Is the Bible reliable? (2)

[BobRyan]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is the Bible reliable?"

 

[Calminian]

Regarding miracles

There's only one meaning, dude.

I would think this admission supports my original conclusion. If all events are miracles and there is only one meaning for miracles, then to claim all events are miracles of the same meaning, is to deny them all as well.

 

[BobRyan]

The resurrectionists, creationists, virgin-birth-ists, new birth-ists, Bible-believe-ists, will hall have it that these biblical historic accounts are to be trusted.

The evolutionists will have a problem at that point.

But not if those evolutionists are the sort of atheist that we find in many of the world class universities when it comes to admitting to the "kind of literature" that these historic accounts are - as we find them in the Bible.

reject even the most obvious statements in scripture.

Originally Posted by BobRyan ============================================
One leading Hebrew scholar is James Barr, Professor of Hebrew Bible at Vanderbilt University and former Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University in England. Although he does not believe in the historicity of Genesis 1, Dr. Barr does agree that the writer's intent was to narrate the actual history of primeval creation. Others also agree with him.

"Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; . . . Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.​

James Barr, letter to David Watson, 1984.
================================

 

[BobRyan]

After all these posts - and a lot of complaining about the Genesis 1 text - we have not one -- no not one that I have seen... not one single post trying negate the Genesis 1 statements on 7 days of creation by showing something in the text telling the readers to be sure and not accept the 7 day timeline given IN the text of this historical narrative giving us an account of creation week.

So for those needing some pointers on where to go to find that the text itself argues against its own 7 day timeline -- start here

=========================

Gen 1

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens

Ex 20:8-11 "SIX days you shall labor...for in SIX Days the Lord MADE ...."

Need even more help??

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. __________________

 

[BobRyan]

1. Even atheists will agree that Christians that accept the truthful historic account of the virgin birth, and the resurrection of Christ and the 7 day Creation week of Genesis 1 - are taking the Song of Solomon and much of the book of Revelation as symbolism, poetry etc.

If the atheists admit that this is what the Christians are doing -- those of us on this board should also be able to master that bit of observation of fact.

2. The idea that theological truth is contrary to historic accuracy is foreign to the bible. You need both.

3. The bible does not have to include every detail in all of time for us to then read and accept the virgin birth or the resurrection of Christ or the flood account or the Creation Week account of Genesis 1 summarized in Ex 20:11.

I think we all agree to that point without any problem at all.

4. If the Bible is a pack of lies because God entrusted men to write it and they did not know what they were doing - then we all have a huge problem as Christians - and the atheists win this particular point,

If the Bible is "nothing more than the best efforts of good men writing in a pre-scientific age - horribly flawed in their account of reality" then historic events like the virgin birth, resurrection of Christ, creation week and Law of God are all untrustworthy.

Efforts to marry the Bible to evolutionism - only destroy confidence in the Bible and does not help evolutionism.

==================================

Perhaps it is the "really easy questions" that lead people on both sides to admit to the Bible account as a historic account.

the really easy questions - like:

1. What timeline does the historical narrative of Genesis 1:2-2;3 present "in the text"?

2. Does the text itself argue against its own timeline? Even the legal code that summarises Genesis 1 in Ex 20:11 appeals to the same timeline.

3. is there anything other than an "external to the text" motive/agenda for bending the timeline give - to something more ambiguous and nonsensical?

 

[BobRyan]

Does the T.E. POV "need' to avoid the Bible when it talks about origins?

 

[BobRyan]

The issue of the Days in Genesis shows up in post #4 above - notice how the answer is often posted before the question?

For example -- recently the question.

Originally Posted by Percivale

It seems significant to me that in the one Psalm written by Moses, the traditional author of Genesis, he writes that a thousand years are like yesterday or like a watch in the night to God. Genesis one is the only passage where God is the only one acting, so it seems reasonable to me that Moses might have been using the word 'day' in that passage to refer to God's perspective: thousands of years passed, but that time was like a day to God. And science clearly confirms that reading of the passage.
​

The facts are pretty clear when it comes to the Bible.

No "confusion about days" between God and Moses

Ex 16
And Moses said to them, “This is the bread which the Lord has given you to eat. 16 This is the thing which the Lord has commanded: ‘Let every man gather it according to each one’s need, one omer for each person, according to the number of persons; let every man take for those who are in his tent.’”
17 Then the children of Israel did so and gathered, some more, some less. 18 So when they measured it by omers, he who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack. Every man had gathered according to each one’s need.



19 And Moses said, “Let no one leave any of it till morning.” 20 Notwithstanding they did not heed Moses. But some of them left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and stank. And Moses was angry with them. 21 So they gathered it every morning, every man according to his need. And when the sun became hot, it melted.
22 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” 24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”

27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days


There was NO Guessing about what a day meant when GOD said it - and Moses reported it. No not even when God spoke directly to the people.


Ex 20:8-11

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it




=========================


The Bible cannot be "imagined away" in service to blind faith evolutionism.



Because when it comes to "details" such this - well they are very clear.

 

[SkyWriting]

1. What timeline does the historical narrative of Genesis 1:2-2;3 present "in the text"?

The "Garden" had many interesting properties.
"Not affected by time or decay" was the most
interesting. A & E were originally immortal.

Adam was removed from the garden and the
gates were guarded.

Exact time frames are not applicable
nor of any importance. Creation week
was used as a model for humans
which we follow today.

 

[BobRyan]

"evening and morning were the nth" day - --

Even the Hebrew and OT professors of all world class universities know that the Gen 1-11 text is written as historic account - as the "kind of literature that it is".

Fine for them.

But for Bible believing Christians we then have a choice to make.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Calminian]

The "Garden" had many interesting properties.
"Not affected by time or decay" was the most
interesting....

But the problem is, there's nothing in scripture to indicate that decay was anywhere in the world. The Bible tells us that the tree of life could reverse the decay, but we're told death entered the world through Adam. Prior everything was "very good."

Not only this, Adam was commanded to multiply in Gen. 1 indicating that the Garden would not be the only home of mankind.

Not only this, in the restoration we see things like predation ceasing, indicating that that predation is not a good thing, and was not part of the original very good design. Death in scripture is labeled an "enemy." I cannot possibly fall under the "very good" description.

Couple with with clear passages like Ex. 20:1 which says the universe was created in 6 literal days and Mark. 10:6 in which Jesus says Adam and Eve were created from the beginning of creation, and your theory about millions of years of death and suffering crumbles.

 

[Percivale]

But the problem is, there's nothing in scripture to indicate that decay was anywhere in the world. The Bible tells us that the tree of life could reverse the decay, but we're told death entered the world through Adam. Prior everything was "very good."

Not only this, Adam was commanded to multiply in Gen. 1 indicating that the Garden would not be the only home of mankind.

Not only this, in the restoration we see things like predation ceasing, indicating that that predation is not a good thing, and was not part of the original very good design. Death in scripture is labeled an "enemy." I cannot possibly fall under the "very good" description.

Couple with with clear passages like Ex. 20:1 which says the universe was created in 6 literal days and Mark. 10:6 in which Jesus says Adam and Eve were created from the beginning of creation, and your theory about millions of years of death and suffering crumbles.

I suppose when you suggest that there was no decay before the fall, you do not refer to plant life, since its decay is vital to life on earth and to organisms such as mushrooms.
If animals never died, but did reproduce, what do you believe God's plan was to avoid overpopulation?
In studying the Greek word kosmos, translated 'world' when Paul said, "through one man sin entered the world," I've noticed it always either could or must refer to humanity or society. A good example is the verse in I Jn that says Christ came to take away the sins of the world. Plants and animals don't sin. Also, Satan was on the earth before the fall, so it was not through Adam that sin entered the physical world, only the human world. Romans 5 does not teach that animals did not die before the fall.

I can't refute your comments on predators, but since I'm neither a presuppositionalist nor a gnostic I must find a way to harmonize the clear findings of science with the Bible's teachings, and I think the fact that God created Eden and told Adam to guard it suggests a way to do so. Eden must have been in some way better than the rest of the world, and that could have included animals' diets. The rest of the world could have been very good without being perfect. That would have given a mission for Adam to accomplish--expanding Eden--which would have been a very good way to enhance the meaning and purpose of his life.

 

[SkyWriting]

I suppose when you suggest that there was no decay before the fall, you do not refer to plant life, since its decay is vital to life on earth and to organisms such as mushrooms.

It's hard to say if "life" included plants or only refers to
that with the potential to have an "after life" which is
God's only concern for the long term.

That would have given a mission for Adam to accomplish--expanding Eden--which would have been a very good way to enhance the meaning and purpose of his life.

Adam was banned from The Garden with guards put at the gate.
Earth is not Paradise nor are mushrooms manna.

 

[Percivale]

Adam was banned from The Garden with guards put at the gate.
Earth is not Paradise nor are mushrooms manna.

I know that. I was talking about if he had not sinned.

 

[BobRyan]

But the problem is, there's nothing in scripture to indicate that decay was anywhere in the world. The Bible tells us that the tree of life could reverse the decay, but we're told death entered the world through Adam. Prior everything was "very good."

Not only this, Adam was commanded to multiply in Gen. 1 indicating that the Garden would not be the only home of mankind.

Not only this, in the restoration we see things like predation ceasing, indicating that that predation is not a good thing, and was not part of the original very good design. Death in scripture is labeled an "enemy." I cannot possibly fall under the "very good" description.

Couple with with clear passages like Ex. 20:1 which says the universe was created in 6 literal days and Mark. 10:6 in which Jesus says Adam and Eve were created from the beginning of creation, and your theory about millions of years of death and suffering crumbles.

In Romans 8 we are told that the earth was subjected to corruption at the fall - so then disease and death.

In Genesis 1 we are told the animals ate plants, and mankind (Adam and Eve) ate the fruit of the trees.

Paul reminds us that it is a fact - Adam was made first.

So the story is real. And Christ affirms the marriage contract in Genesis 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[SkyWriting]

I know that. I was talking about if he had not sinned.

We can assume that God is pro-choice on the issue of sin.

 

[random person]

But the problem is, there's nothing in scripture to indicate that decay was anywhere in the world. The Bible tells us that the tree of life could reverse the decay, but we're told death entered the world through Adam. Prior everything was "very good."

Not only this, Adam was commanded to multiply in Gen. 1 indicating that the Garden would not be the only home of mankind.

Not only this, in the restoration we see things like predation ceasing, indicating that that predation is not a good thing, and was not part of the original very good design. Death in scripture is labeled an "enemy." I cannot possibly fall under the "very good" description.

Couple with with clear passages like Ex. 20:1 which says the universe was created in 6 literal days and Mark. 10:6 in which Jesus says Adam and Eve were created from the beginning of creation, and your theory about millions of years of death and suffering crumbles.

The Death that occured in the Garden was not a physical death, it was sin-death... spiritual separation from God.

If you look at Genesis 2:17, the word "day" is the Hebrew word "yom".

This world is never going to cease turning, Eccl. 1:4.

The life on this earth is never going to cease producing new life and new generations, Gen. 8:21.

 

[BobRyan]

But the problem is, there's nothing in scripture to indicate that decay was anywhere in the world. The Bible tells us that the tree of life could reverse the decay, but we're told death entered the world through Adam. Prior everything was "very good."

Not only this, Adam was commanded to multiply in Gen. 1 indicating that the Garden would not be the only home of mankind.

Not only this, in the restoration we see things like predation ceasing, indicating that that predation is not a good thing, and was not part of the original very good design. Death in scripture is labeled an "enemy." I cannot possibly fall under the "very good" description.

Couple with with clear passages like Ex. 20:1 which says the universe was created in 6 literal days and Mark. 10:6 in which Jesus says Adam and Eve were created from the beginning of creation, and your theory about millions of years of death and suffering crumbles.

It is unclear that Gen 1 or Ex 20 is limiting the timeline of the entire universe - could just be our own solar system given that the sun and moon are created on day 4 and that on day 4 only two lights are created.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[SkyWriting]

But the problem is, there's nothing in scripture to indicate that decay was anywhere in the world. The Bible tells us that the tree of life could reverse the decay, but we're told death entered the world through Adam. Prior everything was "very good."

Right.

Not only this, Adam was commanded to multiply in Gen. 1 indicating that the Garden would not be the only home of mankind.

O.K.

Not only this, in the restoration we see things like predation ceasing, indicating that that predation is not a good thing, and was not part of the original very good design. Death in scripture is labeled an "enemy." I cannot possibly fall under the "very good" description.

Right

Couple with with clear passages like Ex. 20:1 which says the universe was created in 6 literal days and Mark. 10:6 in which Jesus says Adam and Eve were created from the beginning of creation, and your theory about millions of years of death and suffering crumbles.

I have never suggested such a thing. We're all good till your imagination took off there.

 

[BobRyan]

In the atheist model we are now "in heaven" compared to mankind's Eden start with the law of death, carnage, starvation, predation, survival of the fittest, tooth-and-claw as the law...

By contrast many Christians believe the Bible that Eden is much more tree-of-life paradise than even the so-called 'heaven" of today's cancer, crisis, disease, war, pandemic, crime and suffering.