Is the gospel just grace?

[Soyeong]

Galations 5:3 I am testifying yet again to every man circumcising, that debtor he is whole the law to do.

James 2:10 For whosoever whole the law should be keeping should be stumbling yet in one has become of all liable.

In the context of that discussion the person who posted that Paul was keeping "the law" was referring to the entire Israelite law (in this case Acts 21 was in view which included vows, sacrifices, etc.)

Adventists on the other hand generally advocate the ten commandments, but not all the law of Moses as something still to be kept. Some may also include food and hygeine laws. They do not however keep feasts, new moons, etc.

There are a minority of Adventists who do keep feasts,but they are not the norm.


When dealing with conversations that involve both MJ and SDA it is sometimes necessary to remind the SDA that they are not of the same position as the Messianics in regards to the law. So when a Messianic posts that Paul kept the law, and an SDA says "amen", they are often saying "amen" to something different than they first thought.

Adventists often think of the 10 commandments as enduring moral law, and make a vast distinction between the 10 on stone and the book of Moses.

But then when Adventists see "the law" they tend to read back in only the ten commandments. That is often not accurate.


For instance, Adventists may often quote Matthew 5 to demonstrate that the law has not passed away. But in doing so they overlook that Jesus quotes not just from the 10 commandments, but other sections of the law.

Yes, Jesus references the commandments about murder and adultery. But He also talks about oaths, eye for eye, etc.

When we break any part of the law is that means that we will not be justified by it and that we are in need of forgiveness. The law was never given so that we could become justified by keeping it, so that part isn't a problem.

I think if Ellen White had said to keep the God's Feasts that SDA's would now be keeping them.

 

[Soyeong]

The Jewish culture of Jesus' day no longer exists, relying on the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth is the best bet.

We have examples from Jewish literature for how they used the term. Indeed, we should let the Holy Spirit guide us, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to the context. The Bible is how we test the spirits, so if something is leading you away from obeying God, then it's not from God.

 

[Soyeong]

IOW we're yoked to the bondage of the law. What a load of garbage.

bugkiller

We have been set from transgressing the law so that we could be free to not transgress the law.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We have examples from Jewish literature for how they used the term. Indeed, we should let the Holy Spirit guide us, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to the context. The Bible is how we test the spirits, so if something is leading you away from obeying God, then it's not from God.

I think, what i'm pointing at is a growth thing. Because of this, there is no "we" in this conversation, but I know what you mean. I've been there.

 

[listed]

We have been set from transgressing the law so that we could be free to not transgress the law.

That is correct. We can not transgress the law because we are set free from it.

 

[listed]

We have examples from Jewish literature for how they used the term. Indeed, we should let the Holy Spirit guide us, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to the context. The Bible is how we test the spirits, so if something is leading you away from obeying God, then it's not from God.

Yes and we have the New Covenant which is not given at Mt Sinai. It is different.

 

[Open Heart]

In Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19, it says that Gentiles were once alienated from Israel, but are now fellow citizens.

No, it is talking about the COMMONWEALTH of Israel. There were always Gentiles that resided in the Land, but were not Israel. The commonwealth is a much bigger circle with the smaller circle of Israel in side of it. Gentile believers are in the part of the Big circle that is outside the smaller circle. IOW Gentile believers are part of the COMMONWEALTH, but NOT part of ISRAEL.

So tell me Soyeong, you want to keep the 613. Do you only eat certified kosher meat? You realize that it has to have kosher slaughter in order to be kosher. I'm just wondering how far you go with this. Do you wear only men's suits that are certified not to have linen threads used for stitching a wool blend?

 

[Open Heart]

In 1 Peter 2:8-9, it says that Gentiles and now included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, and a royal priesthood, so Gentiles should conduct themselves accordingly.

The chosen people that Gentile believers are part of are THE PEOPLE OF GOD, not Israel. And the laws that they follow are the laws that Gentiles have always had to follow since Adam. NOT the 613.

 

[Open Heart]

From a Lutheran perspective obedience is about Law, not Gospel. The Gospel is unilaterally God coming down to man in man's weakness, inability, and sin. The Law is what we are supposed to do, how we are supposed to live. The Gospel contains no commandments, only promises; commandments are a matter of the Law. Which is why the Law has no saving power, and obedience to God's commandments can merit us nothing--for we remain fiercely unrighteous before the all-holiness of God's just commands. We are therefore justified solely by the good kindness of the God who humbles Himself to death on the cross, rising from the dead triumphant over sin, death, hell, and the devil lifting us with Him by His generous love toward us.

-CryptoLutheran

Are you saying that Lutherans don't teach right and wrong as part of Christianity?

 

[Open Heart]

A covenant is a conditional contractual agreement that is tied to obedience. A contractual agreement can be made null and void if any person rejects the author of that covenant, who is God.

The bible narrative is summarised in three distinct words:

1) False Accusations the devil makes against God and man.
2) The spiritual conflict that ensues where God is left no choice but to defeat satan by silencing his false accusations being made against him
3) Purpose driven covenant that must be adhered to so that the false accusations are silenced by defeating them by the blood covenant and not by force.

Accusations ----->. Conflict -----> Contract/Covenant to resolve conflict

If a person doesn't stay within the conditional stipulates of the contractual blood covenant/agreement, then that person is left open to these flying accusations and therefore has condemnation upon their heads by the ideas brought forth by the false accuser satan.

God has given his very own blood as a seal of protection against all the devil's accusations and has silenced him forever, as long as people stay within his blood covenant of protection.

God will charge anyone NOT abiding in his contractual blood covenant as siding with satan. This charge is laid upon those who don't abide in it.

It is clear that satan lies by bringing false accusations against God and uses man as an excuse to attack God's character with a false idea arising from satan's putrid selfishness. This selfishness manifests into the murder of man, because satan speaks of his own, meaning his own desires of his heart by using man to attack the righteousness of God through false ideas that were seeded in the first recipients Adam and Eve and continue to this very day.

Man can be satan's advocate by also seeking and speaking their OWN hearts desires and therefore leaves them open to being charged by God as either being satan or satan's children.

Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns

The bible is a story of accusations leading to the great conflict between God and man which satan instrumented and resulting in the blood covenant that was necessary to silence satan once and for all times.

Anyone that doesn't have the covering of blood just like the people of Egypt during ancient Israel, then God must destroy them, maybe not in this life to be seen of men as a physical lesson to be taught, but rather that they will be sent into outer darkness after their physicial body dies.

To not adhere to God's blood covenant is a definite death sentence for the soul. There is no grace nor protection against those outside of this contractual blood covenant/agreement and anyone trying to bypass this covenant/agreement is becoming a recipient of the charge made by Jesus:

Jesus turned and said to WHOEVER, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.

The OP quote below is a human concern/idea, nothing to do with the question of faith:

"In an age where so many species are dying out, when resources are becoming scarce and contaminated by pollution, when our future is threatened by Climate Change, how are we to address this as Christians? What under these new circumstances is right and what is wrong? At least the Pope is on task trying to teach us."

It is not the question of being right or wrong as the OP claims:

"The essence of the mistake this evangelical author makes is that there is no place in his gospel for teaching right and wrong"

OP said:

"many species are dying out, when resources are becoming scarce and contaminated by pollution, when our future is threatened by Climate Change, how are we to address this as Christians?"

Christians care for faith and to upholding the contractual agreement / covenant signed in God's blood.

The world at large is either in contract with God or are satan's tools for using false arguments in his selfish pursuit in attacking God's character.

Just like when you are employed within a company you are employed under contract and you can't decide to bring others in your work place if they have not entered employment by the contract of the employer.

What exactly are people advocating here?

Bringing others alongside Christianity without them needing to be in contract with God.

This would be lawlessness to the extreme!

I have no idea what ANY of this had to do with the quote you replied to.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you saying that Lutherans don't teach right and wrong as part of Christianity?

No. I'm saying that Lutherans make a strict distinction between Law and Gospel. We preach the Law the Law and the Gospel as the Gospel. In his Heidelberg Disputation Luther writes,

"The law says, 'do this', and it is never done. Grace says, 'believe in this', and everything is already done."

God's Law does not simply refer to the 613 mitzvot of Torah but rather describes the totality of God's moral commandments, summed up in the Great Commandment, "Love the Lord your God ... love your neighbor as yourself." Thus everything from "Do not murder" to "Love your enemy as yourself" etc is Law. The Law is what God commands, the Gospel on the other hand is what God freely gives and promises.

We then speak about the "Uses of the Law",

"Since the Law was given to men for three reasons: first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life," Epitome of the Formula of Concord, Article VI.1

Breaking it down:

1) The Law constrains sin.
2) The Law reveals to us our sinful estate.
3) The Law guides us on how we, as God's people, ought to conduct our lives in humble obedience.

It is this Second Use that is, arguably, the most important for Lutherans; indeed the Third Use serves to point us back to the Second Use; whereby we are truly aware of our fallen selves, broken before a righteous and holy God, on our knees in repentance. That we are helplessly and hopelessly, by our own power and strength, sinners and wretches and our possession of ourselves is not righteousness and holiness as God expects of us, but this weak flesh which, if left to ourselves, would certainly condemn us a thousand times over. It is here that the Gospel is preached in its boldness, that when we were still yet sinners Christ died for us, that Christ came for the unwell and the unrighteous, that this is a trustworthy saying worthy of full acceptance that Christ came to save sinners, and that we are the chief of sinners. That by Christ's obedience and death on the cross and by His glorious resurrection He has taken hold of us sinners and redeemed us, granting to us eternal pardon and peace with God. And by Him, through the faith God so graciously gives us, we are freely justified and made holy; not of our own righteousness or our own holiness, but the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ that is ours, graciously, from God. This He grants to our hearts, freely, by the preaching of the Gospel, that whoever believes upon Jesus Christ is truly and really saved.

The Law condemns.
The Gospel saves.

The Law reveals wrath.
The Gospel reveals grace.

The Law drives us to our knees.
The Gospel lifts us up.

The Law destroys the flesh.
The Gospel makes us new creatures.

Lutherans then believe we must preach both Law and Gospel. But rightly dividing between the two, preaching the Law as Law and the Gospel as Gospel. The Law rightly preached mortifies the flesh; the Gospel rightly preached brings salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Berean777]

I have no idea what ANY of this had to do with the quote you replied to.

Ok then, I will take that as my mistake.

 

[Open Heart]

but was law the answer?

as far as your OP title, it is called the gospel of????
Acts 20:24 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

Twice I've asked you, AND TWICE YOU HAVE REFUSED TO ANSWER whether the apostles made a mistake in teaching right from wrong.

Your obfuscation is sad, really. You give yourself the illusion that you are winning, but everyone else sees that you are running away from a simple truth.

Two requests are more than enough. I won't hound you over it anymore. Be at peace.

 

[Open Heart]

you keep some torah....

I keep the Torah that applies to me. Trust me, I've had years of training with the Orthodox. My standards are those of the Conservatives. That means I can still choose which foot to put the first shoe on.

 

[Open Heart]

The Jewish Christians in Antioch were not living ad Jews under Torah.

Why are you still arguing with me on this topic? You've said everything you have to say, and still you have not convinced me. Repetition is not an argument. Repeating the same argument over and over after a discussion is ended on a note of disagreement, that's just nagging.

 

[Open Heart]

some in the Hebrew roots movement think it sin to eat lobster, crab, pork, catfish, shrimp, etc, and think we must keep Jewish feasts too.

They mean well, but I disagree with them. Such laws are only for us Jews. They teach it is for everyone which is mistaken. Now if they wanted to say "I will keep kosher not out of obligation but out of love," I would have no problem with that. If they said, "I realize the 613 are not for Gentiles, but I so resonate with Israel that I want to take the covenant and be a Jew," I could simply refer them to UMJC for conversion to Messianic Judaism. But alas, that's not what they are saying.

 

[Open Heart]

That is how and why rules occasionally violate principle, and should be broken.

Absolutely. I think of it as a hierarchy of commandments with the rules at the bottom (like don't lie) and the principals at the top (such as love your neighbor as yourself).

 

[Open Heart]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. How does climate change apply to grace, atonement or salvation? For that matter what does it even have to do with theology.

bugkiller

Climate change has nothing to do with the gospel. HOW WE RESPOND TO THE PROBLEM (what is the right thing to do) is very much a part of the gospel in the larger sense. The apostles taught believers right from wrong. The Pope is doing no different--he's just applying God's principles to modern events, which we often need help with.

 

[Open Heart]

What exactly does that have to do with grace, atonement or salvation?

Are you going to be like Froggie and not answer the question (and then think you have scored a point)? iNSTEAD OF DEFLECTING, try answering the question.

 

[Open Heart]

No

Thank you for answering. That was really the only word I cared about. It is good to hear that the Pope has some good company when it comes to teaching right and wrong.