Is Sola Scriptura a Heresy?

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LittleLambofJesus

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Meanwhile ladies and gents :) you will notice no one touched Zechariah 14. Why do they not like to deal with it? because its a slam down Bible take down of preterists claims that all was fulfilled in Ad 70.

If you have to butcher half the word of God just to see your interpretation of "this generation" and "near" survives what good is it?
There are all different flavors of Preterism. Tho I am Amill, the more I study the Bible, the more inclined I am to lean toward Full Preterism.
Does it affect my salvation...nope!
There are plenty of Preterism threads on both the Eschatology and Controversial Theology boards if you want to debate those views. I for one believe Preterism will overtake Futurism in the near future.......

https://www.google.com/search?q=ful...+christianforums+site:www.christianforums.com

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...re-is-the-scriptural-evidence.2367396/page-12

Preterism means “things bygone” or “things past.”
Futurism is the dominant view at this time. Preterism is a view of eschatology (the study of “endtimes” or “last things”) that views the [second] coming of Christ, the judgment, the great persecution, and the [general] resurrection as having already been fulfilled. Most preterists believe these things happened in the first century, culminating in the events of a.d. 70. There are different degrees of preterism. Partial preterists believe that some things have been fulfilled but others are yet future. Preterists also differ considerably concerning the implications of this a.d. 70 fulfillment and how it affects practice and life for today.
Most preterists view “the end” of which the apostles speak as being the end of the law or the filling up of the covenant in Jesus. The old order, the Mosaic covenant, “the flesh,” “the world,” circumcision, heaven and earth (and other terms that encapsulated the law) were passing away; the glory of the law was fading. The old covenant, as per Hebrews, was growing old and ready to disappear. Yet, at the writing of Hebrews, it had not yet vanished. Something soon was to complete the victory; the apostles constantly expected it and encouraged their brethren to do the same. That something was Jesus’ providential coming to destroy faithless Jerusalem, its temple, and the perverse generation that stood up against God and against His holy ones. This event would spell vindication for the church.
Persecutors rose up against Jesus and against his disciples. These were antichrists and adversaries, mostly from among fellow-Jews. Believers were scourged in the synagogues and cast out from them. They were handed up to rulers and authorities; they were routinely stoned, mocked, killed and accused of sin (with respect to the law).

Throughout the whole world, even the Gentile Christians were being compelled to be circumcised and to follow the customs, as handed down by Moses. These people were Pharisaical Jews who sometimes identified with Jesus (but not necessarily). They were called the circumcision faction. They boasted in the flesh, in the temple “made with hands” and in their circumcision. They brought great affliction against the servants of righteousness. Their pride was in Jerusalem and in the temple. The destruction of these things brought them low; it ended the persecution from the hands of these men (both inside Judea and throughout the whole world).
According to Preterism, the law was good and came from God. Yet Jesus’ contemporaries, a wicked and perverse generation, had made the law an idol, an object of God’s wrath. As the prophets spoke of God-appointed new moons and Sabbaths as being theirs (i.e. not God’s), so too was the law theirs in perversion. It was a law of sin and death, a ministration of condemnation.

Preterism draws much of its support from imminency language from Jesus and the apostles. They speak of events that were “soon” and “near” or to occur in their generation. Revelation speaks in this way plainly. So too does Matt 24 speak against the very temple that was then standing. Preterist believe that futurists miss out on the powerful fulfillment of prophetic promises from our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also, much of the imagery, Preterists understand in prophetic terms. “Heavens and earth” are connected to or symbolic of the covenant in many places (such as Isaiah and Deut). The sun, moon, and stars falling, is also a common way of speaking with respect to a particular nation or person (Ezek 32, Ecclesiastes 12). And God regularly would “come” upon the clouds in temporal judgments against adversaries. Preterists think that futurists ignore linguistic connections with and background from other parts of the Scripture.

Historically, Christianity has shown a dualism between preterism and futurism. They have existed side-by-side. Traditional orthodoxy might basically be described as partial-preterist. Many people have seen some of these texts as being fulfilled. Interpreters varied considerably. There was no systematic (or well developed) futurism or preterism until the 19th Century. Historicism dominated the Reformation age. Historicists typically viewed Revelation as being a summation of history. The Pope was the “antichrist” and the “man of sin.” This view (especially concerning the pope) developed a couple of centuries prior to the Reformation.
Prior to Historicism, the dominant view was not systematic at all. It was a hodge-podge that didn’t necessarily connect one piece of the puzzle with another.
Preterism might arguably be considered the product of systematic futurism. Futurists connected certain events in eschatology as being interwoven together. They aimed at a consistency. They said, in essence, “if the final judgment is future, so too is the coming and the resurrection and the great persecution, etc.” They correctly linked all of these events together in time.
Preterism agrees with the systematic futurist in linking these events together in logic and in time (and calling it eschatology). Nevertheless, Preterists say that because all of these events hang together, they all hang together in the past.
 
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MikeEnders

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Ummm, sorry to you wrong. Are you a dispensationalist by any chance?

The house of Judah is comprised of Judah, Levi [the priestly tribe] and Benjamin. The other tribes belong to the house of Israel, which God divorced in the OT. Would make a good study tho....


Yes it would and perhaps you would actually learn something. Mostly that you are wrong. Judah and Israel are now one not separate

and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
(Eze 37:22)

The regathering of Israel to be a nation again in 1948 and later in 1967 in fulfillment of prophecy (which according to you preterists is supposed to be all over but keeps on being fulfilled) brought one nation together. As the passage indicates they will never again be two nations

I have no confusion. I know the prophecies of the OT pretty well which is why I wrote what I wrote and it is most assuredly correct. The distinction between Judah and Israel is now immaterial - they are now one nation fulfilling prophecy
 
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MikeEnders

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There are all different flavors of Preterism. Tho I am Amill, the more I study the Bible, the more inclined I am to lean toward Full Preterism.
Does it affect my salvation...nope!

Unless you don't know what a full preterist is it mostly certainly does affect your salvation. It would make you a heretic and denying the bodily resurrection of the saints.

I for one believe Preterism will overtake Futurism in the near future.......

Beliefs about popularity are immaterial - Sola scripture.

but since you weighed in on it - I think you are day dreaming
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Yes it would and perhaps you would actually learn something. Mostly that you are wrong. Judah and Israel are now one not separate

and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
(Eze 37:22)

The regathering of Israel to be a nation again in 1948 and later in 1967 in fulfillment of prophecy (which according to you preterists is supposed to be all over but keeps on being fulfilled) brought one nation together. As the passage indicates they will never again be two nations

I have no confusion. I know the prophecies of the OT pretty well which is why I wrote what I wrote and it is most assuredly correct. The distinction between Judah and Israel is now immaterial - they are now one nation fulfilling prophecy
That is good to know. I have been studying the Bible since 2003, so I am no rookie myself.

I like comparing the OT Jewish scriptures with the book of Revelation......

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/allusions-in-revelation-from-old-testament.7588850/
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

I find this person's view concerning the "allusions" found in the book of Revelation that are found in the Old Testament/Covenant rather fascinating.
Would anyone like to put down verses from Revelation and the verses from the OT/OC that are alluded to this? I think that would be fun. Thanks

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

:)
How about the Song of Moses :angel:

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Exodus 15:1
Then Mosheh is singing and
sons of Yisra'el this song to YHVH and they are saying to say of "I shall sing to YHVH that to exalt He exalts. Horse and one riding of him He heaved into the sea [Reve 15:3]
2 Strenghth of me and melody of Yah. And He becoming to me for salvation. This one El of me and I shall adorn Him, Elohiym of father of me and I shall exalt Him"
Exodus 15:21 And Miriam is responding to them "sing ye to YHVH that to be triumphant He is triumphant, horse and rider He heaved into Sea.

Reve 15:3
And they are singing the Song of Moses, the bond-servant of the God and the Song of the Lambkin saying "great and marvelous the Works of Thee Lord! the God, the Almighty.
Just and true the ways of Thee, the King of the saints" [*ages/*nations].
[Exodus 15]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Unless you don't know what a full preterist is it mostly certainly does affect your salvation.
It would make you a heretic and denying the bodily resurrection of the saints.
That is what I heard..........I am not yet a full preterist tho....so what's the problem?
 
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Righttruth

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The apostles of course. Why would I believe otherwise?

Both Matthew and John, the apostles present, don't indicate that the Last Supper should be observed as a remembrance of His death! Paul, a self-claimed apostle, was not present during this event, so also Luke.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Both Matthew and John, the apostles present, don't indicate that the Last Supper should be observed as a remembrance of His death! Paul, a self-claimed apostle, was not present during this event, so also Luke.

I believe the apostles were the one who decided Paul was an apostle not Paul, he clearly indicates in his epistles that he is unworthy of his station in life.
 
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SOLA SCRIPTURA

Orthodoxy claims that tradition has equal credibility as Scripture, on the basis of it being originated by the early church, excluding the possibility of heresy. The problem with this view is that Scripture itself records the rise of heresy within the lifetime of the Apostles themselves.

So claiming tradition is a better alternative to the leading of the Holy Spirit based on pedigree or provenance is the logical fallacy of appealing to authority.

The accusation is framed in the form of:

Why do you think you have the corner on the truth when the early church fathers were closer to the source, both chronologically and geographically.

The problem with this view is that the early church fathers were products of their times and the dominant influence of the times times was Greek and Roman thought, basically pagan dualism. Irenaeus formed his doctrine of original sin not on scripture but on anti materialistic views of dualism. Matter is evil, spirit is good, when Jewish teaching was that God created the world and declared it to be good. Justin taught humanism, the inevitable arc of attaining to perfection inherent in all of mankind. So the record of the ECF is not white as snow

However it's not a slam dunk for sola scriptura.

The problem of biblical interpretation is a problem of infinite regress.

A claims that text X is interpreted as P by the leading of the holy Spirit and is supported by the interpretation L of text H again by the leading of the Holy Spirit..

B similarly claims that text X is interpreted as Q by the leading of the holy Spirit and is supported by the interpretation L of text H again by the leading of the Holy Spirit.


How does one reach a definitive conclusion, a view built on rock and not on sand?

It's a common problem and the solution is common as well.

In courts of Law, the opposing counsels both present cases, one defending, one prosecuting. The one that passes muster is the one with the least inconsistencies, the one with the least unexplained, unanswered questions.

Who has presented the better case, the better explanation to what transpired, in the following criminal investigation?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_Silver_Blaze

Obviously the one who has the least unanswered question, the least holes in his theory.

Why has the doctrinal development in the separate pools of orthodoxy and evangelicalism sunk to the lows they occupy now? Because control of that development is in the hands of a few, who would rather live with paradoxes and mysteries than with answers that unsettles the status quo, especially if that status quo benefits those in control.

Let's get this straight: no fair and objective view can be reached if the study is controlled by those with vested interests. It's called conflict of interest.

Result: incoherent, inconclusive views. Doctrine that makes sense in isolation, but when viewed as a body of works, filled with contradiction.

Are there group that ever reach a coherent theology? These exist, but they are small pools...that's because those who possess a correct theology will have problems in teaching the doctrine. Setting it down in writing leads to the possibility of further misinterpretation.

Obviously this state of affairs that is unacceptable. How are we to plant churches if we cannot give them good doctrine?

Two things need to be done. First, provide them with an effective interpretive methodology. Second, set the criteria for assesing a good church.

1 Corinthians 14:26 is the method.

The criteria for assessing if a church has reached maturity is identified in churches like Macedonia and Achaia. Not surprisingly, the epistles were written to problematic churches, churches that needed correction. Macedonia and Achaia are only mentioned as churches to be imitated.

2 Corinthians 8: 1Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia, 2that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality

Summary
1 Edification was through the priest hood of believers, which followed Paul's method to become mature by asking for the leading of the Holy Spirit both in receiving revelation and judging revelation, to confirm that the message was from God and not a result of too much pizza the previous night. The view would give a coherent interpretation of SCRIPTURE, not add to it. NT text is basically an explanation of how the Cross fulfilled OT prophecy. To extract the explanation, all one has to do is to ask for the Holy Spirit, hidden from the wise, but given freely to the poor and uneducated.


Isaiah 55:
1“Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters;
And you who have no money come, buy and eat.
Come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without cost.

2“Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And delight yourself in abundance.

3“Incline your ear and come to Me.
Listen, that you may live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
According to the faithful mercies shown to David.


Mainline traditions on the other hand add to the text, sometimes losing its way into idolatry.

2 A good, well built church was Macedonia.
 
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parousia70

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That's just basic Christianity. It's anti-judaism, but not anti-Semitic.
Amazing so many conflate the two.

I'm considering the other things you said, but I intuit that much of it is simply your desire to push your full preterist position, which gives it that unique slant.
FYI I'm not a Full Preterist. (I am Catholic after all) I believe as the Creed States "He will come again in Glory to Judge the living and the dead" But I am a very strong partial preterist along the lines of Dr Scott Hahn and James Aiken.
 
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Righttruth

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I believe the apostles were the one who decided Paul was an apostle not Paul, he clearly indicates in his epistles that he is unworthy of his station in life.

Certainly not! Every letter of his comes up with his self-proclamation at the beginning. In fact, John called any apostle above number 12 a liar!
 
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parousia70

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LittleLambofJesus

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Certainly not! Every letter of his comes up with his self-proclamation at the beginning.

In fact, John called any apostle above number 12 a liar!
Huh? Can you give a source for that?

.
 
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parousia70

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Meanwhile ladies and gents :) you will notice no one touched Zechariah 14.

Actually those who are paying attention would have noticed I addressed it and you were strangely silent.

Zech 14:8
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.


Why are you still waiting for this reality that Jesus said (which should be enough) is presently Fulfilled IN HIM?
John 7:38
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

Have you drank from those living Waters yet Mike?
 
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parousia70

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but what do heretical Preterists try and beg - Nope no resurrection, no changed in a twinkling of an eye - Just the destruction of Jerusalem and the World goes rolling on in sin. Wouldn't know sound doctrine if it bit them

Even in the futurist paradigm, sin and suffering continue forever, so to pretend such is a uniquely preterist problem is dishonest.

As usual you are begging bread. Acts 17 talks about judging all men The whole world not just Jerusalem and Jews. Do you ever get tired of twisting scriptures? or let me guess - there was some invisible judgement of the whole world in AD 70 ;) lol

Acts 2:5
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

Your selective interpretations are glaring Mike.

the Whole world means the whole world, unless it doesnt...

ROFL so the straightforward reading of Revelations is to change what it says to what Isaiah 52 states so as to save your false doctrine?

Well first off, a straightforward reading of RevelatioN reveals there is no S at the end of the word.

And no, it is you who are changing the meaning of "seen by the eyes of all nations" from the OT precedent to suit your futurist bias. I stick with the Biblical precedent.

yep and almost all as weak as that stunt above you just tried to pull on scripture


So pick out 5 or 10 and teach us why they don't mean what I contend.
 
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MikeEnders

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Actually those who are paying attention would have noticed I addressed it and you were strangely silent.

Would these be honest people?

Zech 14:8
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

Ah so I take it you are hoping for dishonest people since no honest person paying attention would notice you skipping almost the entire passage and characterize that as addressing it. Would they?


Have you drank from those living Waters yet Mike?

Not the living waters in Zechariah. Those flow toward the eastern sea and the other to the western sea . can I watch yours flowing to the western sea? This earthquake you had when you first began to have this issue with flow....did it hurt? You being cut off from Jerusalem but half not. That too must have hurt too...sounds nasty...what with the two feet on your mount (I presume metaphoric for your head?) its a dreadful plight you have yourself in.

All in all must have been a very painful illness It explains why you cant think straight. We will pray.
 
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MikeEnders

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Even in the futurist paradigm, sin and suffering continue forever, so to pretend such is a uniquely preterist problem is dishonest.

lol....you are hardly in any position to question my honesty. There is not a passage you deal with that convinces your worthiness to judge the characteristic. what you state is a RANK fabrication. the futurist paradigm does not have sin and suffering continuing forever. Like I have said READ THE BOOK.

Acts 2:5
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

Your selective interpretations are glaring Mike.

Good night. What a pathetic excuse for biblical analysis you demonstrate. Talk about glaring. Your inability to read fits the bill. Acts 2 is during pentecost when all the Jews are gathered at Jerusalem. Thats not AD 70. To beg that destruction of one city while all the others during that time were just fine sinning their life away is a judgement of the entire world just shows how desperately silly you preterists must become to try and salvage you non return return of Christ doctrine


And no, it is you who are changing the meaning of "seen by the eyes of all nations" from the OT precedent to suit your futurist bias. I stick with the Biblical precedent.

You don't have any precedent in the OT. NONE.....NADA....ZIP....stop pretending. Isaiah 52:10 doesn't even support your claim. Every first year Bible student knows that Isaiah 52-53 is MESSIANIC. As usual you don't even read what you are quoting

Revelations and Isaiah 52 are in complete agreement as LITERAL with revelation specifiying that all eyes shall see him when Zion is restored. You don't have a stick...not a LICK of evidence that anywhere it the Ot "every eye shall see him"is not a literal statement.

You are just making things up as you go along. You will spiritualize, add or subtract from what the text states at will to suit yourself. Its no wonder you think Sola scriptures is a heresy. Your own heresies cannot stand with Sola scripture because they are rank in violation of the scriptural texts.


So pick out 5 or 10 and teach us why they don't mean what I contend.

kingdom of God at hand is explained by christ himself. Its within us even before AD 7O. That in no way teches he will not rule out of Jerusalem as well as the scripture repeatedly says.

so there thats like 10 or more that flop on that weak list.....in ONE go.

P.S. thre are better lists on the net. that you came up with that one as weak as it is is just sad.
 
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SOLA SCRIPTURA

Why has the doctrinal development in the separate pools of orthodoxy and evangelicalism sunk to the lows they occupy now? Because control of that development is in the hands of a few, who would rather live with paradoxes and mysteries than with answers that unsettles the status quo, especially if that status quo benefits those in control.

Let's get this straight: no fair and objective view can be reached if the study is controlled by those with vested interests. It's called conflict of interest.

Result: incoherent, inconclusive views. Doctrine that makes sense in isolation, but when viewed as a body of works, filled with contradiction.

Are there group that ever reach a coherent theology? These exist, but they are small pools...that's because those who possess a correct theology will have problems in teaching the doctrine. Setting it down in writing leads to the possibility of further misinterpretation.

Obviously this state of affairs that is unacceptable. How are we to plant churches if we cannot give them good doctrine?

An outstanding presentation en toto.
 
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