Is Slavery an Acceptable Practice?

Paul of Eugene OR

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China has a one week holiday once a year. People have the opportunity to go home and visit their family. 20% of the people do not return to their job. So at least once a year they are given the opportunity to walk away from their job. Although for most the choice is either factory work or build the infrastructure. Farming just does not pay as much in comparison.

Oh, I suppose some chinese are living in what amounts to slavery while others are not.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The theory is easy. "Hey, do you want to be treated badly? No? Then don't treat others badly". Easy.

Applying the theory can be more tricky.

If it were even remotely possible, Jesus could have spared Himself a cross.
 
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If it were even remotely possible, Jesus could have spared Himself a cross.

Hey Jimmy. I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think it was possible for him to turn away from the cross. He chose not to. I think acknowledging that choice is an important part of respecting Jesus' humanity and sacrifice. Have I misunderstood you?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Hey Jimmy. I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think it was possible for him to turn away from the cross. He chose not to. I think acknowledging that choice is an important part of respecting Jesus' humanity and sacrifice. Have I misunderstood you?

Jesus summed up the entire law, laws that the entire nation of Israel could not obey. He condensed all of those laws, hundred of laws into two, so their weight was immeasurable, yet you say, "It's easy".

If it were even remotely acceptable to love your neighbor as yourself, man would have no need of the salvific work of Christ. He could have saved Himself a trip.

My point is that you have lowered the law to imagine it obtainable. If it were, Jesus didn't need to die.

The brutality and severity of the cross demonstrates our very need need of it.
 
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Jesus summed up the entire law, laws that the entire nation of Israel could not obey. He condensed all of those laws, hundred of laws into two, so their weight was immeasurable, yet you say, "It's easy".

If it were even remotely acceptable to love your neighbor as yourself, man would have no need of the salvific work of Christ. He could have saved Himself a trip.

My point is that you have lowered the law to imagine it obtainable. If it were, Jesus didn't need to die.

The brutality and severity of the cross demonstrates our very need need of it.

Well, I think it can be easy. Jesus did say, "come to me all you who are burdened and heavy laden, and I will give you rest, because my burden is light". I don't know where you're getting this thing about neighbor loving being immeasurably heavy.

Not only is it possible to love one's neighbor, it's our calling in life to at least attempt to do so. Jesus' death on the cross represents an opportunity to continue trying, learning, and growing in this area even when we fail. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, and therefore no excuse not to keep trying.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Well, I think it can be easy. Jesus did say, "come to me all you who are burdened and heavy laden, and I will give you rest, because my burden is light". I don't know where you're getting this thing about neighbor loving being immeasurably heavy.

Not only is it possible to love one's neighbor, it's our calling in life to at least attempt to do so. Jesus' death on the cross represents an opportunity to continue trying, learning, and growing in this area even when we fail. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, and therefore no excuse not to keep trying.

The weight of God's law is beyond human capability to lift. Now condense those hundreds of laws into just two. . .

How is what you are saying any different than what the Rich Young Ruler said?
 
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How is what you are saying any different than what the Rich Young Ruler said?

I dunno. Somehow this discussion seems to be veering off into foolishness. I'm suggesting that we have an obligation to at least try to love our neighbors, and that while the application can be difficult, the spiritual principle is really quite simple.

If someone were genuinely interested in neighbor-loving, it would be highly unlikely that they'd view slavery as okay.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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My point is that you have lowered the law to imagine it obtainable. If it were, Jesus didn't need to die.

The brutality and severity of the cross demonstrates our very need need of it.
"obtainable" - eternal life, forgiveness, atonement, righteousness.

"obtainable" - how ?

"obtainable" - yes. (you said how, I just quoted you)

After someone dies for you, purchases you with their preciousness, by PLAN, even though no one deserved to be saved, no one merited being saved;
will they still disobey ? Will they still rebel, willingly, on purpose, AFTER they have been given RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE, and JOY ? ! ? Heaven forbid !

Will they be grateful ? YES ~ !!!
Will they eagerly hang on EVERY WORD ? YES ~ !!!!!!!
Will they keep their eye upon their SAVIOR ? YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!!
 
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tienkhoanguyen

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"obtainable" - eternal life, forgiveness, atonement, righteousness.

"obtainable" - how ?

"obtainable" - yes. (you said how, I just quoted you)

After someone dies for you, purchases you with their preciousness, by PLAN, even though no one deserved to be saved, no one merited being saved;
will they still disobey ? Will they still rebel, willingly, on purpose, AFTER they have been given RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE, and JOY ? ! ? Heaven forbid !

Will they be grateful ? YES ~ !!!
Will they eagerly hang on EVERY WORD ? YES ~ !!!!!!!
Will they keep their eye upon their SAVIOR ? YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations I believe God takes you and gives you much!
 
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SolomonVII

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The greatest figure in Jewish history is Y'SHUA MESSIAH.(HE is still Jewish, and KING OF THE JEWS).

==============================
Not so. Read what YHWH HIMSELF says about "slave" in both TORAH and NEW TESTAMENT. (IF you can find a translation that properly translates "slave" everywhere it is in the original). You are in for perhaps one of the biggest shocks of the last ten years if you can do this. (No, I don't know if it is "findable" online or not).
=============================
As above,
use what YHWH says about "slave", not what men say.
It is different than most everyone is claiming.
Whatever the definition of slavery in the Bible is deciphered to be, those final definitions need to be made in terms of the executive summary of the Bible, which centres on the fact that the two greatest figures of the OT and NT are the two redeemers, Moses and Jesus.
And yes, Jesus was Jewish, even though those Jews who do not accept Christ see Moses as their greatest prophet. So in terms of freedom and slavery, for both Judaism and Christianity, it is redemption from slavery that is celebrated the most, by man and by God.
That is the executive summary of what God thinks of slavery. He who created mankind with free will desires mankind to be free. That is the starting point and ending point on how slavery in the Bible needs to be interpreted.

I have heard some very good Biblical clarifications from a Jewish rabbi, who notes the differences between both males and female slavery as defined by the Bible.
And both have as their endpoint freedom for the slave, both male and female, a freedom that included social mobility especially for the female. After all, there are special preconditions that must be fulfilled before true freedom becomes possible. Freedom that is just another word for "nothing left to lose" is not the kind of freedom worth pursuing.
The Bible is all about getting from the 'here' of some form of slavery to the 'there' of freedom.

And autonomy does not just mean freedom from the whip. Among other things, a promised land, a space is needed in which autonomy becomes possible. Correct attitude is also required, lest the freedom be like that of a 'wild ass of a man', forever kicking out at the hands of an oppressor that the wild ass of a man(Hagar and Ishmael) psychologically requires to define himself against.

The two greatest figures of Judaism and Christianity are Moses and Christ respectively. They both are redeemers from slavery. Freedom is their ultimate goal for the people that they love.
All the rest is working out the details of how to get from here to there.
 
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tienkhoanguyen

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Whatever the definition of slavery in the Bible is deciphered to be, those final definitions need to be made in terms of the executive summary of the Bible, which centres on the fact that the two greatest figures of the OT and NT are the two redeemers, Moses and Jesus.
And yes, Jesus was Jewish, even though those Jews who do not accept Christ see Moses as their greatest prophet. So in terms of freedom and slavery, for both Judaism and Christianity, it is redemption from slavery that is celebrated the most, by man and by God.
That is the executive summary of what God thinks of slavery. He who created mankind with free will desires mankind to be free. That is the starting point and ending point on how slavery in the Bible needs to be interpreted.

I have heard some very good Biblical clarifications from a Jewish rabbi, who notes the differences between both males and female slavery as defined by the Bible.
And both have as their endpoint freedom for the slave, both male and female, a freedom that included social mobility especially for the female. After all, there are special preconditions that must be fulfilled before true freedom becomes possible. Freedom that is just another word for "nothing left to lose" is not the kind of freedom worth pursuing.
The Bible is all about getting from the 'here' of some form of slavery to the 'there' of freedom.

And autonomy does not just mean freedom from the whip. Among other things, a promised land, a space is needed in which autonomy becomes possible. Correct attitude is also required, lest the freedom be like that of a 'wild ass of a man', forever kicking out at the hands of an oppressor that the wild ass of a man(Hagar and Ishmael) psychologically requires to define himself against.

The two greatest figures of Judaism and Christianity are Moses and Christ respectively. They both are redeemers from slavery. Freedom is their ultimate goal for the people that they love.
All the rest is working out the details of how to get from here to there.
The Holy Bible is the main source and guide. However I need to remember just like "book knowledge" needs real life to be refined so The Holy Bible needs to be adjusted to my life. In school I learned "1 + 1 = 2" and that is book knowledge, but in real life it could be implied so "1 + 1 = 1.000000000000000000000000000000001". This is because it has been rounded up by humans and made simplified to work with. The Holy Bible considers every penny accountable and even what you speak is accountable. You are forgiven! It is New Years 2017. Happy New Years to all.
 
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ChristianMatchmaking

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Good point above about "slave" being an English word. Critical to always bear in mind that when you read an English translation, you are reading English renderings, which can sometimes appear to mean something other than what may really be meant.

That said, years ago I heard a great sermon by the person who is now president of Wheaton College about how Biblical "slavery" was very different from what we normally understand that English term to refer to. Plain and simple, that's the answer.

Slavery as defined by the OP and as we normally know the term, is evil, also plain and simple. It also includes at its most basic level the sin and evil of kidnapping as well, for instance, which is not only plain evil but also explicitly mentioned in the Bible.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Good point above about "slave" being an English word. Critical to always bear in mind that when you read an English translation, you are reading English renderings, which can sometimes appear to mean something other than what may really be meant.

That said, years ago I heard a great sermon by the person who is now president of Wheaton College about how Biblical "slavery" was very different from what we normally understand that English term to refer to. Plain and simple, that's the answer.

Slavery as defined by the OP and as we normally know the term, is evil, also plain and simple. It also includes at its most basic level the sin and evil of kidnapping as well, for instance, which is not only plain evil but also explicitly mentioned in the Bible.

Philip Ryken?
 
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