Is Sola Scriptura a Heresy?

[MikeEnders]

Certainly not! Every letter of his comes up with his self-proclamation at the beginning. In fact, John called any apostle above number 12 a liar!

I don' know the passage to which you refer but revelation is pretty clear there are only 12 recognized Apostles. Thats a far cry from 200+. The whole thing is just made up. Whatever anyone wants to say about Christ telling Peter he will use him to build the church it in no way shape or form validates succession or even puts him above the other 11.

As you can see from one or two posters here they spiritualize ANYTHING. The problem is more heresies have been formed out of spiritualizing than anything else because when you think about it - The easy way to claim to be obedient to God's word and not have to deal with it saying something that doesn't fit with what we teach is to spiritualize it to make what it really says go away.

 

[Open Heart]

How much of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation does the RCC view as fulfilled?

Part of it is the destruction of the Temple, and the other part is the future second coming of Jesus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Part of it is the destruction of the Temple, and the other part is the future second coming of Jesus.

I have heard that before.

I found this commentary interesting. DeeDee Warren is a partial preterist and views Full preterism as utter heretical.

The original site I got this is from is gone [I copied this part of it back in 2011 when she was doing her Matt 24 commentary]. I even helped her on proof reading it.

I think she finally published it.

Note where says where the 2nd part begins:

http://www.amazon.com/Its-Not-End-World-Eschatology-ebook/dp/B00ZS4I7DA

There are two primary camps within preterism on this issue:
one view holds that there is a break in Matthew 24 beginning with either verse 35 or 36 [Switch-On],
and another that holds that the entire enchilada primarily belongs to the first century [Switch-Off].

proponents of the latter view [that holds that the entire enchilada primarily belongs to the first century [Switch-Off]] , include Dan Trotter and Gary DeMar
and proponents of the former view [that there is a break in Matthew 24 beginning with either verse 35 or 36 [Switch-On]] include Kenneth Gentry and Marcellus Kik

Frankly there are strong arguments for both, and I have held both positions, in fact in writing this piece I have waffled -
when I started writing I was becoming very convinced of a Pro-Switch view, now upon writing it I am back to my former position of a No-Switch view............

If in fact there is any change after verse 34, this would be what I would propose (I have not—or my poor memory is not allowing me to recall—read anyone who has made this type of the characterization): the entire Discourse has primary and typological ramifications as does almost the entirety of the Bible, properly understood.

 

[Open Heart]

FYI I'm not a Full Preterist. (I am Catholic after all) I believe as the Creed States "He will come again in Glory to Judge the living and the dead" But I am a very strong partial preterist along the lines of Dr Scott Hahn and James Aiken.

Yeap, me too!

 

[parousia70]

The regathering of Israel to be a nation again in 1948 and later in 1967 in fulfillment of prophecy (which according to you preterists is supposed to be all over but keeps on being fulfilled) brought one nation together. As the passage indicates they will never again be two nations

Your insurmountable problem is that Today's Israel has ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Israel.
Today's Israel is a Multi ethnic secular Democracy and bears no resemblance to the pre desolation Hebrew theocracy, not genetically, not religiously, not governmental. The only Israelis in a covenant relationship with God today, are the Israeli Christians(most of whom are Arabs). The rest exist outside of ANY covenant with Him. They do not follow the law of Moses and have no verifiable genetic link to a single pre desolation Hebrew person. Not even one. Once this secular democracy runs it's course, maybe then there will be a true re gathering, but 1948 & 67 fail to fulfill anything Biblical or prophetic regarding Biblical Israel. The Shoe don't fit, no matter how big your shoehorn is Mike.

 

[parousia70]

!

 

[parousia70]

Not the living waters in Zechariah. .

Ahhh.. so the Living Waters in available in Christ today are inferior to the future Living waters in Zechariah then?

Jesus said "as the scripture has said"... If he is not referring to Zechariah 14:8, please tell us what OT Living waters scripture Jesus is claiming to have fulfilled then? You did say you were an OT expert, right?

 

[MikeEnders]

Your insurmountable problem is that Today's Israel has ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Israel.

You mean besides the Jews living there?........ROFL....so much for "insurmountable".

Today's Israel is a Multi ethnic secular Democracy

lol......READ THE BOOK..... of course they are a democracy and have "strangers" joining to them. Isaiah prophesies that and Ezekiel indicates the same. They can't have a monarchy because they await the revelation of their king (or his retrun as we understand it) . they must be brought back from the nations for the rest of the prophecies to continue to be fulfilled

AND THEY HAVE!!

Lol.... just coincidental that they return to the land precisely at the time they should? Their desert areas begin to grow (impossible under previous technology), They become a renown plantation (in the context of famine lest you blunder again with your spiritualizing everything in the OT) providing fruit to most of Europe, they are living in cities without walls as Ezekiel stated and have experienced wars remarkably similar to Zechariah 12 . Besides the clear rebuff of your false doctrine by scripture we have the reality that quite a lot of prophecy has gone marching on in the last 50 years as if well.....ahem....cough...cough.....God nor his word doesn't give a rip about your everything has been fulfilled and God is done with the nation Israel doctrine

and have no verifiable genetic link to a single pre desolation Hebrew person. Not even one.

VAST and I do mean VAST ignorance on display

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familycohanim.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

and lest you try and slither your way to another point - we have our (well mine at least i can attest) Lord's say so the first century Jew in Jerusalem's lineage traces back to "pre desolation hebrews"

but 1948 & 67 fail to fulfill anything Biblical or prophetic regarding Biblical Israel.

Only to a blind man or perhaps one that hasn't read nor studied the OT who in an uneducated state believes you have to have a redeemed Israel when in fact scripture says otherwise - you must have them return first before they can be redeemed, they must first weep in their land for he who they pierced and suffer the battle of Zechariah (which you ran for the hills trying to equate to AD 70)

Thats about your best contribution so far. now maybe you can repurpose the glass slippers fro reading glasses and READ THE BOOK.

 

[MikeEnders]

Ahhh.. so the Living Waters in available in Christ today are inferior to the future Living waters in Zechariah then?

Ahhh so you need straw in every post......That there is a river that flows to the East and to the west coming out of Jerusalem in what way makes it superior? Silly silly silly argument

"Jesus said "as the scripture has said"... If he is not referring to Zechariah 14:8, please tell us what OT Living waters scripture Jesus is claiming to have fulfilled then? You did say you were an OT expert, right?

this doesn't even require an OT expert. the deligent reader will see you cut off at "as the scripture has said" so why dont we finish it for the good people

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
John 7:38

A BLIND PERSON could see that Jesus is relating about a passage that talks about rivers of water flowing from within a person. He says this directly "from his innermost being"

Nowhere in Zechariah 14 does it talk about waters flowing from the innermost being of a person. You made that up so you Could once again twist the scriptures. Are there places that talk about water flowing out from within a person. Sure...

"And Jehovah doth lead thee continually, And hath satisfied in drought thy soul, And thy bones He armeth, And thou hast been as a watered garden, And as an outlet of waters, whose waters lie not."
Isaiah 58:11

Now if you actually did read the OT (you know part of the book I keep telling you to read and you won't) then you would know that Zechariah 14 is NOT The only place that refers to an end time literal river flowing from Jerusalem

17Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more. 18And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.19Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood
Joel 3

Then he said to me, "These waters go out toward the eastern region and go down into the Arabah; then they go toward the sea, being made to flow into the sea, and the waters of the sea become fresh. 9"It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live (so like living waters then). And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes (so like living waters then?).10"And it will come about that fishermen will stand beside it; from Engedi to Eneglaim there will be a place for the spreading of nets. Their fish will be according to their kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea,
Ezekiel 47

Get busy twisting. I can't wait for your explanation of 47:10 where the living waters flowing from your soul have fish, fishermen and nets in attendance. You could get sainthood for this new theology/ netolgy.

 

[BobRyan]

SOLA SCRIPTURA

Orthodoxy claims that tradition has equal credibility as Scripture, on the basis of it being originated by the early church, excluding the possibility of heresy. The problem with this view is that Scripture itself records the rise of heresy within the lifetime of the Apostles themselves.

Paul says in Acts 20
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

1 Tim 1 - Paul says the entire reason that Timothy is in Ephesus is to squash error that keeps coming up inside the church.

Christ had to deal with the error of the "magisterium" of his day. Smacking it down - "sola scriptura"

Mark 7
5 The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Sola Scriptura in action.

Indeed - in living color!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ahhh.. so the Living Waters in available in Christ today are inferior to the future Living waters in Zechariah then?

Jesus said "as the scripture has said"... If he is not referring to Zechariah 14:8, please tell us what OT Living waters scripture Jesus is claiming to have fulfilled then? You did say you were an OT expert, right?

Isn't Jesus just wonderful.........

John 4:
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
15 The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."

John 7:37
In yet the last day of the great feast, Jesus stands and cries-out, saying,
"If-ever any-one may be thirsting, let him be coming toward Me and be drinking" [Isaiah 43:19/Revelation 21:6]

Reve 21:6
And He said to me:" it-has-become. I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the Life gratuitously". [John 7:37/Reve 22:17]

 

[Open Heart]

Today's Israel is a Multi ethnic secular Democracy

It may have a variety of ethnicities, but they are and will always be a small minority. Israel exists as a haven for persecuted Jews around the world, a refuge from anti-Semitism. Citizenship is automatically granted to Jews.

 

[Rick Otto]

is there refuge from pro-Semitism?

 

[parousia70]

lol....you are hardly in any position to question my honesty. There is not a passage you deal with that convinces your worthiness to judge the characteristic. what you state is a RANK fabrication. the futurist paradigm does not have sin and suffering continuing forever. Like I have said READ THE BOOK.

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Unless you are a universalist of annhilationist, These people will suffer IN THEIR SIN forever and ever.

Seems to me your objection has more to do with the LOCATION of the eternal sin/suffering state than with it's eternal existence itself....

Acts 2 is during pentecost when all the Jews are gathered at Jerusalem. Thats not AD 70.

No Kidding...

But it claims that Jews from EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN were there..
Chinese Jews? Japanese Jews? Aboriginal Australian Jews? Jews from Native American Nations?
It means EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN Mike. EVERY ONE. Right?
Unless of course you don't take that literally?

You don't have a stick...not a LICK of evidence that anywhere it the Ot "every eye shall see him"is not a literal statement.

The evidence you demand is that God did NOT become visible during the OT comings, though in every instance the prophets speak as if he does. See the following:

God Comes to Judge the Kingdom of Saul
"The earth shook and trembled. The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, because he was angry. Smoke went up out of his nostrils. Fire out of his mouth devoured. Coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down. Thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub, and flew. Yes, he was seen on the wings of the wind. He made darkness pavilions around himself: gathering of waters, and thick clouds of the skies. At the brightness before him, coals of fire were kindled. Yahweh thundered from heaven. The Most High uttered his voice. He sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and confused them. Then the channels of the sea appeared. The foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of Yahweh, At the blast of the breath of his nostrils" (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

God Comes to Fight against Greece
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

God Comes and Judges Israel at the Babylonian Exile
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

In every case, God is described as being a visible warrior doing visible things. Yet the prophets are actually describing what God does in the heavenly realms and the disasters that result on earth because of what God is doing in the heavenly realms. So it was when the Lord of the Vineyard came at the days of vengeance (fall of Jerusalem at end of Old Testamental age). Again, Christ's OT judgments did not demand a visible incarnation, and neither do they demand such now.

Note that Revelation 14:14-20 supports my view entirely. There we see Jesus seated in the heavenlies, issuing judgments down upon the earth. He is not visible to those on earth, though the judgments he is issuing are.

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father.

We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)
We already know you interpret Seen by the eyes of all nations in polar opposite fashion to every eye shall see... but such is untenable.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.

P.S. thre are better lists on the net. that you came up with that one as weak as it is is just sad.

And you lack of ability to take even two or three of them to demonstrate such speaks volumes.

 

[faroukfarouk]

'Thus saith the Lord', and referring to the Bible, is in a sense an expression of Sola Scriptura.

 

[MikeEnders]

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Unless you are a universalist of cessationist, These people will suffer IN THEIR SIN forever and ever.

Seems to me your objection has more to do with the LOCATION of the eternal sin/suffering state that with it's eternal existence itself....

don't even try moving the goal post. You should know by now with me its not going to work. In preterism in this dimension sin has been going on for thousands of years after your alleged judgement of the world (by taking out one city). The devil, the beast and the false prophet are not living or to be tortured in our dimension. Sin will be eradicated from mankind. Jesus came to redeem men not angels and it is beyond silly to claim then that sin just goes on and on endlessly after the judgement of the world took place. Trying to equate the two is just more twisting and lack of intellectual rigor to claim equality. Futurist despite your fudge do not have the problem of sin going on eternally among men forever and ever

No Kidding...

But it claims that Jews fro EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN were there..
Chinese Jews? Japanese Jews? Jews from Native American Nations?
It means EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN Mike. EVERY ONE. Right?
Unless you don't take that literally?

Apparently the point still flies miles over your head and the obvious is not obvious to everyone Acts 17 Paul is in Athens. Acts 2 is in Jerusalem. They are two different passages. The point has nothing to do with every nation under the earth. the point is destroying Jerusalem DOES NOT judge all nations and you keep referring to God appointing a time for judgment which you claim is AD 70. it doesn't work. That would b obvious to a child. Judgement on one nation is not judgement on the entire world. You will beg otherwise but its just begging.

God Comes to Judge the Kingdom of Saul

"Yes, he was seen on the wings of the wind. He made darkness pavilions around himself: gathering of waters, and thick clouds of the skies. At the brightness before him, coals of fire were kindled. Yahweh thundered from heaven. The Most High uttered his voice. He sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and confused them. Then the channels of the sea appeared. The foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of Yahweh, At the blast of the breath of his nostrils" (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

try again 2 Samuel 22 is a song. Songs if you didn't know use all kinds of poetic language. Revelation is a prophecy. This is one of the problems with your kind of interpretations. Because songs and poetry are in the bible you think you can twist any passage you don;t like into symbolism. Good Bible students make the context determine the usage

God Comes to Fight against Greece

(Zechariah 9:13-16)

Seriously. Do you ever read the passages you quote or do you just copy and paste them from some preterist site. YOu should be embarassed. did you even read the verses before it

“Shout and cheer, Daughter Zion!
Raise the roof, Daughter Jerusalem!
Your king is coming!
a good king who makes all things right,
a humble king riding a donkey,
a mere colt of a donkey.
I’ve had it with war—no more chariots in Ephraim,
no more war horses in Jerusalem,
no more swords and spears, bows and arrows.
He will offer peace to the nations,
a peaceful rule worldwide,
from the four winds to the seven seas.
Zechariah 9:9-12

ITS A MESSIANIC PASSAGE! The Gospels refer to it in the triumphant entry on what we call Palm sunday. SO rather than dispute all men seeing him it CONFIRMS that such a seeing is of Christ and the messianic kingdom jut as revelations states!

God Comes and Judges Israel at the Babylonian Exile
All flesh shall see

that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...

Fudge Sunday... They saw that God had done an action not saying they saw God. I can see God's actions in this case kindling without seeing God.

Note that Revelation 14:14-20 supports my view entirely. There we see Jesus seated in the heavenlies, issuing judgments down upon the earth. He is not visible to those on earth, though the judgments he is issuing are.

Note that you as usual don't know what you are talking about. The gospels are Very clear that trials and judgments fallon the earth before the final act. Revelations TOASTS preterism because AFTER that comes this

12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Revelations 19

Please tell the class where the Lord is going to judge and strike down the nation if he has already done that from Heaven?Oh and which way are the horses headed to umm make war with the beast and the kings of the earth? purgatory?

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Again even a child could read this and understand it. All the nations of the earth are gathered with the beast and the Lord and the saints return with him just as like five other biblical passages state. Do you have all the armies of all nations gathered at Jerusalem in AD 70. Nope . Does the Lord defeat them all? Nope instead you have Rome defeating Judah and in truly stupid form preterist then claim this is the return of Christ - not where CHrist destroys all nations against him but where the nation against Christ and subsequently to kill THOUSANDS of his servants, Rome, destroys Jerusalem.

Totally bone dense theology

Do you even know that verse 17 is a quote from Ezekiel 38 a very literal description of a final physical battle? From what I have read of you - no you don't

Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see."

Simply put you are all wet. You do err because you do not know the scriptures

 

[Righttruth]

Huh? Can you give a source for that?
.

Rev. 2:2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

 

[Righttruth]

I don' know the passage to which you refer but revelation is pretty clear there are only 12 recognized Apostles. Thats a far cry from 200+. The whole thing is just made up. Whatever anyone wants to say about Christ telling Peter he will use him to build the church it in no way shape or form validates succession or even puts him above the other 11.

As you can see from one or two posters here they spiritualize ANYTHING. The problem is more heresies have been formed out of spiritualizing than anything else because when you think about it - The easy way to claim to be obedient to God's word and not have to deal with it saying something that doesn't fit with what we teach is to spiritualize it to make what it really says go away.

That is Rev. 2:2. I agree with your statements.

 

[MikeEnders]

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

And um....cough....cough...where is "every eye shall see him" in that verse ?. Again the idea that because the Bible uses poetic language some places it translates to every passage is just nonsensical. BY that rational Jesus didn't have to come and die because the Lord's coming in the OT is poetic in some places

and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

Seriously do you ever read?... the judgments in that passage are what is seen....non stop twisting of verses

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations

(Isa 52:10)
We already know you interpret Seen by the eyes of all nations in polar opposite fashion to every eye shall see... but such is untenable.

You already tried that verse and it was rebuffed for your purposes. Isiaah 52-53 is messianic and as such referring to the same period that Revelations does. There is no demonstration of symbolism versus literal. Its a future verse

Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

and? thats why You have Christ or do you now deny he is God?

And you lack of ability to take even two or three of them to demonstrate such speaks volumes.

yes it speaks volumes that you have to go to a juvenile ten year old's forum claim that because a posters time is not unlimited and they answer all your posts but don;t do a point by point rebuff of your links that you have some point. No time for children's game. Stick to some substance.