. Foreign-policy conservatives point to Niebuhr's support of the containment doctrine during the Cold War as an instance of moral realism; progressives cite his later opposition to the Vietnam War.[12]
His legacy continues to be important to contemporary thought. Both major-party candidates in the 2008 presidential election cited Niebuhr as an influence: Senator John McCain, in his work Hard Call, celebrated him as a paragon of clarity about the costs of a "good" war. President Barack Obama[13] and "favorite theologian". [14] called Niebuhr his "favorite philosopher"

Please, I asked for recognized scholars. Not just someone who makes claim to a denomination and has some letters after their name. Even within the ministries I have been in there were always some who were derelict in what they taught even though they identified with a certain denomination in name.

Both Brunner and Niebuhr are accomplished authors and theologians. The fact you recogonize neither is not the least bit surprising.

If you could possibly quote the likes of scholars such as F.F. Bruce? Kenneth Wuest? Someone of that caliber? Then you would get my attention.

These are scholars you recognize and accept which is typical of forming a belief and argument around those that support your particular dogma - which, remarkably, you accuse other of doing as well.

But the little I could find of the obscure sources you provided? Well, just look at the other things they accepted and believed as well.

That's called throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Mikecpking]

There is a difference between looking for hidden meaning. And, meaning that is hidden which is to be found by grace for those who seek God.

Colossians 2:2-3
"My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart
and united in love, so that they may have the full riches
of complete understanding, in order that they may know
the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden
all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."​

Mark 4:22
"For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and
whatever is concealed is meant to be brought
out into the open."​

Gary? What is your point in what you said? All we need to know is to be found in English translations? With simplicity?

There are many hidden truths in Scripture because our gaining in knowledge is not to be by means of human effort. Seeing what has been hidden is God honoring a soul who is truly seeking him according to His will. Truth is treasure. Truth is power for it makes you free. God does not lay all to be know out in plain view by those who's hearts are not really with him as they ought to be. That is why Jesus warned not to throw our pearls before swine.


Now, if our soul life is in the blood like that of an animal? If you got a blood transfusion? Would you become a different soul? According to the definitions some here are trying to hand us? You would take on another soul.

Man was not created with the same kind of soul as an animal. Just like an engine of a car is not the same kind of engine as a steam locomotive. Both are engines, but not all engines are the same.

God created the human soul in His image. A unique kind of soul with unique attributes. Man is the highest created soul in all creation. We will be higher than angels in Eternity. And, if we know that fallen angels will be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire? Angels are created to last forever? And, the human soul which is created higher was not?

What confuses some is that its not our soul that is weaker than angels. Its what confines our soul that makes us weaker. This body of dust.

The Lord God of Israel took on human flesh and placed his Deity on hold. When he did that? His soul ceased functioning as God, and he became as a man.

The human soul has a potential that is so great that we as mere men of the dust can not begin to fathom nor dream what God has in store for those who love Him. The Human soul was created by God to experience the highest level of knowing God experientially. Even greater than any of the angels can know God. For the Lord God of Israel before the incarnation possessed a soul.

Leviticus 26:10-12 10
'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because
of the new.Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you,
and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among
you and be your God, and you shall be My people."​

Psalm 11:5
"Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as
the wicked one, and anyone loving violence
his soul certainly hates."​

That is what makes the second person of the Trinity the Son of God. For he was both Deity and Soul eternally. The incarnation was simply the adding of the body of dust of the earth. He already was having a soul.

Christ Jesus always was Soul and Deity, even before the incarnation. Some here are bent on obscuring the importance of the human soul. Satan and his angels ENVY what they know our potential as humans can be. They want to rob us of understanding and knowledge of the truth. The soul of man is God's highest creation. The human soul was designed to share God's life on a level that Satan gnashes his teeth over the thought of.

Hebrews 1:14
"Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve
those who will inherit salvation?"​

Angels will be loving and joyous servants to the Bride of Christ in Eternity. Satan despised the notion of having to serve anyone but himself. That is why Jesus rubbed it in his nose when He said he came to serve. That the greatest of us will be a servant to all.

The human soul has been created to be a higher life than the spirits of angels. That reality at this time remains hidden. Yet? Fallen angels will remain tormented in the Lake of Fire forever? But? The higher level of human soul will perish? Remember. Its called the Second Death for angels. Its a death. The angels will not cease to exist when in the Lake of Fire in this death. Yet the higher life of the soul will not be as durable as what is the lower angelic spirit?

Judges 10:16
"And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst
and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient
because of the trouble of Israel."​

The Son of God has always been Deity and Soul. And, as God his Soul has no blood! It was through that very Soul that all things have been created. Created through his Soul, so that we who are souls can relate to all that has been created.


Sorry, chap. I can not turn it off. Its not of myself.


In grace and peace, GeneZ



.

.

Hi Genez,
In those 'cut and paste' notes, I already pointed out that god used 'nephesh' of himself. You again have to look at the Hebrew meaning of 'nephesh' and not put the Greek mythological idea in its place, otherwise you distorted view.

To answer about Samuel rising up in the Witch of Endor story, I already pointed out that when a person dies, they are no longer a 'nephesh' but take on the status as 'rephaim' (job 3, psalm 88). Since God can resurrect, I really can't see your point, certainly as the word 'nephesh' is not mentioned in this passage.
Your slant on body, soul dualism is in conflict with the Hebreww idea of a person being a 'totality' when in the case of Rev 6:9 can only mean 'person'.
I have a problem with you trying to quote scripture against scripture rather than you trying to find a harmony between al the scriptures. It is well documneted taht early right upto present day christian thought is polluted and influenced by the teachings of Plato even as RND and others have pointed out.

 

[GenemZ]

Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Everlasting shame and contempt?

Your version of God's knock off soul should not be around for anything everlasting.

How convenient.




.

 

[GenemZ]

Hi Genez,
In those 'cut and paste' notes, I already pointed out that god used 'nephesh' of himself. You again have to look at the Hebrew meaning of 'nephesh' and not put the Greek mythological idea in its place, otherwise you distorted view.

My 'distorted view?'

The Greek mythological view is not what Paul taught. The thinking of those who held such a view found the idea of a resurrection body to be a major offense. Just as many of that same culture found the idea of sex between one man to one woman, and only in marriage, was bizarre and a strange concept.

What some of your favored scholars have done was to take a slice of what the Greeks believed about the soul but fail to mention the rest of what they accepted. The very thought of a resurrection body for the soul would be like someone today telling you that in heaven you will be having relations with horses and cows. It was highly offensive to their view.

Paul's teaching on the soul was not an attempt to integrate pagan thinking with the Bible. If it was? He failed miserably in doing so. For it contradicts their philosophy in a highly offensive way.

Paul's teaching was not done to try and win over the Greek thinking mind. If anything, what Paul taught about the soul repulsed them.



In Christ, GeneZ



.




.

 

[RND]

Everlasting shame and contempt?

Your version of God's knock off soul should not be around for anything everlasting.

How convenient.

Just like the "life" will last forever so to will the "shame and contempt." It's the shame and contempt of the wicked that is forever, not their life.

Do you get that? I mean, coupled with the obvious it should begin to start sinking in eventually.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I mean the contrast is so simple to spot that it is truly hard to believe so many people miss it. Believing in Jesus Christ = everlasting life. For those that don't believe in Jesus Christ = perish, i.e. "death."

It's hard to miss.

 

[GenemZ]

Originally Posted by genez

Please, I asked for recognized scholars.
​

Oh, I see...


They are recognized all right. By their fruit!

Here are some of them again.

Dr. Emil Brunner

Believed in infant baptism. And...

Although Brunner re-emphasized the centrality of Christ, evangelical fundamentalist theologians, mainly those from America and Great Britain, have usually rejected Brunner's other teachings,and including his dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures and his questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible.

Emil Brunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

​

Read that, Gary? Dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures? That's good?

Questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible? That's smart?

That is not very good thinking from a Biblical perspective, Gary.




Here's another from that list ...

Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr?

During the 1930s, Niebuhr was a prominent leader of the militant faction of the Socialist Party of America. He promoted adoption of the United frontCommunist Party USA, a position in sharp contrast to ideas later in his career. According to the autobiography of his factional opponent Louis Waldman [specify], Niebuhr even led military drill exercises among the young members.

Reinhold Niebuhr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

​

United Communist party? Gary says that's honorable and good. OK.

I have been telling you all along that this teaching on the soul matches close to what the communist proposed about man's soul. Look right there. Its in harmony with his philosophy.


Yes, Gary. They are recognized scholars. From a mile away!










.

 

[RND]

Originally Posted by genez

Please, I asked for recognized scholars.
​

Oh, I see... they are recognized all right. By their FRUIT.

Dr. Emil Brunner

Believed in infant baptism. And...

Although Brunner re-emphasized the centrality of Christ, evangelical fundamentalist theologians, mainly those from America and Great Britain, have usually rejected Brunner's other teachings,and including his dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures and his questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible.

Emil Brunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

Dismissal of certain "miraculous" elements within the Scriptures?
Questioning of the usefulness of the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible?

That is not very good thinking from a Biblical perspective.




Here's some more from your list ...

Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr?

During the 1930s, Niebuhr was a prominent leader of the militant faction of the Socialist Party of America. He promoted adoption of the United frontCommunist Party USA, a position in sharp contrast to ideas later in his career. According to the autobiography of his factional opponent Louis Waldman[specify], Niebuhr even led military drill exercises among the young members.
Reinhold Niebuhr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

United Communist party? I have been telling you all along that your teaching on the soul matches close to what the communist proposed about man's soul. Now I am beginning to see a connection.


Yes, Gary. They are recognized. A mile away!



And, I raise you an

Gene, I know you would rather kill the messenger than listen to the message. That's understandable. When you see so much evidence offered by scripture you are left with the desperate attempt at disqualifying any opinion that doesn't meld with the myopia you possess.

What's worse is your arguments are either purposely disingenuous or, as I suspect, you simply read into things what you want to as opposed to seeking any understanding.

"Brunner's ecclesiastical positions varied at differing points in his career. Much like Barth, he rejected infant baptism entirely, but later changed his mind."



I suppose, just from reading what you have written here that you'd have a huge problem if this man switched from the Republican party to become a Democrat!

Of course, if you read the rest of the Wiki you'll see that he later "distance" himself from these beliefs. But, oh well, what's the truth matter in forming the opposition to an argument.

But, let me ask you, did your read this?
Historian Arthur Schlesinger described the legacy of Niebuhr as being contested between American liberals and conservatives, who both wanted to claim him.[11] Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., gave credit to Niebuhr's influence. Foreign-policy conservatives point to Niebuhr's support of the containment doctrine during the Cold War as an instance of moral realism; progressives cite his later opposition to the Vietnam War.[12]
His legacy continues to be important to contemporary thought. Both major-party candidates in the 2008 presidential election cited Niebuhr as an influence: Senator John McCain, in his work Hard Call, celebrated him as a paragon of clarity about the costs of a "good" war. President Barack Obama[13] and "favorite theologian". [14] called Niebuhr his "favorite philosopher"



Both Brunner and Niebuhr are accomplished authors and theologians. The fact you recogonize neither is not the least bit surprising.



These are scholars you recognize and accept which is typical of forming a belief and argument around those that support your particular dogma - which, remarkably, you accuse other of doing as well.



That's called throwing the baby out with the bathwater.