Is the Old Testament Done away with?

Bro.T

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In (Matthew 5:17), Jesus made the statement that He came not to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfill. Based on other written statements many ministers have taught their congregation that the arrival of Jesus did away with the Old Testament along with its laws. They even make the statement, to their congregation that they are no longer under the Old Testament, but now operate under the New. So you have people believing that the Old Testament is no longer relevant today. One needs only to further examine the scriptures to find out, how incorrect that position is. In (Matthew 5:18), Jesus Himself states that as long as heaven and earth exist not one jot or not one tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Now you will find in a concordance that jot and tittle mean letter. Here Jesus clearly states that not one letter of the law will be changed as long as heaven and earth exist. We know that the law came from the Old Testament so based solely on (Matthew 5:18), it nor the Old Testament cannot be done away with. There is clearly a discrepancy between what is being taught and what the scriptures say. The fact, that Jesus came to fulfill is known, because that is what is stated in (Matthew 5:17).

But one needs to find out what He was to fulfill, since that is the condition put forth in (Matthew 5:18), when He said no letter would pass from the law until all is fulfilled. You will see the information needed to answer this will be found in the Old Testament. This itself serves as further proof as to how erroneous the position of doing away with the Old Testament is. This lesson will focus on what Jesus was referring to when He said He came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill and His position on the commandments.


 
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Bro.T

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The Gospel of Luke, will reveal what Jesus meant when He said in (Matthew 5:17 & 18), that He came to fulfill and no letter would pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Looking at Luke chapter 24:14-44, you will find that, this is when Jesus had been crucified and Peter and others were at the grave site and they were contemplating the events that had occurred. Verse 16, tells you that Jesus had come among them but they did not know Him. In verse 17, Jesus asks them what they were discussing,
(17) And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
In verse 19 and 20, they explained to Jesus what had taken place, still not recognizing Him. Verse 21, tells why they were sad, they had expected Jesus to restore Israel. (Israel as a nation, had a history of being conquered by other nations. They had been split into two kingdoms and the northern kingdom had already been taken into captivity prior to this time.

All that remained was Judah, and now it had been taken over by Rome.) Now this was the 3rd day since Jesus crucifixion and they were in question because to them nothing had changed. Israel still remained in its same state. Note what Jesus says to them in verse 25:
(25) Then he said unto them, O fool, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Now the prophets had spoke of many things that Jesus was to do when He came. However they were just focused on the redemption of Israel. That is why Jesus told them in verse 25 that they were not bringing into remembrance all the things that were spoken of Him by the prophets. He reminded them in verse 26 that He had to suffer first and then enter into glory. He then in verse 27 went over all that the scriptures had to say concerning Himself. Following is verse 27,
(27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.

The following verse explains what Jesus meant in (Matthew 5:17) where He said He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill.
(Luke 24:44) And He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Here Jesus makes it clear that all things written about Him in the Old Testament must be fulfilled. He also was referring to the writing of Moses, not the commandments. But since ministers have attempted to do away with the laws using that verse, that matter also will be dealt with. Following are just a few examples of things written about Jesus, in the Old Testament along with the verses from the New Testament showing that Jesus fulfilled these in His first coming. This will be followed by examples of things written that He won't fulfill until His second coming.










 
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Bro.T

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THINGS ALREADY FULFILLED

Jesus was to born of a virgin.

Isaiah 7:14, Therefore the Lord himself shall give a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 1:30, And the angel said unto her, Fear not Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
1:31, And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
2:12, For unto is born this in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem

Micah 5:2, But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Matthew 2:1, Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herold the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem.

Jesus was to have the Spirit of the Lord

Isaiah 11:2, And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

Matthew 3:16, And Jesus, when he was baptized, went straightway out the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the spirit of
God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him
.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Notice Jesus didn’t mention that last piece in Isaiah 61:2 and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; because this referrers to Jesus second coming. This part has not been fulfilled yet.


Jesus was to die for our sins

Isaiah 53:5, But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our pace was upon him; and with his stripes we were healed.

Romans 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.









 
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ThatTrueLight

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Sadly, many Christians today are completely ignorant of the OT scriptures and especially the prophets which are a significant part of the foundation of the church of God..

The Apostle to the Gentiles warns men about this although from what I see here in the forum.. men could not care less what the LORD has said in the OT and even the NT in many places.. and therefore everyone becomes wise in their own conceits.. claiming ridiculous things like they are Israel... the new and improved spiritual version.

Sad really.. but hey, it's not like the word of God matters to these people.
 
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Souldier

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I dont see the law as having passed away but i think perhaps it is part of Gods great mystery. Perhaps it speaks mysteries. Paul seems to talk about may thing we don't understand, yet this should not cause us to become weary but instead should cause us to dig deep into the Word by study, prayer, meditation and fellowship. Having said that, i think all that a believer needs to follow is that which The Apostles teach us to follow. If we do that then our eyes will be opened and we will see much value in the OT. However if we start out trying to follow the OT instead, we will not understand what we are trying to follow. Just my opinion.
 
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PaladinValer

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The Ritual/Holiness laws and the Social laws are out. The Moral laws are still very much in play. We are freed from the first two types because of Christ, but He made it clear that we are under no freedom from being a morally right people.
 
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BobRyan

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In (Matthew 5:17), Jesus made the statement that He came not to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfill. Based on other written statements many ministers have taught their congregation that the arrival of Jesus did away with the Old Testament along with its laws. They even make the statement, to their congregation that they are no longer under the Old Testament, but now operate under the New. So you have people believing that the Old Testament is no longer relevant today. One needs only to further examine the scriptures to find out, how incorrect that position is. In (Matthew 5:18), Jesus Himself states that as long as heaven and earth exist not one jot or not one tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Now you will find in a concordance that jot and tittle mean letter. Here Jesus clearly states that not one letter of the law will be changed as long as heaven and earth exist. We know that the law came from the Old Testament so based solely on (Matthew 5:18), it nor the Old Testament cannot be done away with. There is clearly a discrepancy between what is being taught and what the scriptures say. The fact, that Jesus came to fulfill is known, because that is what is stated in (Matthew 5:17).

But one needs to find out what He was to fulfill, since that is the condition put forth in (Matthew 5:18), when He said no letter would pass from the law until all is fulfilled. You will see the information needed to answer this will be found in the Old Testament. This itself serves as further proof as to how erroneous the position of doing away with the Old Testament is. This lesson will focus on what Jesus was referring to when He said He came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill and His position on the commandments.


1. EVERY quote in the NT that is identified by the NT author as "scripture" is the OT.

2. NO quote of "Scripture" in the NT is prefixed by "pay no attention to this - because it is just scripture"

And I think everyone here would agree.

3. Christ said to John the baptizer that they would "fulfill ALL Righteousness" by having Christ baptized - but never argue that "fulfill means abolish".

Again I think this is the part all would agree with.

4. When Paul says "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16 - he is speaking primarily of what we today would call the OT.

Does our Bible have 66 books or is it just 27?

Or as some say just 23 since the Gospels are also pre-cross?

That is the core question in the OP.

or should it be "downsized" to "just the letters in red" as some are in the habit of doing?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Sadly, many Christians today are completely ignorant of the OT scriptures and especially the prophets which are a significant part of the foundation of the church of God..

The Apostle to the Gentiles warns men about this although from what I see here in the forum.. men could not care less what the LORD has said in the OT and even the NT in many places.. and therefore everyone becomes wise in their own conceits.. claiming ridiculous things like they are Israel... the new and improved spiritual version.

Sad really.. but hey, it's not like the word of God matters to these people.

There is a saying "Give me the Bible AND the WORDS IN the Bible" --

Many Christians have Bibles - but how many know what is in it?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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The Ritual/Holiness laws and the Social laws are out. The Moral laws are still very much in play. We are freed from the first two types because of Christ, but He made it clear that we are under no freedom from being a morally right people.

This is also the view of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and a few places in the RCC's own CCC.

(As well as many other sources that would agree).

They argue that even "God's Ten Commandments" are included in that "moral Law" -- "Written on the heart and mind" under the Heb 8 - "New Covenant".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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PaladinValer

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This is also the view of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and a few places in the RCC's own CCC.

(As well as many other sources that would agree).

They argue that even "God's Ten Commandments" are included in that "moral Law" -- "Written on the heart and mind" under the Heb 8 - "New Covenant".

in Christ,

Bob

The specific validity or invalidity of Sabbatarianism isn't part of this thread. The Old Testament in general is.
 
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BobRyan

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You made the case for the Moral Law of God -- in the OT

Originally Posted by PaladinValer
The Ritual/Holiness laws and the Social laws are out. The Moral laws are still very much in play. We are freed from the first two types because of Christ, but He made it clear that we are under no freedom from being a morally right people.

I point out that almost every denomination on the planet admits that the moral law of God in the OT - includes the Ten Commandments --

I said nothing more than that.

The specific validity or invalidity of Sabbatarianism isn't part of this thread. The Old Testament in general is.

You seem to be saying that if we admit to the Ten Commandments as being included in the moral law of God in the OT - there is a problem or it should not be mentioned on the GT section??

in Christ,

Bob
 
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SAAN

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this will soon end up in the Sabbath in law section, in which the usual folks there will accuse you of
Rejecting grace by bringing up the law or any sort of commandment saying you must obey God.

it will then be followed by multiple scriptures in regard to the law taken out of context, it being abolished, nailed to the cross, or the famous Christians aren't obligated to follow commands of God.
 
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BobRyan

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If the mere mention of God's Ten Commandments is fearful -- then think of them as the "moral law of God" in the OT -- and have less fear. I don't know of a single denomination on the planet that is unaware that the Ten Commandments are in the OT and were the moral law of God in the OT. This is in fact the stated position of the RCC.
 
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Bro.T

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Sadly, many Christians today are completely ignorant of the OT scriptures and especially the prophets which are a significant part of the foundation of the church of God..

The Apostle to the Gentiles warns men about this although from what I see here in the forum.. men could not care less what the LORD has said in the OT and even the NT in many places.. and therefore everyone becomes wise in their own conceits.. claiming ridiculous things like they are Israel... the new and improved spiritual version.

Sad really.. but hey, it's not like the word of God matters to these people.





I agree and understand what you are saying. Most people are taught the word of God in a doctrine form, so instead they rely on that way of understanding. In the scriptures its written in Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. The OT works hand in hand with the NT, so without having then both, Isaiah says, "there is no light in them."









 
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ViaCrucis

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Is the Old Testament done away with? No, all Christians receive the Holy Scriptures in two parts: the Old and New Testaments.

The better question is are Christians subject to the commandments of the Torah? And the answer to that question has been, since the beginning of Christianity, a resounding no. The Torah was only ever given to the Jews as part of the covenant God made with them at Sinai, as such it never extended to non-Jews; and according to Christianity with the coming of God's Messiah there is a new and better covenant that is, indeed, for all people--that which is the fulfillment of all prior covenants, the covenants God made with Abraham, with Israel, and with David. All things are fulfilled in Jesus who is the Christ, our Lord.

So no, the Torah is not applicable to Christians because it was never given to Christians. That is why throughout the New Testament we read, for example, "circumision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing" or that we are to not allow others to judge us on matters such as sabbaths, holy days, what we eat, or what we drink.

There is, indeed, a Law by which we are held accountable, but it's not the Torah. It is the Moral Law of God, such as where our Lord commands, "Love your enemies" or "Turn the other cheek" or "Love one another even as I have loved you", and especially the Great Commandment: "Love the Lord your God with all your strength, with all your mind, with all your soul; and love your neighbor as yourself."

Indeed there remains Law, and it condemns us in our sins. Which is why we do not trust in our righteousness, but in the righteousness of Jesus Christ by whom we are freely justified by the grace of God, through faith, according to the solemn promise of God. For there is no one, says the Psalmist (and St. Paul quoting the Psalmist) that is righteous, no one that is good, no one who seeks after God, we have all turned away, following our own way, all have fallen short of the glory of God. There is therefore hope found exclusively in Christ, who by His death and resurrection reconciles us to the Father, being Himself the peace between God and sinners. In whom we trust, and believe, looking forward--in Him--to the final day when we shall be raised incorruptible to share in the eternal life that is to come, world without end.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ThatTrueLight

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I agree and understand what you are saying. Most people are taught the word of God in a doctrine form, so instead they rely on that way of understanding. In the scriptures its written in Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. The OT works hand in hand with the NT, so without having then both, Isaiah says, "there is no light in them."

It shows up in thread after thread and of course everyone thinks that they're Israel and the real Israel isn't.

It often comes down to ignorance and in some cases willfully ignoring the simple truth. Some even reject crystal clear statements in the NT with respect to Israel's temporary blindness.. as if it doesn't mean what it says in simplicity and in truth.

But then again, many Christians can't be corrected once they latch onto the belief that they're the spiritual Israel.. which literally comes down to one thing when you think it through.. they must think that they're better than the Israelites in the OT.
 
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Bro.T

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I dont see the law as having passed away but i think perhaps it is part of Gods great mystery. Perhaps it speaks mysteries. Paul seems to talk about may thing we don't understand, yet this should not cause us to become weary but instead should cause us to dig deep into the Word by study, prayer, meditation and fellowship. Having said that, i think all that a believer needs to follow is that which The Apostles teach us to follow. If we do that then our eyes will be opened and we will see much value in the OT. However if we start out trying to follow the OT instead, we will not understand what we are trying to follow. Just my opinion.





I agree with what you saying, but I would advise people to read the whole Bible, start in Genesis, and to continue over and over. It would takes years to understand, maybe a life time. Also I would recommend people to learn the Bible by Subjects and Titles. Lets go into Ecclesiastes 12:9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. 12:10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

Pay attention...because this is protocol to understanding the word of God. Lets add in the prophet Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

From Genesis to Revelation brothers and sisters...this is how the word of God is to be understood. Now lets add the major piece to the puzzle. Lets go into Luke 4: 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Lets skip down to verse 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way, 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

So we have to search this word out brothers and sisters, now notice, when Jesus went in the synagogues on the sabbath day which is the seventh day of the week, he pick up the Bible and read the prophet Isaiah. But now we have both books OT and NT to read on the sabbath day, this is what you suppose to do. Anything other then this is something else.





 
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ViaCrucis

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It often comes down to ignorance and in some cases willfully ignoring the simple truth. Some even reject crystal clear statements in the NT with respect to Israel's temporary blindness.. as if it doesn't mean what it says in simplicity and in truth.

It really amazes me that you can say these things without even a hint of irony. Because the irony here is staggeringly off the charts. You are routinely offered Scripture and dismiss all Scripture that doesn't conform to your prefigured conclusions. You criticize everyone else of being willfully ignorant and refusing to heed the simple meaning of Scripture all the while refusing to learn, refusing to be corrected, and refusing to take Scripture seriously.

If I didn't think you were coming from a legitimate place of sincerity, the only rational conclusion would be to call you out as a troll.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Bro.T

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If the mere mention of God's Ten Commandments is fearful -- then think of them as the "moral law of God" in the OT -- and have less fear. I don't know of a single denomination on the planet that is unaware that the Ten Commandments are in the OT and were the moral law of God in the OT. This is in fact the stated position of the RCC.



Yeah...I see what you are saying, but, now any Christian in their right mind wouldn't dare say that it’s okay to steal, kill or commit adultery or break any of the other seven commandments. But when it comes to the fourth commandment, people avoid it like a plague! They are either uninformed about which day is the Sabbath day of the God of the Bible or they are just following the tradition of religion that was passed down through the family or maybe they have let some preacher give them other excuses for ignoring God’s true day of worship.




 
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