Is the left holding them hostage?

Rhamiel

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I seriously doubt that any of us posting in this thread are in the moral position to judge other people when we each have a plank in our own eye. As it has often been said, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. There is not one of us here who is without sin, so no one here has the right to cast the first stone.
I was not throwing any stones
a poster said he did not understand how a bunch of descriptions fit together
so I tried to walk through them one by one and address his concerns
I am not casting stones at anyone, I am no moral beacon, I was just trying to explain something I understood to someone who seemed to miss the point


In my opinion the Church should and does define sacramental marriage in line with Catholic teaching. However, I personally can't see the need in opposing gay marriage everywhere and for everyone.
the Church also has an understanding of what a "natural marriage" is
for example, jews, muslims or atheists can never have a sacramental marriage, but we do recognize their union as a "natural marriage"
a homosexual couple are not able to have a natural marriage because they do not fulfil the requirements (one being that even a natural marriage is between a man and a woman)
 
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FrancesJames

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well when you pile it all together like that it does sound nonsensical

I'm glad we agree. And if it doesn't make sense then it's not true.

lets walk thought these statements one by one

Because talking about them one by one will somehow suddenly make these statements make sense?

gay people are intrinsically disordered
accurate, homosexuality, like all temptations, is a disordered passion, where we wish for something that is not good, either an excess or a deficit or a perversion of a good

I'm working very hard not to ridicule this statement and you for having said it because . . . ugh. Just because.

Don't think I didn't notice that you're being very careful to frame my orientation as a "temptation." It's a very clever semantic spell you're weaving that of course falls apart once under any real amount of rational scrutiny: First of all, is homosexuality a temptation? No. It is an orientation. Can a homosexual be tempted by people of the same gender? Yes. Just like heterosexuals are tempted by people of the opposite gender--however, did you happen to notice at any time that heterosexuality is not itself a temptation?

Romans 1:26 refers to homosexual temptation/acts as "degrading passions" and "unnatural", so "intrinsically disordered" is kind of a polite way of putting it.

Wow, I'll admit you made me look that one up and for a moment almost made me think, "Wow, this guy might actually have a point." But you ruined it by obfuscating the truth, and I hate it when people try to mislead me. Now, I'm aware that you may have been ignorant of this because a lot of Bible translations translate this passage in this way, but I'm a guy who likes to do my research before giving assent to an idea. Wanna know what I found out? I'll give you one guess. Actually, this is an internet forum and can't see your reaction so instead I'll just tell you:

Turns out that, while my Greek is pretty rusty, pointedly and crucially: Greek had a term for homosexual at that time that would have been a ubiquitous term--which is to say that Paul, a native Greek speaker, would have been aware of this term; not only does Paul not use that term here, he doesn't use it anywhere.

The term Paul's using here is so singular that it appears nowhere else in Greek.

Now sure, I'll agree that that giving yourself up to shameful lusts is wrong, but that's not what I'm facing in my daily life, thank you. Homosexuality is not unnatural unless you redefine the term natural.

Anyway . . . that's enough mincing for now . . .
 
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tadoflamb

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I guess I feel squeezed by both sides. On one hand, the whole reason I'm here is because of the rhetoric of the right of which the article in the OP was an unfortunate reminder.

On the other hand, historically I haven't had a lot to say on the issue due to pressures from the left.

At the art store I work at, we also do some picture framing. Recently we had this quaint little painting come through of a green manatee and a purple porpoise. The manatee and the porpoise were holding fins and they were playing footsie with their tails. They each were wearing a bridal veil type of thing on top of each their heads. I was pretty easy to tell the deeper implications of the painting.

Now, my Catholic boss and I could have refused to frame such a painting but neither of us wants to go to get sued out of business or forced into a re-education camp and we're both confident enough in our eternal salvation that our souls can take the hit (we've got indulgences stacked up like cord wood), so we do the work peacefully and hand over the finished piece with a smile. However, our silence should not be interpreted in any way as an endorsement for same sex marriage. As I ponder the piece of artwork in question, I find it reflects keenly my belief about gay marriage. Like green manatees and purple porpoises, it simply doesn't exist.

Feed me to the lions, I don't think I could ever change my mind.
 
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FrancesJames

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No one here is going to feed you to the lions for stating your opinion. I may have my own thoughts on that subject that are directly opposed to yours. The only thing I can think of to say in the face of your statement is this: I'll see you at Communion.
 
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tadoflamb

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No one here is going to feed you to the lions for stating your opinion. I may have my own thoughts on that subject that are directly opposed to yours. The only thing I can think of to say in the face of your statement is this: I'll see you at Communion.

Thanks FJ. If I wasn't comfortable posting here I wouldn't have said anything. Like I said, I've largely remained silent on this topic and I'm happy to remain that way.
 
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tadoflamb

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I would never feed you to the lions, Tad.

You have earned my respect, so as far as I am concerned, you are safe from being used as lion food.

You are a good and honorable person, Tad.

And thank you, Red Fox. It's come as a surprise to me how much I've come out my shell lately. It tells me I've been missing something in my life regarding faith and fellowship.
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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I was not throwing any stones
a poster said he did not understand how a bunch of descriptions fit together
so I tried to walk through them one by one and address his concerns
I am not casting stones at anyone, I am no moral beacon, I was just trying to explain something I understood to someone who seemed to miss the point



the Church also has an understanding of what a "natural marriage" is
for example, jews, muslims or atheists can never have a sacramental marriage, but we do recognize their union as a "natural marriage"
a homosexual couple are not able to have a natural marriage because they do not fulfil the requirements (one being that even a natural marriage is between a man and a woman)
That's basically what I have a hard time accepting, that there is a natural marriage that transcends religious beliefs that still restricts marriage to a man and woman. Maybe the best way to put it, it outside of certain religious beliefs, I don't see any secular argument against gay marriage.
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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I guess I feel squeezed by both sides. On one hand, the whole reason I'm here is because of the rhetoric of the right of which the article in the OP was an unfortunate reminder.

On the other hand, historically I haven't had a lot to say on the issue due to pressures from the left.

At the art store I work at, we also do some picture framing. Recently we had this quaint little painting come through of a green manatee and a purple porpoise. The manatee and the porpoise were holding fins and they were playing footsie with their tails. They each were wearing a bridal veil type of thing on top of each their heads. I was pretty easy to tell the deeper implications of the painting.

Now, my Catholic boss and I could have refused to frame such a painting but neither of us wants to go to get sued out of business or forced into a re-education camp and we're both confident enough in our eternal salvation that our souls can take the hit (we've got indulgences stacked up like cord wood), so we do the work peacefully and hand over the finished piece with a smile. However, our silence should not be interpreted in any way as an endorsement for same sex marriage. As I ponder the piece of artwork in question, I find it reflects keenly my belief about gay marriage. Like green manatees and purple porpoises, it simply doesn't exist.

Feed me to the lions, I don't think I could ever change my mind.
Seems like a good way to be, holding on to your convictions and neither endorsing nor refusing.
 
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Rhamiel

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That's basically what I have a hard time accepting, that there is a natural marriage that transcends religious beliefs that still restricts marriage to a man and woman

the basic building block of a society is a family

families come from men and women making children

this is true for Catholics, this is true for every other religion

so there are natural marriages that lead to natural families

it is not based on some esoteric philosophy (though there are many others who can go into deeper understanding of it them me)
it is based on biology

like the 10 commandments say "honor your father and mother" but we hold this as something not particular to Christianity or Judaism?
most people see this as a universal ideal
 
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Rhamiel

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Now sure, I'll agree that that giving yourself up to shameful lusts is wrong, but that's not what I'm facing in my daily life, thank you. Homosexuality is not unnatural unless you redefine the term natural.

redefine it from what?

I am using Natural in the context of natural law philosophy, something that has a deep tradition in the Church and Western Culture in general

it seems like other people have redefined what is "natural" to justify sins that have always been spoken against by Christians
 
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FrancesJames

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redefine it from what?

I am using Natural in the context of natural law philosophy, something that has a deep tradition in the Church and Western Culture in general

I figured you were. This is a special context of the word natural and does contain, what I would call, a redefinition of the word natural.

it seems like other people have redefined what is "natural" to justify sins that have always been spoken against by Christians

Hey! I'll take a pig to the butcher when I want bologna! The word natural--in just about every context other than in it's special snowflake usage that you're appropriating--is a term that means "it's occurring in nature." This isn't some special off-the-wall definition of the word natural; this is the word natural at it's most basic function. Homosexuality is natural.

Since you seem to be lacking some better counter argument I'll endevour to do some of the work for you.

If someone were to say that homosexuality were natural, you could have come back at me with, "Well, for animals to kill or eat their young is also natural but we don't consider that good. Animals also, in general, will murder members of their own species, but we don't consider that good. Insects such as cockroaches will engage in cannibalism and eat each other when they have nothing else, but we don't consider that good. Rape, incest, fratricide, matricide etc. etc. are all part of the natural world but are not themselves good simply for being natural."

That would have been an excellent counter argument. I don't know where you learned what you do seem to know about St. Thomas Aquinas' beautiful masterpiece Summa Theologica but I can't believe you read it with all that much attention to the parts that didn't support you position or with an attempt to analyse his arguments in any depth. You've contemplated his work for what I can only surmise is the span of 15 minutes and think you've come to some interesting conclusions? Don't read his work with an agenda in mind. Aquinas loved to engage with his students and he would have hated it that people read his book as a textbook containing dogma. The Church did not initially dogmatise his work here at all as his text was primarily a fascinating discourse.
 
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FrancesJames

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I would never feed you to the lions, Tad.

You have earned my respect, so as far as I am concerned, you are safe from being used as lion food.

You are a good and honorable person, Tad.

Those lions are getting hungry, though . . .
 
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the basic building block of a society is a family

families come from men and women making children

this is true for Catholics, this is true for every other religion

so there are natural marriages that lead to natural families

it is not based on some esoteric philosophy (though there are many others who can go into deeper understanding of it them me)
it is based on biology

like the 10 commandments say "honor your father and mother" but we hold this as something not particular to Christianity or Judaism?
most people see this as a universal ideal
I guess in my opinion I see natural law as focused around consent and things that allow people to live communally in harmony. People don't do well as individuals, our survival is based on an ability to work together in groups. So natural law in my view would include not killing, not stealing, etc. I have a hard time adding acts between consenting adults to that. That's just where I'm at on this, and why I'm pro life (an unborn baby can't consent to losing its life) but not anti gay marriage. Although I am against forcing the Church to perform sacramental marriages against their teachings.
 
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FrancesJames

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Some interesting ideas here concerning Natural Law and since it's been brought up let me try to bring up some relevant points.

To begin, Natural Law is a philosophy which takes the position that rights (since law is concerned with rights) and values (since the Church is concerned with morality) are implicit by nature—in a sense, inherent—which can be distilled through the use of reason (in other words, if it's not rational it's not natural law). In short, this historical model of natural law attempts to use reason to determine what is part of human nature and then use that knowledge to discern morality. I wish to make a point here of stating that this law of nature was to be determined by nature.

One important distinction that I need to make right off is that natural law and divine law are not the same. Divine law proceeds from God and natural law proceeds from nature. God created nature and did so, giving it an essential essence—an essential nature, if you will—that is good and proceeds from the divine while not being, in itself, divine. Goodness, of course, is a divine quality but does not necessarily proceed from the Holy. For example: Aquinas taught that morality has two components to it—correct action and correct motive. Performing an act of charity to impress someone is not a moral action; behaving well because you're in a crowd and are afraid to appear foolish is also immoral. Likewise, performing an immoral act for a good motive is also wrong.

Eternal law is yet another distinction whose delineation is important for a reason I'll get to in a moment. Eternal law is understood to be the binding law that God has set out for the whole universe; and humanity's participation in eternal law is what we finally come to understand as natural law and, according to Aquinas, is to be uncovered through the use of reason. To quote the Saint, "All the inclinations of any parts whatsoever of human nature, e.g., of the concupiscible and irascible parts, in so far as they are ruled by reason, belong to the natural law, and are reduced to one first precept, as stated above: so that the precepts of the natural law are many in themselves, but are based on one common foundation."

It was also Aquinas' understanding that all human tendencies are geared toward real human goods. In this context, my ability to fall in love with only men is a tendency which is at base good because it is geared toward what might be understood as the actual good of what we call romantic love—having a wife and children. Aquinas, in this matter, seems to have understood the word love to mean "to will the good of another."

In order to know what is right, you have to use reason and apply it to Aquinas' precepts.

Aquinas explains that "there belongs to the natural law, first, certain most general precepts, that are known to all; and secondly, certain secondary and more detailed precepts, which are, as it were, conclusions following closely from first principles. As to those general principles, the natural law, in the abstract, can nowise be blotted out from men's hearts. But it is blotted out in the case of a particular action, insofar as reason is hindered from applying the general principle to a particular point of practice, on account of concupiscence or some other passion, as stated above (77, 2). But as to the other, i.e., the secondary precepts, the natural law can be blotted out from the human heart, either by evil persuasions, just as in speculative matters errors occur in respect of necessary conclusions; or by vicious customs and corrupt habits, as among some men, theft, and even unnatural vices, as the Apostle states (Rm. i), were not esteemed sinful."

So primary precepts cannot be blotted out but the secondary ones can be.

In the case of homosexuality, it has been said that the act is intrinsically disordered. The follow up question is, On the basis of what? The response often given is that homosexual acts are not ordered toward procreation to which the response might be, Neither are those acts between infertile couples. At this juncture, the goal posts are usually shifted and the response is usually to say, But the union must be OPEN to procreation. To which a respondent might ask, Why?

Why is it imperative that a union be open to procreation? Why is the use of sex for pleasure—though, let's be honest: sex between loving and committed couples (even infertile ones) is never "just for pleasure" since there's obviously an expression of devout affection in the act—wrong?

Because sex is meant to be ordered toward procreation, is often the answer.

The response here is to ask, Then why do we feel pleasure? We feel pleasure, and this is part in parcel with Catholic teaching, because it has the effect of directing the human being toward that which is good!

Other writers such as St. Augustine (bless his soul—I love him, but I think he was dead wrong in at least this one particular) posited that sex in the Garden of Eden was initially without pleasure. His detractors came back and said, Well then how did Adam and Eve have sex (according to God's command, Be fruitful and multiply) if before the Fall there were no pleasure? More pointedly, they asked how Adam could have even achieved an erection without pleasure? Augustine's response was, and I'm not joking here, "By sheer willpower!"

The argument is, as far as I'm concerned, dead in the water. The idea that sex should be pleasureless or that seeking pleasure is an intrinsic evil is ridiculous. It can be directed toward evil, sure, in that it can lead you to seek out material goods rather than spiritual ones; however, there is little room to see sex between a loving couple—even a gay couple—as disordered on the basis of its not-being-open-to-life. There's much more to sex than that and much more to human relationships.

I also have some problem with the term homosexual acts because often times that's left open—though we generally take that to mean physical acts of a sexual nature. If I had a partner and were married to a man, would that be a homosexual act? Technically, yes--it is the act of getting married. How about the act of loving? Forget sexual acts, a caress or a kiss could be, to some, perceived as a mortal sin that would send me straight to Hell.

So suffice it to say that I see enough problems not necessarily with natural law but certainly with its application; and many in the Church desperate to toe the party line will use natural law to mean whatever they want it to mean--in this case to condemn people.
 
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Rhamiel

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Since you seem to be lacking some better counter argument I'll endevour to do some of the work for you.

If someone were to say that homosexuality were natural, you could have come back at me with, "Well, for animals to kill or eat their young is also natural but we don't consider that good. Animals also, in general, will murder members of their own species, but we don't consider that good. Insects such as cockroaches will engage in cannibalism and eat each other when they have nothing else, but we don't consider that good. Rape, incest, fratricide, matricide etc. etc. are all part of the natural world but are not themselves good simply for being natural."

I did not want to insult or scandalize anyone here by comparing the actions of homosexuals to animals, and especially not to animals that eat their own young or cannibalize each other
so I tried to just compare it to more understandable issues such as greed or envy

before when this issue came up I used something closer to the argument that you outlined
but comparing homosexual acts to a bear who eats its young, well that tends to sap any ounce of charity out of the conversation
and I would not want that to happen

as for the assumption that Romans 1:26 is not about homosexuality, we can also see that in the following verse is also about it
we have to read it in context
now we could say that this covers far MORE then just homosexual relations, that is understandable, we do not want to dumb down or pigeonhole Scripture

the very next following verse has this
Romans 1:27
"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Because talking about them one by one will somehow suddenly make these statements make sense?

I'm glad we agree. And if it doesn't make sense then it's not true.

sometimes things can be over simplified or stated in a way that do not make sense, or things that might appear as "common sense" might just be mistaken
for example, take the comment "if you skip breakfast you will loose weight" that seems like common sense, you are eating less food so the pounds will drop off?
but then if you look at it a little deeper, you see that skipping breakfast will mess with the metabolism and make it harder to loose weight
or I could hold up a rock and say "this is mostly empty space" well that comment sounds crazy, but a little understanding of physics will allow you to understand that the nucleus of an atom is very small compared to the vast electron cloud that surrounds it, so everything we think of as "solid" is really mostly empty space

so those comments do make sense, when you view them with a little understanding of theology, just as the other statements make sense when you understand biology or physics
 
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FrancesJames

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I did not want to insult or scandalize anyone here by comparing the actions of homosexuals to animals, and especially not to animals that eat their own young or cannibalize each other
so I tried to just compare it to more understandable issues such as greed or envy

Well, I'm adult enough to handle the material that might come out in the course of a discussion.

before when this issue came up I used something closer to the argument that you outlined
but comparing homosexual acts to a bear who eats its young, well that tends to sap any ounce of charity out of the conversation
and I would not want that to happen

Well, I don't think that there's any charity in that argument either

as for the assumption that Romans 1:26 is not about homosexuality, we can also see that in the following verse is also about it
we have to read it in context
now we could say that this covers far MORE then just homosexual relations, that is understandable, we do not want to dumb down or pigeonhole Scripture

the very next following verse has this
Romans 1:27
"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

I know what it says. I read the whole thing; but now that you bring it up, there is a delineation that that I would like to suggest here and that is that, while Greek has a word for homosexuality and Paul never uses it, it is entirely possible, and this has indeed been put forth by scholars more learned in the material than I, that this is a specific homosexual practice tied to idolatry rather than aiming at all homosexuality.

sometimes things can be over simplified or stated in a way that do not make sense, or things that might appear as "common sense" might just be mistaken

I can agree there.

for example, take the comment "if you skip breakfast you will loose weight" that seems like common sense, you are eating less food so the pounds will drop off?
but then if you look at it a little deeper, you see that skipping breakfast will mess with the metabolism and make it harder to loose weight
or I could hold up a rock and say "this is mostly empty space" well that comment sounds crazy, but a little understanding of physics will allow you to understand that the nucleus of an atom is very small compared to the vast electron cloud that surrounds it, so everything we think of as "solid" is really mostly empty space

I understand what you're trying to say. Boiling it down, you're talking about things being counter intuitive. The trouble is that even if you proved to me that Paul were definitely 100% for sure talking about homosexuality I'd simply put that in the column of Bible verses I don't believe anymore. Every day we thwart Paul's lessons in allowing nuns to teach in schools as well as allowing men and women equality and marriage; we really ignore his exhortation to not get married which, in his opinion, was something people should only do if they could no longer control their lust while today, of course, we marry for love.

So let us suppose for a moment that he were talking about all homosexuality--why this verse? Why this verse and not others? I don't see it.

so those comments do make sense, when you view them with a little understanding of theology, just as the other statements make sense when you understand biology or physics

Maybe to you they make sense in context--they do not make sense to me. I feel as though you thought this argument was going to convince me and that I would some how find it logical. Just because the Bible says something doesn't make it rational. Space isn't filled with water, pi isn't exactly three, the sun cannot be stopped in the sky, the world doesn't rest on four pillars etc. etc.

If the sum of your attempt at a rational argument only goes as far as your ability to argue the for the literal understanding of the material (i.e., because the Bible says it you should believe it) then you're going to have a lot of trouble convincing me of the opposite because I don't necessarily read the Bible in a way that lines up with your criteria. How about the fact that Biblical scholars from the classical era were the initiators of the development of the fourfold method of scriptural interpretation? How about the fact that many Biblical scholars who read the Bible often tried to get a sense of the lesson rather than necessarily the literal meaning? So, there're a lot of theological ideas out there, a large body of work, and the fact of the matter is that theology has usually moved away from the understanding you seem to be trying to present. Natural law doesn't rely on the Bible in the same way that you do here to make your argument. There are the concepts of scripture and tradition, yes, but usually supplemented with argument, debate, and discernment and I don't see much of that in your presentation.
 
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Feed me to the lions, but........
I'd like to make that a TOL template or preface to anything I say when I feel in disagreement with another poster.
I wonder if the Christian martyrs used that one.
 
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